What Is The Last Film You Watched? (Older Films)

[publicist 4,643]

4 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Race is a completely different matter. Its a none-issue. Have as many black, hispanic and asian cast members as you wish.

 

It really isn't. But i guess you both have whatever issue with that movie, or rather its reliance on female characters in certain roles, and then completely botch your argumentation why that is (hint: nebulous statistics or 'studies' don't help your case). The whole notion that woman have no place in the military sector - a flimsy argument for a saga set in a fantasy world, anyway - isn't leading anywhere either. Weren't notions like that reason why we needed quotas in the first place? 

[Chen G. 3,943]

2 minutes ago, publicist said:

i guess you both have whatever issue with that movie, or rather its reliance on female characters in certain roles

 

I have no issue with the film (in terms of diversity) whatsoever.

 

Its cast with nowhere near a 50/50 ratio.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Yeah gotta keep the female numbers low, it’s just the way the world is, y’know?

[Chen G. 3,943]

The cast doesn't have to adhere to the demographic of the general populace.

 

That's what I'm saying.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

As long as they’re not assertive!

[publicist 4,643]

30 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

The cast doesn't have to adhere to the demographic of the general populace.

 

That's what I'm saying.

 

You mean in a world with green muppets and wookies? Your 'argument' doesn't hold water. Find a new one.

[Chen G. 3,943]

What than is your argument? that the cast should reflect the demographics? why?

[Glóin the Dark 1,218]

@Chen G., I second KK's request for some examples of films which feel "off" due to an excess of assertiveness among the female characters. If this Star Wars film is okay in that respect, then surely you had some others in mind?

[Chen G. 3,943]

My issue isn't with the female characters that aren't agreeable. You come to accept that protagonists in films, men and women alike, are not average people.

 

My issue is with 50/50 divided casts. Its jarring.

[Glóin the Dark 1,218]

Could you specify some films which are jarring in this manner?

[Chen G. 3,943]

I can't think of any, but I wasn't criticizing any specific film. It was a general comment.

[Glóin the Dark 1,218]

 

JWFan, where we can argue for two pages about non-existent films...

[Chen G. 3,943]

You really can't see, in the near future, people starting to call for movies to represent not just various genders and ethnicities but also their proportions in society?

 

Can you really not see that coming?!

[JoeinAR 1,949]

We need more films representing broken gender-challenged people. The audiences are out their.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,496]

I'm not sure where to post this, but...I'm  a rather good documentary on 2001:ASO, on BBC Radio 4. Check it out.

[KK 3,307]

34 minutes ago, Glóin the Dark said:

 

JWFan, where we can argue for two pages about non-existent films...

 

This pretty much sums up what I've been trying to understand about this whole debate.

 

Pages of over-zealous, largely unsubstantiated claims about sex and gender with little or no argument actually being made, to begin with. Much ado about nothing indeed!

 

Derailed JWFan threads used to be the best parts of this forum! NeoNeoNeo JWFan is no fun.

 

30 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

You really can't see, in the near future, people starting to call for movies to represent not just various genders and ethnicities but also their proportions in society?

 

Can you really not see that coming?!

 

Gender and ethnic representation is already a major factor in casting and crew for films today. Instead of making reasonable arguments about how these decisions affect, for better or worse, modern story-telling in context, you seem to be grasping at straws by pointing out supposedly "hard-proven" attributes about males versus females, with no real argument to make other than your belief that females are apparently "less assertive" than men? You then claim that there are various stats and studies that prove this, but go on to say that you cannot think of any films that have misrepresented females and their "level of assertiveness"?

 

So what exactly is your point here?

[Chen G. 3,943]

My point is that because women and men have, on average, different attributes (agreeableness being just one of many), they are drawn (again, on average) to different things. If the Resistance were to be portrayed as half female it would be ridiculous. Military organisations are, from the outset, less attractive to women, and so they won't be anywhere near 50/50.

[KK 3,307]

10 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

My point is that because women and men have, on average, different attributes (agreeableness being just one of many), they are drawn (again, on average) to different things. If the Resistance were to be portrayed as half female it would be ridiculous. Military organisations are, from the outset, less attractive to women, and so they won't be anywhere near 50/50.

 

Does TLJ depict a Resistance that is 50/50? Did anyone on here claim they should have? If you felt that TLJ did not have this problem, then where is this argument even coming from?

 

And more importantly, why would any of this be problematic in an imaginary sci-fi fantasy universe designed for children? Why does it matter if there are female members of the Resistance? Does it negatively impact the story being told? Does that offend females in the audience? Why does the fictional populace of the Star Wars universe have to accurately reflect gender representation of our current working military workforce anyway?

 

You're seriously overthinking this buddy. 

[crocodile 7,984]

I think @Chen G. looks at this more from the point of contemporary political situation rather than seeing it as an issue in the film itself. It's a complex topic, all of this. Lot of moving parts here and there. It appears that the entire discussion revolving around diversity and stuff like that seems to be devolving mostly into kicking each other in the testicles (pardon my non-inclusive sexist remark here ). I can see where he's coming from but this discussion will probably end badly.

 

Karol

[Chen G. 3,943]

6 minutes ago, KK said:

more importantly, why would any of this be problematic in an imaginary sci-fi fantasy universe designed for children?

 

The people making these films seem to think that diversity in these films is important, and that it does reflect diversity in our own society. I am all for it, as long as its done realistically. Otherwise, it will feel contrived and may interfere with people "getting into" the movie.

[KK 3,307]

34 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

The people making these films seem to think that diversity in these films is important, and that it does reflect diversity in our own society. I am all for it, as long as its done realistically. Otherwise, it will feel contrived and may interfere with people "getting into" the movie.

 

I agree with you about the fallacy of diversity for diversity's sake. And I'm all for a level-headed conversation about the demands of PC-culture how it might be a disservice to certain films. Being truthful to the story you're telling should ultimately be more important than filling in your diversity quotas.

 

I just don't think you were phrasing or presenting these arguments very well in your earlier posts. Most of it just came off as broad, sexist general observations rather than a well-reasoned argument about diversity in film today. You kept asserting the way you differentiate males and females instead of pointing out what that means in this context. So it's hard to grasp what exactly was the point you were making. 

 

37 minutes ago, crocodile said:

It appears that the entire discussion revolving around diversity and stuff like that seems to be devolving mostly into kicking each other in the testicles (pardon my non-inclusive sexist remark here ).

1

 

Well, it wouldn't be much fun if some testicle-kicking wasn't involved now, would it?

 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,496]

Sometimes you just have to let art wash over you.

 

 

 

Ps, the 2001 documentary was really good.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

45 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

My point is that because women and men have, on average, different attributes (agreeableness being just one of many), they are drawn (again, on average) to different things. If the Resistance were to be portrayed as half female it would be ridiculous. Military organisations are, from the outset, less attractive to women, and so they won't be anywhere near 50/50.

A military force made up of 50% women is ridiculous but lightsabers and alien monsters and magical force powers aren’t? And didn’t you say earlier that you didn’t care how diversity was distributed in films... so what the fuck are you talking about?

[Chen G. 3,943]

The people making the films seem to be thinking that it is ridiculous for this world - fantastical though it may be - to not exhibit diversity. So I say it is equally ridiculous for it to exhibit unrealistic diversity, or equality-of-outcome.

 

Gender diversity and racial diversity aren't the same. Women and men are far more different to each other (by nature), than people of the same gender across different ethnicities are. So with races you can do whatever you will, but with gender, you can't. On the other hand, diversity of gender is also much more important.

[bollemanneke 3,337]

And to me, the dominant female roles felt contrived. Wasn't JJ Abrams saying at one point that he'd be okay/interested in a gay character in STar Wars? Why do we need that? How does that help the story? Why can't we just make simple Star Wars movies that are not obsessed with the problems we think we are currently having? What's next, blind First Order fighters who feel frustrated that Kylo Ren isn't guiding them properly during a chaotic battle?

 

Just for the record, I am not at all advocating that women should be meek and obedient in every film and that minorities should not be represented more often. That would be horrifying. I am only saying that suddenly adding more 'cool' women to Star Wars in an age where everyone suddenly has a huge obsession with women and ethnic minorities feels forced. Why weren't these women added in the prequels? Could it possibly be because we weren't going berserk over gender roles back then?

 

bollemanneke, who is still surprised by the massive reaction his original post got

[Chen G. 3,943]

I don't have an issue with the existing films, as they are. I think female characters are important: women watching the films need a character to "latch" unto.

 

Gay characters are trickier because where a woman's gender or a black person's ethnicity are readily appearant, one's sexual tendencies are not.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Berserk over gender roles? You mean tolerating all people?

 

If a writer is interested in making a protagonist gay, why does that bother you? Why does there need to be an explicit reason for that decision? We don’t demand that being straight requires a narrative explanation?

 

Honestly, the sooner viewpoints like yours die the better this world will be. 

[Glóin the Dark 1,218]

15 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

Wasn't JJ Abrams saying at one point that he'd be okay/interested in a gay character in STar Wars? Why do we need that?

 

I'm a bit rusty on Star Wars, but haven't there been romantic relationships before? Surely you're not the type of person who believes that the depiction of a straight relationship is no problem but a same-sex relationship requires special justification?

 

1 hour ago, Richard said:

Ps, the 2001 documentary was really good.

 

Thanks for the heads-up.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

Bronson

Eastern Promises

A History of Violence

The Departed

The Neon Demon

Locke

 

In that order. They were all very enjoyable. For the last few weeks, I have somehow rediscovered the magic of a proper movie experience. I somehow feel like a child when watching an intense or emotional film. Especially when it's a film like The Departed and Martin Sheen lands in front of Leonardo DiCaprio I'm like "Oh my fucking god!" I don't know where it's coming from, but I love it.

[bollemanneke 3,337]

I never said same-sex relationships require justification. They don't. I said that it's ridiculous to burden Star Wars movies with these issues.

 

Again, why do we have more women in SW now and not in ROTS? Were women subject to mediëval prejudices in 2005? If I , as a writer, would be convinced a gay character or female general would contribute to the plot or work in the plot, I wouldn't conveniently wait till everyone is going on about these issues.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

You literally said why do we need gay characters. 

[bollemanneke 3,337]

Look, you're determined to read things into my posts that I just don't write, so I'm not arguing anymore.

 

One last effort: I AM NOT AGAINST DIVERSITY. I AM AGAINST FLAUNTING IT WHENEVER PUBLIC OPINION REQUIRES IT.

[Chen G. 3,943]

I don't really mind that its the films conforming to the times, as it were.

 

All I mind is for the producers to not get too carried away with what is, this far, working out quite well as it is.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

15 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

Look, you're determined to read things into my posts that I just don't write, so I'm not arguing anymore.

 

One last effort: I AM NOT AGAINST DIVERSITY. I AM AGAINST FLAUNTING IT WHENEVER PUBLIC OPINION REQUIRES IT.

You said writing gay characters into Star Wars is burdening it with issues. I’m reading what you’re writing, mate.

[bollemanneke 3,337]

Yes, indeed. Does Star Wars need breastfeeding mothers or people with burn-outs? I'm not against all these things, I'm against such things being forced upon Star Wars! Why don't you get that?

[Koray Savas 2,251]

No one is forcing anything upon Star Wars. You just seem to have a problem with the idea of characters that aren’t straight males, as if having a same-sex romantic relationship is somehow burdening a franchise that often features romantic relationships at the forefront of its narrative. 

[Chen G. 3,943]

It should be said, Star Wars films had three romantic relationships thus far: Han and Leia, Anakin and Padme, and now Finn and Rose; and only one of these works.

 

I think we have enough romance for now, heterosexual or otherwise.

[Glóin the Dark 1,218]

But Star Wars has had romantic relationships before, hasn't it? We're talking about the same sort of thing, only between two men or two women. It doesn't have to become "The Empire Strikes Brokeback".

[KK 3,307]

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

I don't have an issue with the existing films, as they are. I think female characters are important: women watching the films need a character to "latch" unto.

 

Lol you do realize how misogynistic this comes off as right? As if female characters only serve to make films more relateable to women...come on, man...

 

26 minutes ago, Glóin the Dark said:

But Star Wars has had romantic relationships before, hasn't it? We're talking about the same sort of thing, only between two men or two women. It doesn't have to become "The Empire Strikes Brokeback".

 

Right. There is a tendency these days for media properties to try and shoehorn homosexual relationships for the sake of diversity alone. When the ultimately goal should be to treat one as any heterosexual relationship would be treated. In that sense, gay characters would be most welcome in a franchise like Star Wars, so long as we don't spend the whole film highlighting the fact that said character is gay, and how "special" that is for this universe.

 

This is something that Call Me By Your Name does quite nicely, because it transcends the idea of the significance or the fact that it features a homosexual relationship and instead aims to tell the simple and poignant story of first love and heartbreak.

[Chen G. 3,943]

What’s so mysogynistic here, I have no idea. It always helps when you, the individual watching the film, can relate to the characters further through something you share: whether it means having characters of different age groups so you can find the one that you share your age with; different genders and yes, different ethnicities.

 

Female characters can also help men watching the film, certainly. It gives the film a sense of variety. Since it is a feminine trait by nature, women in films tend to serve as the emotional core and/or the conscious of the film. That’s not sexist on the part of the filmmakers.

 

But, if you were to point out in the current social climate that women in film also serve as eye-candy for men (which they absolutely are), that too would be hastly classified as misogynistic and sexist, so....

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

1 hour ago, Koray Savas said:

No one is forcing anything upon Star Wars. You just seem to have a problem with the idea of characters that aren’t straight males, as if having a same-sex romantic relationship is somehow burdening a franchise that often features romantic relationships at the forefront of its narrative. 

 

I want to see interspecies relationships.

 

What is going on down there?!

[Koray Savas 2,251]

27 minutes ago, Batman's Diet Coke said:

 

I want to see interspecies relationships.

 

What is going on down there?!

That is why Star Trek is better than everything!

[Marian Schedenig 8,172]

6 hours ago, Chen G. said:

What than is your argument? that the cast should reflect the demographics? why?

 

1) Traditionally, casts (like society in general) has focused on men at the expense of women.

2) It would be absurd to expect every film to adhere to a 50/50 male/female cast, so some will have more men and some will (or should) have more women.

3) Considering the fact that women are still a minority in film casting, and still haven't achieved equal status in society, I''d be fine with the balance tipping for a while to a larger number of women rather than men (not that I see this happening), just to draw attention to it and make people accept that there *can* be female dominated casts in non-"chick flicks".

3 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

Wasn't JJ Abrams saying at one point that he'd be okay/interested in a gay character in STar Wars? Why do we need that? How does that help the story? Why can't we just make simple Star Wars movies that are not obsessed with the problems we think we are currently having?

 

 

If having a heterosexual relationship in a film is fine, then why are you obsessed with preventing a homosexual relationship? What does *having* it necessarily have to do with *needing* it? You don't *need* either kind in a particular film (unless it specifically deals with that subject), but neither should having either one be anything out of the ordinary.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

2 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

Yes, indeed. Does Star Wars need breastfeeding mothers or people with burn-outs? I'm not against all these things, I'm against such things being forced upon Star Wars! Why don't you get that?

I get it. There are many movies that feel a bit forced nowadays: Rogue One, Shape of Water, Post, ...

 

Either your film needs a gay, black, female lead which is a jew or not. But decisive therefore should merely be the film itself and not the current social trends, hypes and controversies.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

You do realize that every film made is a product of its time? I don’t understand the mindset that one feels a female protagonist in a film is “forced” and not just a story someone wanted to tell in that format. 

[Brundlefly 2,385]

3 minutes ago, Koray Savas said:

You do realize that every film made is a product of its time? I don’t understand the mindset that one feels a female protagonist in a film is “forced” and not just a story someone wanted to tell in that format. 

It doesn't have to be, but it happens. Sicario is a great example which has a female lead, because it was a great idea for the story. I personally even prefer films with female leads, but sometimes you can sense the political correctness of a film to become more popular.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

More Woody Allen reviews soon!

[Hurmm 91]

Speaking of which, Annihilation had a all female cast without shouting about it, either outside or within the film itself. I find that commendable. 

 

I don't get worked up over the representation of females/minorities in other films though, unless it's really in your face. If you ask for examples now, I wouldn't able to list any. I'm sure there's probably one or two that irked me, but it's nothing that I remember days or weeks down the road. 

 

So while I agree that the approach films take in this issue can vary quite a bit in how subtle or direct it is, ultimately I don't think it's worth bringing up too much especially not for a film like TLJ. 

 

Actually, just to raise a point -- I did not like Holdo. But not because she was a woman. But because she held back so much information from the crew (or even key parts of the crew) that the whole thing spiralled into what it was. It was bad leadership. And to put a woman in that place and have her do that? It could cause the opposite effect of having more people be anti-females for high ranking coprorate positions. 

 

On another note, I've been sick at home for the last few days and people have come visiting and I've played TLJ to a few audiences. So I've pretty much watched huge chunks of the movie for about 4 times now. It is still eminently watchable, always entertaining, and the stretch from the 90 min mark right to the end is fantastic. The most entertaining part of any Star Wars film. Also I did not notice on my first watch that the little kid at the end actually uses the force. 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Maybe it was a magnetic broom.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Annihilation was more boring and pointless than Algebra 2.