What Is The Last Film You Watched? (Older Films)

[Marian Schedenig 8,191]

3 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

Why is not inserting the imperial march in ANH a good thing?

 

And throw out Leia's theme while you're at it, since it was written as a love theme, before it became clear that Luke and Leia are brother and sister.

[bollemanneke 3,342]

Leia's theme can just be her theme, right? Also, I really thought it worked when Ben died on an emotional level. I'm not really fussed about strict usage of themes, but that villain theme in ANH is just not interesting.

[Marian Schedenig 8,191]

7 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

but that villain theme in ANH is just not interesting.

 

1) I disagree

2) Even if it were, you'd have to rewrite half of the score to squeeze the IM in. It would be more different from the original score than the SE film is from the original film.

[Raiders of the SoundtrArk 2,433]

4 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

but that villain theme in ANH is just not interesting.

Ban him!!! 

More seriously making alternative/extended cut can be good, sometime some turned out to be better than the original (Avatar ft instance) but the problem with Lucas is that he changed his movie without keeping the original version available and that's bad. If he doesn't like it he's perfectly entitled to do it again and differently but the original version should stay accessible to all as an historical reference.

All of this to say that I'm glad he never touched to the music otherwise I would never have discovered it like I've still haven't experienced the Han shoots first properly

[bollemanneke 3,342]

If you ban me, I will become more powerful than you could ever imagine.

[GerateWohl 4,356]

Watched with my kids today Pokémon Detective Pikachu and couldn't help like watching a kids version of Avatar, and I would say, almost as good.

[Jurassic Shark 12,054]

15 minutes ago, May the Force be with You said:

If he doesn't like it he's perfectly entitled to do it again and differently but the original version should stay accessible to all as an historical reference.

 

No worries, I've got them on VHS. 

[Chen G. 3,949]

5 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

I really thought it worked when Ben died on an emotional level. I'm not really fussed about strict usage of themes.

 

Me neither.

 

I mean, why is the Tarnhelm theme used in this scene of Gotterdamerung? Waltraute is talking about anything but the Tarnhelm, and it doesn't even make sense in the general sense of "magic theme."

 

5 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

that villain theme in ANH is just not interesting.

 

It is and it isn't. There was an interview of Mattesino recently where he remarked that the score to the classic Star Wars was composed "with tongue more in cheek than most people perceive" and, thinking back on it, I think nowhere is that made more clear than in the Imperial material, which has a very over-the-top-evil feeling to it: a bit like the Nazi theme from The Last Crusade.

 

5 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

And throw out Leia's theme while you're at it, since it was written as a love theme

 

You know, its funny: if we did a tally, I bet every single theme from the original Star Wars had either been discarded or completely recontextualized over the course of the saga:

1. Luke's theme(s) became the "Star Wars main theme" (which is what its called as early the Empire Strikes Back liners)
2. The Rebel Fanfare started life as the theme of the blockade runner, then became the Rebel theme in the scoring process, and eventually became the theme of the Falcon (theory: did Williams see the original concept art for the Falcon - which became the blockade runner - and confused the two?)
3. Old Ben's theme became The Force (as its called in The Empire Strikes Back liners), which is why its so mournful sounding.
4. Leia's theme started life as a love theme for Luke and Leia.
5. The Imperial motive and Jawa theme were never to be heard again.
6. Several one-off figures (like the ostinato of the TIE-Fighter attack or the Throne Room) became themes after-the-fact.

 

But is it necessarily a bad thing? The same kind of thing happened in the Ring cycle. The theme that started life as the Tarnhelm became the general "magic theme" (or else, what the hell is it doing here?) The theme that started life as the Rhinedaughters' joyous call for the Rhinegold became the general "joy" theme (or else, what the hell is it doing here?).

 

Its fitting that I attached references from the Boulez-Chereau Ring, because at the time Boulez made the comment that its actually a great strength of the cycle "that Wagner finds new meaning in old themes."

[bollemanneke 3,342]

Interesting! Still surprised Solo didn't get a theme, though, imagine the possibilities when he saves the day at the very end.

[Raiders of the SoundtrArk 2,433]

14 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

Interesting! Still surprised Solo didn't get a theme, though, imagine the possibilities when he saves the day at the very end.

He did! Three years ago in a movie almost nobody watched...

But hey, better late than never!

[bollemanneke 3,342]

I watched it.

[Raiders of the SoundtrArk 2,433]

Did you like it though?

[Marian Schedenig 8,191]

34 minutes ago, May the Force be with You said:

He did! Three years ago in a movie almost nobody watched...

But hey, better late than never!

 

I still say that Han Solo and the Princess functions primarily as a theme for Han in TESB.

[Chen G. 3,949]

It really doesn't.

 

It grows out of Leia's theme, not out of anything we associate with Han.

[Marian Schedenig 8,191]

I'm talking about how it underscores Han's heroics more than anything else.

[Chen G. 3,949]

I can think of very few places where its really used just for Han: Leia is almost always around.

 

The only instance I can think of off hand is the very first statement, and in that case its really only there because Williams wants to preface his thematic material upfront: again, like how Gotterdamerung opens with Brunhilde Awakening (which is itself the Tarnhelm but nevermind).

[Raiders of the SoundtrArk 2,433]

4 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

I still say that Han Solo and the Princess functions primarily as a theme for Han in TESB.

I do too but it's still a shared theme while The Adventures of Han is clearly his own theme

That being said Williams is rarely used to write a team for the "second male character":

Ron Weasley, Finn, Han (originally), Sallah

[Marian Schedenig 8,191]

1 minute ago, Chen G. said:

I can think of very few places where its really used just for Han: Leia is almost always around.

 

By necessity, because the only time in the entire film they're really separated by distance is at the end, after Boba Fett takes off.

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

Old Ben's theme became The Force (as its called in The Empire Strikes Back liners), which is why its so mournful sounding.

 

I'd rather say it's always been both. Obi-Wan "represents" the Force in the first film, and it's used both as a personal theme and as a theme for him teaching Luke the ways of the Force. Keeping it around for the Force, which in release chronology certainly is portrayed as Luke assuming Obi-Wan's legacy, isn't that much of a repurposing.

[Chen G. 3,949]

14 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

Keeping it around for the Force, which in release chronology certainly is portrayed as Luke assuming Obi-Wan's legacy, isn't that much of a repurposing.

 

Its not repurposing, its recontextualizing. Same with the Luke material and the Leia material.

 

Sure, Williams himself says in the liners that it "also serves to represent the Force, the spiritual-philosophical belief of the Jedi Knights" but the character of the melody itself speaks much more to Old Ben's character, an old veteran now living in exile, than it does to The Force. The primary association in the original film is with the character of Old Ben, and the association with The Force is derived from that; whereas in the other films the association is reversed.

 

Its certainly not a big stretch, though. Perhaps smaller than Wagner's stretching of the Tarnhelm.

[bollemanneke 3,342]

49 minutes ago, May the Force be with You said:

Did you like it though?

Yeah, it was good enough, but I stand by what I thought back then: people didn't watch it because we've all seen enough Star Wars. Only Disney doesn't seem to get that.

[Raiders of the SoundtrArk 2,433]

Glad not to be the only one around here to enjoyed it although yeah it was too close TLJ and I think one Star Wars each two years is largely sufficient if not already too much

Anyway we shouldn't worry now Disney learned the lesson: one movie every two years but five shows a year

[A24 4,331]

 

Well-made, engaging movie about the hero of the Centennial Olympic Park bombing. Of course, Clint Eastwood can't help himself, the movie lays it on thick and ends in shameless moralizing. 6/10

[Raiders of the SoundtrArk 2,433]

Going in Style

One of my favourite comedy of the last years Michael Caine, Morgan Freeman and Alan Arkin make a terrific trio of elders trying to rob a bank. With the special apparence of Christopher 'Doc' Lloyd who delivers a sweet and hilarious performance

[Sweeping Strings 2,353]

The Howling and An American Werewolf In London - werewolf double-bill for Hallowe'en night that happened as the closing event of a week-long horror film festival here. Both are great examples of a turning point in practical effects, the latter in particular featuring then-groundbreaking transformation SFX.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,514]

6 hours ago, May the Force be with You said:

Going in Style

One of my favourite comedy of the last years Michael Caine, Morgan Freeman and Allan Atkin make a terrific trio of elders trying to rob a bank. With the special apparence of Christopher 'Doc' Lloyd who delivers a sweet and hilarious performance

This post has sparked my interest.

I'll check it out, asap, especially as it stars Ann-Margaret (sigh ).

 

Btw, dude, it's "Alan Arkin". Just so's you know.

 

[Raiders of the SoundtrArk 2,433]

3 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

This post has sparked my interest.

I'll check it out, asap, especially as it stars Ann-Margaret (sigh ).

 

Btw, dude, it's "Alan Arkin". Just so's you know.

 

Thanks typo fixed. What the heck was wrong with me? I'm afraid that my eyes are not as good as they were 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,514]

It happens to the best of us, dude .

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Hey look, it's Emperor Palpatine dancing awkwardly with Meg Ryan

 

 

[bollemanneke 3,342]

Star Wars 5, more unstructured musings.

 

Han Solo and the Princess is clearly a theme for Han as well. Loads of themes are just used for emotional effect anyway and that’s fine.

 

C3-PO is awesome. ‘Impossible man!’

 

Ford is bland and has great lines.

 

Billy Dee Williams is bland too.

 

There is some amazing French horn material in D major during the Battle of HOth, which is an amazing cue. Come on, Mike, come on.

 

Why is Yoda so annoying in the beginning?

 

THE SCORE AS A WHOLE IS FANTASTIC!!! Five years ago I wrote it wasn’t my cup of tea. I woke up today. My God. My god. I was a fool.

 

The movie is full of idiotic dialogue. ‘There is no why.’ Okay, so the Jedi are just dictators and the empire are the good guys? ‘I am your father, search your feelings.’ Oh, search my feelings? Okay, hey presto, you’re right!

 

Mark Hamill is awful. His theme’s variations are amazing.

 

Surprisingly, Han’s torture isn’t scored.

 

The lightsabre battle sounds like the Jaws main theme.

 

You can destroy the emperor, he has foreseen it? Why? Does Palpatine want to be killed? Why can’t he just be happy with Vader alone?

 

Also, I’m watching the special edition but the audio-describer says ‘voice of emperor:’ in the credits. That was Ian McDirmaid, right?

 

Bad looping in end credits too.

 

[Edmilson 7,433]

20 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

The movie is full of idiotic dialogue.

Every Star Wars movie has idiotic dialogue, but this problem is more evident in the prequels.

[Chen G. 3,949]

The issue isn't the language, rather its how the actors deal with the language.

 

They do it much better in The Empire Strikes Back then they do in Star Wars or Return of the Jedi; and better in those two than in Revenge of the Sith, where the actors do it better still than in Attack of the Clones.

 

It also varies across the cast members, too. For instance, Harrison Ford does his "thing" pretty well in Star Wars (minus some the post Death Star escape small-talk) and is certainly very good in The Empire Strikes Back, but in Return of the Jedi he's...not.

[Tallguy 3,383]

1 hour ago, bollemanneke said:

Han Solo and the Princess is clearly a theme for Han as well.

 

Hear hear!

 

1 hour ago, bollemanneke said:

Surprisingly, Han’s torture isn’t scored.

 

And yet effective. I miss when there was less score. Especially in sci-fi. Balanced as all things must be.

 

1 hour ago, bollemanneke said:

Also, I’m watching the special edition but the audio-describer says ‘voice of emperor:’ in the credits. That was Ian McDirmaid, right?

 

Ha! Clive Revill kept his credit!

[bollemanneke 3,342]

But that can't be right.

[Chen G. 3,949]

10 hours ago, Tallguy said:

Hear hear!

 

But its not.

 

Just listen to the character of the melody: its derived from Leia's theme, not from any bit of material we've ever heard in tandem with Han. Even Wiliams latest arrangement of the theme seems to have been written on the occasion of Fisher's passing.

 

Sure, it accompanies Han, too; him being one half of the pair that the theme represents. But it follows Leia around just as much. I mean, we actually hear it grow right out of her material, for crying out loud!

[bollemanneke 3,342]

Its first appearance has nothing to do with Leia. It plays when the whole group is off to rescue Han, not just Leia.

[Chen G. 3,949]

Its first appearance comes across as Williams just wanting to showcase his new thematic material at the top of the film. Its like how the first appearance of the sword motive in Das Rheingold has nothing to do with the sword. It doesn't make it any less the sword motive.

[Jurassic Shark 12,054]

13 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

You can destroy the emperor, he has foreseen it? Why? Does Palpatine want to be killed? Why can’t he just be happy with Vader alone?

 

The emperor has foreseen it, but of course doesn't want it to happen. That's why he tries to turn Luke to the dark side. Or something.

[bollemanneke 3,342]

So is it me or does the Empire continue to go against what the Force wants? I don't get it at all, if they believe in the Force, why not go with what it wants?

[Jurassic Shark 12,054]

They try to use the force for evil... because they're evil.

[Chen G. 3,949]

11 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

I don't get it at all, if they believe in the Force,

 

The emperor using the Force was a late addition, and so they can be excused for not having it figured out.

 

And the nature of the Force itself was still in flux: in the original film, its basically just a metaphor for believing in yourself (Luke can use it because he believes in it - and so can anyone who believes); and in the story conferences for Return of the Jedi, that idea surfaced back.

[bollemanneke 3,342]

So basically they never got the basic rules of their universe right. How difficult can it be to plan?

[Chen G. 3,949]

Just now, bollemanneke said:

How difficult can it be to plan?

 

Evidentally, very.

[Jurassic Shark 12,054]

It's just a B sci-fi movie. Don't overthink it.

[Chen G. 3,949]

1 minute ago, Jurassic Shark said:

It's just a B sci-fi movie.

 

Star Wars is definitely a B-movie, unpresumptously so.

 

The Empire Strikes Back is much more of an A-picture in its feel.

[Jay 37,346]

14 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

‘There is no why.’

 

 

That's not what he says.  He says:

 

"No!  Try not.  Do.  Or do not.  There is not try."

[A24 4,331]

38 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

It's just a B sci-fi movie. Don't overthink it.

 

Just like this one from the same year ...

 

 

 

[Jurassic Shark 12,054]

Exactly!

[Romão 2,274]

I think Empire Strikes Back is pretty much a perfect filme. Every scene flows, every joke lands, nothing drags, nothing is superfulous. The score is, of course, incredible and for a movie released in 1980 it hasn't aged, at all. Even Aliens has aged more than this.

 

A timeless classic and I don't think that will ever change

[bollemanneke 3,342]

11 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

 

That's not what he says.  He says:

 

"No!  Try not.  Do.  Or do not.  There is not try."

Yes, he does say there is no why before that. And then no more questions or something.

[Chen G. 3,949]

12 minutes ago, Romão said:

every joke lands

 

Some of the C3PO stuff, especially as the film nears its conclusion, gets a bit creaky.

 

But certainly there's nothing pervasive throughout the film that weighs it down.