.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Josh500 1,615]

What about the "Imperial March"?

Kidding.

But seriously, the reason why the good guy themes are usually better, more memorable, more well-written, you name it, is that most movies are about good guys defeating the bad guys. So the composers obviously put in more effort in creating the good guy themes, because they are also, in many ways, the movie theme.

Jaws is actually one movie where the "bad guy" theme is better. But then . . . is there even a theme for Brody?

[crocodile 8,010]

Villain themes used to be really cool. But recently it's just the interchangeable evil chords everywhere for the most part. It's not that they don't work, but I wish for something more distinctive. Hence the most interesting villain theme in the last decade or so would be Irina's theme.

Karol

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

And let's make it poll, because a forum without polls is like a Horner score without the danger motif: it doesn't exist, or it's too rare for anyone to care.

A lot of people say that, in order to be good, a film needs a good villain. And it's true.

What a load of rubbish!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

A lot of people say that, in order to be good, a film needs a good villain. And it's true.

What a load of rubbish!

It's true enough often enough. The problem is that people like to make it a rule. For example, I've heard complaints about the LOTR books by someone who generally liked them that the ending sucks because Sauron doesn't come out to fight Frodo. But the whole point and the thing that makes him so terrifying is that the moment he did that, or even the moment he'd thinkg of it, he would win. He is as evil as he is because he's so undefined, because he's so dangerous that everything that would make him more characterised would mean he's more active, and then there would be no story to tell.

In the end, how the villain is/has to be characterised depends very much on the story (not even the genre). And I suppose how strong the themes have to be/turn out to be also does.

[Brónach 1,302]

A lot of people say that, in order to be good, a film needs a good villain. And it's true.

What a load of rubbish!

Yes.

P.S.: For the sake of this thread and forum members, the Imperial March is to be left out of this discussion,

I was actually thinking on the Imperial March. But I'm sure there are more examples other than TESB and Jaws.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Quintus 5,399]

The Imperial March is just a military march anyway; the true evil theme from the trilogy is Palpatine's.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

I wouldn't describe the Imperial March as evil. Pompous is more like it.

Palpatine's theme is evil. Case in point: the Emperor's Theme in the beginning of the Shuttle Tydirium Approaches Endor.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The Imperial March is just a sped up version of the wedding march!

[Nebulan 0]

Written by John Williams: either. He has excellent good guy and bad guy themes. Definately the action music, he writes the best. Other artists not so much. Horner, Silvestri, Zimmer, all of them I prefer good guy themes, because the bad guy themes end up being too brash to really enjoy. I think the only exception is Goldsmith's Klingon theme is probably my favorite star trek theme of all.

[Faleel 5,347]

Written by John Williams: either. He has excellent good guy and bad guy themes. Definately the action music, he writes the best. Other artists not so much. Horner, Silvestri, Zimmer, all of them I prefer good guy themes, because the bad guy themes end up being too brash to really enjoy. I think the only exception is Goldsmith's Klingon theme is probably my favorite star trek theme of all.

Well in the ST movies the Klingons do not really act villianous.

[Wojo 2,453]

Based on what?

[Faleel 5,347]

In TMP they are defending their space from V'ger, in TFF its a rogue Klingon, in the Next Generation movies only Worf appears.

[Josh500 1,615]

I wouldn't describe the Imperial March as evil. Pompous is more like it.

Well, the theme itself isn't inherently evil, of course, but it is associated with an evil character, so just by association the theme is considered evil.

A lot of people say that, in order to be good, a film needs a good villain. And it's true.

What a load of rubbish!

It's true enough often enough. The problem is that people like to make it a rule. For example, I've heard complaints about the LOTR books by someone who generally liked them that the ending sucks because Sauron doesn't come out to fight Frodo. But the whole point and the thing that makes him so terrifying is that the moment he did that, or even the moment he'd thinkg of it, he would win. He is as evil as he is because he's so undefined, because he's so dangerous that everything that would make him more characterised would mean he's more active, and then there would be no story to tell.

In the end, how the villain is/has to be characterised depends very much on the story (not even the genre). And I suppose how strong the themes have to be/turn out to be also does.

Well, no not every movie has to have a good villain. But every good story (be it movie, novel, or short story, etc.) has to have a good, convincing conflict. Without conflict, what is there to tell?

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

In the movies, we generally encounter rogue criminal types of Klingons, right? Certainly not representative of the race. The rest are just doing right by their warrior lifestyle. Humans do more villainous things in the Star Trek series than Klingons, at least from what I recall. As members of the race, we have some point of reference and are able to more accurately judge the humans in Trek. I've never found the Klingon theme to be villainous, for whatever reason. It's a gallant sort of march. A pretty damn good one at that. Perhaps even more fitting than Goldsmith ever intended. By the Next Gens, Worf musically carries with him the legacy of his race. He's a pretty heroic character.

Being different (or, well, trigger-happy in the case of TMP) does not = bad guy.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[crocodile 8,010]

Not really. Joker's theme has two notes actually.

Karol

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Brónach 1,302]

The Joker has several motifs.

In this case, I believe the Joker and Harvey Dent music are the best thing of the score and have greater impact on the images than the Batman music does.

[crocodile 8,010]

That's true.

Karol

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

No actually it isn't.

I've seen the film a few times and would not have a clue what The Joker's and Harvey's theme are. I actually never knew Dent had a theme.

[Brónach 1,302]

I don't know if he has a theme, tht's why I said "music". They use a theme that sounds like JNH from the first film and other sad and afixiating music like in Watch the World Burn. THe Joker's noises are the "iiiiiiiiiih", the slow "da, da, da, da" like in the interrogation scene, the noisy "dum dum dum" on electric guitar that appears suddenly out of nowhere, etc. I noticed all of this in my first view.

Batman's music is just... there.

[Wojo 2,453]

In TMP they are defending their space from V'ger, in TFF its a rogue Klingon, in the Next Generation movies only Worf appears.

Huh. You leave out the Klingons in ST III, who murder Kirk's son and force Kirk to scuttle the Enterprise to prevent its capture. In IV, the Klingon diplomat seems more interested in a witch hunt against Kirk for his crimes and the implied usage of Genesis as a weapon against the Empire. And in VI, rogue Starfleet agents become pawns in a Klingon coup that threatened to split the Empire into civil war. The Klingons get a wonderful theme in TMP, but their screen time is less than four minutes because they're just cannon fodder for V'ger.

For those of you playing at home, the Klingons were the bad guys in III and VI, so that makes them the villains in those films.

This whole "character acting as an individual instead of representative of entire race" idea doesn't work that well in Star Trek. Captain Kirk is a human, but his motives don't speak for Cartwright, another human, who would rather seem him rot on Rura Penthe while their comrades take up arms.

Oh, and there were other Klingons in the Next Gen movies. Lursa and B'tor were in Generations, but since since Goldsmith didn't pen that score, the opportunity never came to use the Klingon theme to mark their final appearance as villains.

[Bellosh 3,418]

Jaws is actually one movie where the "bad guy" theme is better. But then . . . is there even a theme for Brody?

The Orca theme is definitely the good guy theme in Jaws.

[Faleel 5,347]

In TMP they are defending their space from V'ger, in TFF its a rogue Klingon, in the Next Generation movies only Worf appears.

Huh. You leave out the Klingons in ST III.

Goldsmith didn't pen that score.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

sorry but leaving Darth Vader's theme, The Imperial March out, makes this threads premise unacceptable. It is a great theme representing the best villian in an John Williams score film. What other villian compares? None. The shark isn't a villain (despite Josh's stupid comment), it's a predator but not a villain. The nazi is a great villain but the music concerning him doesn't measure to the Imperial March. March of the Villains from Superman is a terrific piece but again not to Vader's theme, none of the villain music in any of the Jones films is a match for IM.

I'm strictly speaking about Williams scores here. And lets face it all the villains theme's pale when compared to the Star Wars March and the Superman March, or Raider's March, or Hedwig's Theme.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Faleel 5,347]

I think the Isengard theme is the best theme of LOTR...

EDIT: No wait, its the Gondor theme...

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Hows about Nature's Reclamation?

[crocodile 8,010]

sorry but leaving Darth Vader's theme, The Imperial March out, makes this threads premise unacceptable. It is a great theme representing the best villian in an John Williams score film. What other villian compares? None.

Well, it's not a villain theme anymore. Darth Vader is a protagonist of the SW saga now. Not that we asked for it.

Karol

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Wojo 2,453]

And nature reclaims that piss, saying thank you for the nitrogen compounds.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,353]

Yea, it's very good :-)

[Wojo 2,453]

I see what you did there.

[Jay 37,353]

Ha! I didn't even mean it like that.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

?

[Bespin 8,480]

In the case of John Williams, I always prefered his scores written for movies staring a kind of superhero.

I think about Star Wars, E.T., Superman, Indiana Jones, etc

Heroic Themes written in a major key, that's what I like.

[Bilbo 3,709]

I wanted to say Bad Guy themes but when it comes down to it I do prefer Good Guy themes on the whole.