Creative Descisions in soundtrack re-releases

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Why is it that when a label does a re-release the only format that is deemed acceptable these days is a complete and chronological presentation, preferably with the OST presentation on a second disc and some alternate material.

For instance Varese frequently gets bashed for not always doing this. the dominant opinion seems to be that they screwed up, they are incompetent etc...

Not that long ago the DCC Raiders was a god send, the 1 CD expansion of Poltergeist was much lauded, and the Star Wars Anthology box set sold platinum numbers (not the mention is basically started the soundtrack re-release racket)

If any of these releases would have been done today many would simply complain.

Also participation of the composer also does not seem to be appropriated by soundtrack fans.

So is the comprehensive complete and chronological release the only viable way? Is any other format now inexcusable?

[Faleel 5,340]

Cue Thor...

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Well ultra-completists like Jason and Trent represent one extreme while Thor embodies the other.

[Jay 37,287]

Just give me everything, I can decide on my own if I feel some cues don't need to be there. Better get all the music out to the fans than have some sit in the vault for another 30 years

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

But if a composer or the label decides to give you less then that. Either for artistic or financial reasons, do you respect that, or do you think they blew something?

[OneBuckFilms 319]

I would respect the decision, and the reasons behind them, but for some scores, I feel a complete release is more than justified.

[fommes 153]

The artist, who is not the best judge of his own work, already had his chance with the OST. I think it's important that a re-release is 'complete' for two reasons: archival purposes and the fans/buyers of these CDs (who in these times have no excuse anymore not to be their own producers, in the sense that they can pick and choose, and make their own album on their PC, portable media player, etc.).

'Chronological' is a bonus and a blessing some times (when (1) every cue is good enough to stand alone and (2) it works as a musical structure), and a curse at other times (when (1) some cues had better be put at the end of the disc as bonus tracks or (2) Thor is around (j/k) ).

[Sandor 796]

If any of these releases would have been done today many would simply complain.

This one sentence captures the essence of today's 'impossible to please'-fanbase.

[Admiral Holdo 16]

I like having all the music available, but sometimes it's nice to get a well-rounded presentation that has all (most) of the good stuff, without much filler. But if all the music's available, I can assemble that myself, so it's hard to sit on one side of the fence.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The artist, who is not the best judge of his own work, already had his chance with the OST.

This statement is very self-serving. But it does not hold water for EVERY case.

Sometimes it is simply not possible to get the whole score out for the OST. Certainly not before re-use fees became more manageable. Also when a composer chooses to release a standard 45 minute score release , does that mean he automatically forfeits any say in subsequent re-releases?

I think Roald has a point.

[Faleel 5,340]

What about ol' George and his re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-releases?

[Incanus 5,713]

I do not mind creative decisions like moving a couple of tracks around on a complete release of a score if the composer thinks it will create a better listening experience but I prefer my re-released expanded scores complete if possible. As said above the composer already had his say when compiling the OST so he should leave the expanded version of the same music to the people who know what his fans like even though it does not exactly conincide how he would like to present the music.

Also it depends on the score how much I take offence or feel deprived of great music if it is not complete. There are scores from which I want absolutely everything since I feel it all forms a well rounded whole and in some instances I truly want to own only the highlights.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

George Lucas does not personally have anything to do with soundtrack re-releases for Star Wars or Indiana Jones. that is just more fan-boy hatred.

As said above the composer already had his say when compiling the OST so he should leave the expanded version of the same music to the people who know what his fans like even though it does not exactly conincide how he would like to present the music.

Again. this is a flawed argument. Someone like David Arnold wants to get as much music out there as possible, but is not always able to. Very often it's is not all in the composers hands how much gets released.

People are angry with Vangelis for not putting out a complete Blade Runner as it was featured in ths film. But it is HIS music, right?

[Faleel 5,340]

George Lucas does not personally have anything to do with soundtrack re-releases for Star Wars or Indiana Jones. that is just more fan-boy hatred.

People are angry with George Lucas for not putting out the original Star Wars Trilogy as it was featured in 1977, But they are HIS movies, right?

[Incanus 5,713]

As said above the composer already had his say when compiling the OST so he should leave the expanded version of the same music to the people who know what his fans like even though it does not exactly conincide how he would like to present the music.

Again. this is a flawed argument. Someone like David Arnold wants to get as much music out there as possible, but is not always able to. Very often it's is not all in the composers hands how much gets released.

People are angry with Vangelis for not putting out a complete Blade Runner as it was featured in ths film. But it is HIS music, right?

There is nothing flawed in the argument, it is just based on how some composers like Williams like to approach their re-releases if they get their say. I think most composers like to get as much as possible released if there is a chance, although those chances might be few and far between. Those plagued by enormous modesty or are too succesful to care or understand the meaning of a complete score to fans might not give a second thought to such a release. The perspective of the creator of the music and those who adore it can be radically different.

And who says people can't be disappointed when due to composer's influence or wishes a complete score is nixed? We have all our preferences in these matters. Some would love the scores in complete form to enjoy the full story from start to finish if the music has a good narrative flow. If a composer says no, we have every right to be disappointed. It is his music but it really does not affect how we should feel.

Also the labels have gone for the complete and chronological presentation more and more over the years so people, the hard core fans, come to expect such treatment for most scores. It might not be the only way but it is certainly a comprehensive way to present a score.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Music is a different medium then film Faleel. So apples and oranges.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[fommes 153]

The artist, who is not the best judge of his own work, already had his chance with the OST.

This statement is very self-serving. But it does not hold water for EVERY case.

Sometimes it is simply not possible to get the whole score out for the OST. Certainly not before re-use fees became more manageable. Also when a composer chooses to release a standard 45 minute score release , does that mean he automatically forfeits any say in subsequent re-releases?

It's much less self-serving than you assume (I could put my scissors in about half the C&C releases I've got). I don't care if the composer has his say, but it shouldn't be the final say by any means (unfortunately, album producers seem to want to keep the composers as friends though). There are indeed practical restraints, very frequently, but these aren't creative decisions, which is what we're discussing.

The ideal album is complete, but its order and structure should vary depending on each and every case.

[OneBuckFilms 319]

At the end of the day, my personal preference in most cases is for a C&C release, and many scores definately work well that way.

Some, however, don't work as well, and a few trims here and there can work wonders.

The scores I get in complete form are the ones I feel work best in that form. Star Trek II, III, IV and V are great examples. The original Star Wars troligy, IMHO, falls into that category.

But for many scores, such as BladeRunner and Terminator 2, I'm perfectly happy with the OST release.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I don't care if the composer has his say, but it shouldn't be the final say by any means

Again, what a weird concept. So an artist can create something, but should have no say in how it is released?

[Trent B 337]

At the end of the day, my personal preference in most cases is for a C&C release, and many scores definately work well that way.

Some, however, don't work as well, and a few trims here and there can work wonders.

The scores I get in complete form are the ones I feel work best in that form. Star Trek II, III, IV and V are great examples. The original Star Wars troligy, IMHO, falls into that category.

But for many scores, such as BladeRunner and Terminator 2, I'm perfectly happy with the OST release.

I agree with OneBuckFilms. There are some scores that the OST is just fine for. However, great ones like Back To The Future, the Star Trek scores, Star Wars, Independence Day and such definitely benefited from a complete release.

It is irritating when Varèse releases a single disc expanded version of a score, like The Matrix when it clearly should have been 2 Discs. I think the reason why it has yet to sell out is because the complete sessions are out there and most everyone like myself prefers the complete version for that score. Had the score been released a fully complete proper 2-CD set then I'm sure it would have sold out in a timely manor.

I don't mind when some complete releases have properly remastered OST's. I think the reason why a lot of OST's are with complete releases is because it's a obligation for the contract that the label made with the parent company for the previous score.

So far a lot of my favorite scores have been released in complete form and I'm thankful for that. There's not too many of my personal favorites left that await the inevitable complete release presentation.

Now a re-release like what Sony did with Titanic is just a waste of time and a stupid decision. Same goes for the "Ultimate Edition" for The Phantom Menace and the re-release of the OST for that score.

[John Crichton 4]

So is the comprehensive complete and chronological release the only viable way? Is any other format now inexcusable?

Yes. Next.

[fommes 153]

I don't care if the composer has his say, but it shouldn't be the final say by any means

Again, what a weird concept. So an artist can create something, but should have no say in how it is released?

At least no two final says, in my opinion.

http://en.wikipedia....h_of_the_Author

[Quintus 5,399]

Nine times out of ten I'm perfectly content with what's on the ost.

There were times (long ago) when certain cues evaded me, but they were few and far between really. Nothing to really complain about.

Avatar was the last ost which lacked a great cue from the film, but its omission didn't piss me off or anything like that.

[Admiral Holdo 16]

I should add (to no one's interest) that it's quite irritating when someone asserts there's only one 'proper' way to do these expansions (i.e., C&C with every last source cue and such), and anything else is inferior and a screw-up. It demonstrates a certain lack of respect for the people who produce these albums, the circumstances surrounding which we can only speculate about.

[Thor 7,466]

Why is it that when a label does a re-release the only format that is deemed acceptable these days is a complete and chronological presentation, preferably with the OST presentation on a second disc and some alternate material.

I have no idea why. I've been trying to understand this ideology for many years myself, but it's so alien to me that I can never understand it, I can only register that it takes place. And it has taken place ever since the turn of the millennium, alongside the proliferation of specialty labels.

At least they've started to include the A&A (arranged & abbreviated) programs as well, on a separate disc, which seems to be some sort of compromise solution for people like myself. Especially if the original album is OOP and hard to find. It's better than ONLY C&C.

At first I was baffled to see this development, then I was baffled to see I was in the minority in terms of hating it. Now I'm just apathetic, more or less. I don't buy many soundtracks anymore, anyway.

[Incanus 5,713]

At first I was baffled to see this development, then I was baffled to see I was in the minority in terms of hating it. Now I'm just apathetic, more or less. I don't buy many soundtracks anymore, anyway.

I think we all know what you think about this matter Thor, you unsung hero and champion of the OST presentation. Someday you will be heralded as a visionary, a man too advanced for his own times.

[Quintus 5,399]

The internet has given birth to an army of self entitled whiners, and film score collectors are very much a part of the parasitic virus which is sweeping through the media and entertainment world.

Yeah, this problem is much bigger than 'unsatisfying' film score releases and it'll likely end badly, one way or another.

[Admiral Holdo 16]

I can get behind that.

[OneBuckFilms 319]

Quint,

Standards for soundtrack releases has increased dramatically. Nobody expects yesterday's standards.

Personally, I have my ideals, and my own criteria as to what makes a great release, but I am grateful for any CD release that is well produced.

Even those that are not well produced by the personal standards I have, I understand the difficulties and efforts to get anything out period.

However, if seatbelts are the industry standard, I expect a new car to be equipped with them.

It is not entitlement, it is holding soundtrack labels to the standards they set for themselves collectively.

[Wojo 2,453]

There are some scores that the OST is just fine for. However, great ones like Back To The Future, the Star Trek scores, Star Wars, Independence Day and such definitely benefited from a complete release.

Opinions like that are difficult to quantify. We all know that BTTF and ID4 are among your favorite movies, and as such, you are extremely passionate about having every drop of music from them. Conversely, there are many who are passionate about the "some scores that the OST is just fine for," but you couldn't bat an eyelash at

Take Spartacus, for example. Many consider it to be the greatest film score ever, and worth the pretty penny for Varese's large box. Personally, I can't even listen to the OST and say that I enjoy it, so a C&C does nothing for me. That's just me.

My opinion is that if the original album was abbreviated and went OOP, then by all means, "re-release" an expanded version. Whoever wants the A&A version (Thor, etc.) -- and feels like he/she would burst into flame after listening to the C&C -- should go out of their way to buy/acquire the A&A version, even if it means dropping a fortune. The rest of us have no qualms (typically) paying the $20 to $30 necessary for these extended albums, because I'm too poor to drop $100 on a single album when I don't have to, especially if it's technically and content-wise "obsolete." Like Cutthroat Island but want to save $10? Buy the OST.

If they include the original album as a supplement (LLR does this a lot, FSM did it with Star Trek III and even with the "pieces" to do so with Heavy Metal), that's fine. I don't want contractual mumbo jumbo to tie up the album any longer than it has taken.

At the same time, if the best that a label can do is simply re-issue the original album, if that's all we get, than that's all we get. Intrada's Spacecamp comes to mind. Most of Kritzerland's albums are re-issues of LP's. No biggie. I don't lose sleep over not having every last bit of music from Honey I Shrunk the Kids because I don't consider the movie to be worth watching anymore -- watched it to death 20 years ago -- but I certainly never memorized any music to the point I feel sadness over the "A&A" leaving it out.

I only sweat over a handful of scores that are dear to my heart because I've watched them to death. The rest, I get by.

[Quintus 5,399]

Quint,

Standards for soundtrack releases has increased dramatically. Nobody expects yesterday's standards.

Personally, I have my ideals, and my own criteria as to what makes a great release, but I am grateful for any CD release that is well produced.

Even those that are not well produced by the personal standards I have, I understand the difficulties and efforts to get anything out period.

However, if seatbelts are the industry standard, I expect a new car to be equipped with them.

It is not entitlement, it is holding soundtrack labels to the standards they set for themselves collectively.

I disagree. I think it's acute self entitlement.

[Wojo 2,453]

However, if seatbelts are the industry standard, I expect a new car to be equipped with them.

Nobody has died from not having the film version of the Star Trek II finale without the Spock voice-over.

[John Crichton 4]

Maybe I've been staying away from the board for too long, but I for one can't find anything to complain about with the specialty label CDs I buy. They're all doing a fantastic job giving us all this wonderful music that we all thought we'd never get.

[Faleel 5,340]

(Intrada did it with Star Trek III.)

What?

[Wojo 2,453]

Obvious mistakes are the only way I have of knowing if people read my diatribes.

[Thor 7,466]

At first I was baffled to see this development, then I was baffled to see I was in the minority in terms of hating it. Now I'm just apathetic, more or less. I don't buy many soundtracks anymore, anyway.

I think we all know what you think about this matter Thor, you unsung hero and champion of the OST presentation. Someday you will be heralded as a visionary, a man too advanced for his own times.

He, he...well, I still have hopes that the tide will turn.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Brónach 1,301]

I just cringe when a piece of art is hacked up in its presentation. When I get a Rajmáninov symphony I don't expect it to be abridged and arranged. That is all from me.

The editing world of comic books is the one driving me mad right now. They have a tendency to get everyhting wrong. Fortunately, in the case of applied music, some people are starting to wake up, and even (gasp!) rerecord music they feel deserve it! With shorter, more appropiate duration of rights, we would be in heaven.

Scores for TV series are still a problem in our prehistoric CD world, though.

I hate CDs.

[Wojo 2,453]

I just cringe when a piece of art is hacked up in its presentation. When I get a Rajmáninov symphony I don't expect it to be abridged and arranged. That is all from me.

But that's a matter of perspective. What is the piece of art?

Is it every note written on paper that accomplishes a certain contract given to the composer?

Is it every note of film score ever rehearsed, interrupted, recorded, re-recorded, erased, taped over, raw edit, and then finally mixed?

Is it the dubbed, tracked, looped, hacked, and dialed out background music as heard during the film?

Is it the original condensed OST re-organized to make Thor and John Williams happy?

Or is it something else?

You can draw a box around any of those things, call it a "film score," license it for sale, and not be misleading. And people will complain. And nobody will be happy.

Perhaps when Rajmáninov wrote his symphony, he intended it to be in its entirety, and not have just the third movement and a bit of the fourth be sold as "Rajmáninov's symphony." That would be misleading. But if you sold that along with another disc entitled "Rajmáninov's complete symphony," then what's the problem?

[Brónach 1,301]

The problem is when "Rajmáninov's complete symphony" is nowhere to be found.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

I agree with Quint.

I feel it should be left with the composer. But obviously things like reuse fees, choir fees do play a factor. But I think it very much depends on the score. I have to be honest, sometimes the whole C&C presentation doesn't feel that special anymore, although I would miss some scores if they were de-completed, as it were. Sometimes it's hard to get excited about a remastered and complete version of your favourite score when they've already given DUNSTON CHECKS IN the same treatment.

The point about it being abridged, as above, doesn't necessarily fly with me. By their very nature these scores are designed to play alongside images, dialogue and effects. Truthfully, every C&C score is incomplete because it does not contain the other elements it is created to gel with. By that reckoning, the humble OST is a more honest representation.

That said, remove even one note of Empire and I'll fucking kill you all.

[Wojo 2,453]

Why then yes, that would be a problem.

And if the people sitting on "Rajmáninov's complete score" know what they have but continue to release edited version after edited version, with glee in their eyes and malice in their hearts, thoroughly aware of what they do, that is also a problem.

Truthfully, every C&C score is incomplete because it does not contain the other elements it is created to gel with. By that reckoning, the humble OST is a more honest representation.

A photograph of a lion is incomplete because a visual representation does not contain the other elements of the lion it was created to gel with, namely the claws, hair, giant paws, big pointy teeth, bad breath, and ability to kill and eat you on the spot. What's your point?

We knew that we were "missing something" when we signed on to be soundtrack fans and collectors,

No, by that token, all we'd need is one clarinet squeak and John Williams to say "this is an outtake to The Asteroid Field, good night" and we'd have an honest representation of album.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The thing is that the whole "the composer should not be involved" argument does not really hold any water.

We may not like it sometimes, but it's his music

[Charlie Brigden 7]

Why then yes, that would be a problem.

And if the people sitting on "Rajmáninov's complete score" know what they have but continue to release edited version after edited version, with glee in their eyes and malice in their hearts, thoroughly aware of what they do, that is also a problem.

Truthfully, every C&C score is incomplete because it does not contain the other elements it is created to gel with. By that reckoning, the humble OST is a more honest representation.

A photograph of a lion is incomplete because a visual representation does not contain the other elements of the lion it was created to gel with, namely the claws, hair, giant paws, big pointy teeth, bad breath, and ability to kill and eat you on the spot. What's your point?

We knew that we were "missing something" when we signed on to be soundtrack fans and collectors,

No, by that token, all we'd need is one clarinet squeak and John Williams to say "this is an outtake to The Asteroid Field, good night" and we'd have an honest representation of album.

No, the image is the final product. It does contain the elements because they're all there captured in that photo. The only difference is there is likely to be only the artist who has control over the photo, as opposed to the collaborative effort of cinema (assuming you're not John Carpenter or Clint Eastwood).

The thing is that the whole "the composer should not be involved" argument does not really hold any water.

We may not like it sometimes, but it's his music

Like any other medium, it's only his until we deem it otherwise.

It really gets me, though. Part of me thinks Doug Fake probably got death threats because he let Horner near HONEY I SHRUNK THE KIDS.