indy4 155 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 I just saw TPM for the first time in many years, and I caught a lot of stuff I was missing. Most obvious seems to be how closely Anakin's story mimics Jesus'. Now, I'm not a Bible expert by any means, but here's my take on Star Wars:- The Force is an all knowing power that guides us and speaks to us. God is an all knowing power that guides us and speaks to us.- Anakin has no father. Qui Gon suspects the midi-chlorians conceived him. Jesus is God's son, but born to the "virgin Mary."- Anakin and Jesus are born to very humble beginnings. They both use their skills to become very influential figures.- There is a prophecy that says Anakin will bring balance to the Force. Isn't there a similar prophecy foretelling Jesus' deeds?- Anakin, to quote Obi-Wan, is "killed" by Vader. Jesus is killed by his enemies.- Anakin figuratively comes back to life in RotJ and brings balance to the Force. It is foretold that Jesus will return in the Second Coming and do something good.You could argue that Jesus being resurrected the first time is a Anakin's resurrection after he is basically killed on Mustafar. Of course the big conflict there would be that Vader uses his first resurrection to commit evil, and Jesus is supposed to commit good. So perhaps Star Wars is Lucas' spin on Jesus' story: Jesus gone wrong.Like I said I'm not an expert on the Bible so correct me if I'm wrong. I hope the mods won't consider this to be a religious thread. If we can keep the debate to whether or not Lucas was intending to mirror Jesus' story, and NOT pass judgement on the actual religious content, I think we'll be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Crichton 4 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,713 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Well it is fitting that Anakin is SW universe equivalent of savior since John Williams created the Force with his Force theme, making him the Father, which he of course is, Our Lord and Maestro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wojo 2,453 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 The only comparison that I see is the virgin birth. I rolled my eyes when I learned of that the night I spent reading spoilers before I saw the movie in 1999. Because selling Anakin as a failed Jesus is just lazy and insulting. The idea of a spiritual power impregnating a mortal woman is not exclusive to Christianity, of course; Zeus and other Greek gods couldn't keep it in their pants when hot mortal virgin lasses sprang by. For all the knowing looks that QGJ and Shmi passed to each other, you'd think that somehow Qui-Gon was going to somehow end up being Ani's father. For all we know, Palpatine commanded the Force to dump a higher concentration of midichlorian juice into Shmi's love box one night, and the rest is history.Two things. First, GL didn't want to introduce a father figure for Anakin once he established that he and his mother lived as slaves with a proximity explosive strapped to their bodies to make them stay put. A real father wouldn't go for that and would bust Watto's chop first shot he got. And having Anakin's father walk out on them by claiming to go out for smokes would always leave the idea of Anakin's mystery father hanging over the saga. No, claiming that Anakin's father was dead wouldn't work either because we got fed that same BS when Luke was told his father was dead. Making Anakin's father be the Force was a neat tidy way of saying "Anakin doesn't have a father, it's not relevant, stop worrying about it, all that matters is he becomes Darth Vader." Secondly, GL is showing what a twerp Anakin grew up to be without having a strong father figure around to bust his ass whenever he misbehaved.The Force is never presented as the creator of the universe. Energy field, yes, midichlorian byproduct, sure why not, but the Force isn't God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted February 12, 2012 Author Share Posted February 12, 2012 Two things. First, GL didn't want to introduce a father figure for Anakin once he established that he and his mother lived as slaves with a proximity explosive strapped to their bodies to make them stay put. A real father wouldn't go for that and would bust Watto's chop first shot he got. And having Anakin's father walk out on them by claiming to go out for smokes would always leave the idea of Anakin's mystery father hanging over the saga. No, claiming that Anakin's father was dead wouldn't work either because we got fed that same BS when Luke was told his father was dead. Making Anakin's father be the Force was a neat tidy way of saying "Anakin doesn't have a father, it's not relevant, stop worrying about it, all that matters is he becomes Darth Vader." Secondly, GL is showing what a twerp Anakin grew up to be without having a strong father figure around to bust his ass whenever he misbehaved.He could've just made the father be a slave too, so that Shmi and Mr. Skywalker married and Anakin was born into slavery. It would've made the scenes a little busier with an extra character tagging along, but plot wise it would've worked fine. Or he could've had the father walk out on them as you suggested--I don't think that would add an extra layer of mystery to the trilogy, most people would just forget it.The Force is never presented as the creator of the universe. Energy field, yes, midichlorian byproduct, sure why not, but the Force isn't God.Whenever it's displayed or discussed, it can be related to God. And nobody ever claims that it's not the creator of the universe. In itself that's not compelling evidence, but Lucas is basically giving us a bunch of reasons to interpret the Force as God, and zero reasons to not interpret it as God. Plus, it's a metaphor, it doesn't need to be spot on exactly like God. If the Jesus idea is true then Lucas is obviously using it to convey some message--maybe the creation of the universe isn't relevant to this message.Here are some ways in which the Force=God:- when people are afraid, a Jedi tells them to "let the Force guide you." It is very much based on faith.- "Feel, don't think. Use your instincts."- May the Force be with you = May God bless you.- it gives Jedi strength, talks to them, etc.- it binds us together- when a Jedi dies he becomes part of the Force- Then the Dark Side would be Satan. Sith Lords have access to more abilities than Jedi (force lightning, strangling, the "ability to cheat death"), which is how Satan worshippers were perceived throughout history (people thought if you had uncanny talents or abilities you were a Satan worshipper).Also, John Williams uses Dies Irae, a Catholic hymn sung at requiem mass, to depict Anakin's slide to the Dark Side (his metaphorical death). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,625 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 I think Lucas tried to incorporate some random pseuso religious themes into Star Wars but I don't specifically see Anakin as Jesus.Star Wars is not the Chronicles of Narnia with heavy handed religious messages Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Not just pseudo religious, abut also pseudo political. Palpatine = Bush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,465 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 You guys discovered the religious references in STAR WARS just now (the Christian imagery/symbolism etc.)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Well it is fitting that Anakin is SW universe equivalent of savior since John Williams created the Force with his Force theme, making him the Father, which he of course is, Our Lord and Maestro.John Williams = The Holy FatherThe Force = The Holy Spirit/GhostAnakin Skywalker - The Holy SonOur Holy Trinity You guys discovered the religious references in STAR WARS just now (the Christian imagery/symbolism etc.)?I know! I found it pretty obvious from the start... Although as KM pointed out, SW is no Narnia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,792 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 For all we know, Palpatine commanded the Force to dump a higher concentration of midichlorian juice into Shmi's love box one night, and the rest is history.For al we know, Plagueis is more likely.Not just pseudo religious, abut also pseudo political. Palpatine = Bush.i think lucas himself said it was nixon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted February 12, 2012 Author Share Posted February 12, 2012 Not just pseudo religious, abut also pseudo political. Palpatine = Bush.If the films had been released today I would say Palpatine is Mitt Romney or Rick Santorum. I won't get into why the parallel is so strong, but it seemed really relevant.However, I don't think it was meant to mirror modern politics, because A) the story was written in the '60s (so perhaps there's some influence from the Vietnam War) and B) Phantom Menace came out during Clinton's presidency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Really, the politics of Star Wars are too lightweight and throwaway to be even compared to real-world parallels. Jesus Christ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry B 50 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 For all we know, Palpatine commanded the Force to dump a higher concentration of midichlorian juice into Shmi's love box one night, and the rest is history.For al we know, Plagueis is more likely.Yeah. It seems this was finally revealed in the Darth Plagueis novel. Plagueis and Sidious collaborated to create a dark side being, but the Force itself rejected them and retaliated by creating a being of pure good (well, sort of), Anakin.None of this is made clear by the prequel films, though. I think Lucas tossed around a lot of symbolism without really understanding it. The sloppy writing doesn't interest me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted February 12, 2012 Author Share Posted February 12, 2012 For all we know, Palpatine commanded the Force to dump a higher concentration of midichlorian juice into Shmi's love box one night, and the rest is history.For al we know, Plagueis is more likely.Yeah. It seems this was finally revealed in the Darth Plagueis novel. Plagueis and Sidious collaborated to create a dark side being, but the Force itself rejected them and retaliated by creating a being of pure good (well, sort of), Anakin.I wouldn't look to the expanded universe for concrete explanations. I mean, I think it's great that Lucas allows others to use their imaginations with his franchise, but I'm not interested about the facts that random authors decide to insert into the franchise.None of this is made clear by the prequel films, though. I think Lucas tossed around a lot of symbolism without really understanding it. The sloppy writing doesn't interest me.More importantly, I think the symbolism has a clear purpose. Thematically is seems to say "If Jesus can be swayed by evil forces, then nobody is completely invulnerable." This theme is enforced by the idea that Anakin is turned to the Dark Side by very selfless desires--he wants to save Padme, he's sad about his mother's death, he wants Palpatine to have access to due process rights, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Crichton 4 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 I always thought Lucas was just going with the easiest thing he could think of to make Anakin a Really Big Deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red 75 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 I've always had to roll my eyes a bit at Anakin having a virgin birth. It's just so on-the-nose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,792 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 For all we know, Palpatine commanded the Force to dump a higher concentration of midichlorian juice into Shmi's love box one night, and the rest is history.For al we know, Plagueis is more likely.Yeah. It seems this was finally revealed in the Darth Plagueis novel. Plagueis and Sidious collaborated to create a dark side being, but the Force itself rejected them and retaliated by creating a being of pure good (well, sort of), Anakin.I wouldn't look to the expanded universe for concrete explanations. I mean, I think it's great that Lucas allows others to use their imaginations with his franchise, but I'm not interested about the facts that random authors decide to insert into the franchise.This novel got cancelled and years later they approved it again. I think Lucas had to do with it.BTW... from the film, (ROTS) one could says that palpatine almost says it.BTW, henry... is that from the novel (that i have yet to read)? Spoiler tags MAN! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted February 12, 2012 Author Share Posted February 12, 2012 Really? Where does he say it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,792 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 That his master manipulated the midichlorians to create.....(his eyes move and fix on anakin) life.In the opera scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted February 12, 2012 Author Share Posted February 12, 2012 That his master manipulated the midichlorians to create.....(his eyes move and fix on anakin) life.In the opera scene.I don't think that counts as "almost saying it." He looks at Anakin because he knows that Anakin wants to manipulate the midichlorians to create life (to save Padme). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wojo 2,453 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Whaaaa, so Anakin is the Kwisatz Haderach now? A being ordained to come into existence centuries ago for a higher purpose? Pshaw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 If anyone's Jesus in Star Wars, it's Mace Window. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 So who's Padme, Mary Magdalene? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 You heathen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted February 12, 2012 Author Share Posted February 12, 2012 I did some research...apparently Jesus said "You are either for me or against me." (Matthew 12:30). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Were did you read that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted February 12, 2012 Author Share Posted February 12, 2012 As a disclaimer, no I'm not crazy...this website was the first one I found on my Google search: http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/kellmeyer/050530 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,792 Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 That his master manipulated the midichlorians to create.....(his eyes move and fix on anakin) life.In the opera scene.I don't think that counts as "almost saying it." He looks at Anakin because he knows that Anakin wants to manipulate the midichlorians to create life (to save Padme).That his master manipulated the midichlorians to create.....(his eyes move and fix on anakin) life.In the opera scene.I don't think that counts as "almost saying it." He looks at Anakin because he knows that Anakin wants to manipulate the midichlorians to create life (to save Padme).Saving padme does not need 'create life'.Palpatine is just saying his masters abilities.a) create lifeb) keep people from dyingc) etc...i think lucas put that line there in purpose, its not needed for the plot.. but it explains anakins existence in a sideways manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 Eh, I still think it's shaky at best. If somebody said they were able to create life, the natural follow up question would be "Can you stop people from dying?" That's why Palpatine looked at Anakin.Perhaps Lucas was trying to throw in that reference for fans of the expanded universe, but I'm not going to include it in my interpretation of Star Wars unless there is substantial evidence from the 6 films of the saga, and only the 6 films of the saga. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgyver 1,645 Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 The "force" Lucas included in Star Wars is just another bit of old mythology he used, the belief of all old cultures that there is an energetic bond if you will that connects and permeats everything in the universe.Lucas didn't invent any of that.The training scene Obi-Wan does with Luke in Star Wars, with a blinded Luke trying to feel the drones, is actually quite similar to some of the practical self-initiations of Rosicrucians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wojo 2,453 Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Rosicrucianism?"It's a household name." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brónach 1,301 Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 - when people are afraid, a Jedi tells them to "let the Force guide you." It is very much based on faith.I disagree with this. Believing in the Force wouldn't require any faith, it's presence is pretty much obvious. However it sounds unbelievable to those who haven't had contact with it. In hindsight, it's a similar to a dialogue between Frodo and Galadriel in The Lord of the Rings (I'm not sure if it was Frodo or Sam). Galadriel doesn't see what the "magic" is the hobbits talk about. It's all normal. To her, none of the "magic" was always just a story of lands far away you could or not believe. In the original trilogy the difficulty for Luke was going from the hobbits's perspective to Galadriel's perpective. This ties into Luke as the unchosen one who has to work his way up to what he wants to be.All of this would be clever worldbuilding. It's only based on faith to those whose relation to the Force is that it's just a story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 - when people are afraid, a Jedi tells them to "let the Force guide you." It is very much based on faith.I disagree with this. Believing in the Force wouldn't require any faith, it's presence is pretty much obvious. However it sounds unbelievable to those who haven't had contact with it. In hindsight, it's a similar to a dialogue between Frodo and Galadriel in The Lord of the Rings (I'm not sure if it was Frodo or Sam). Galadriel doesn't see what the "magic" is the hobbits talk about. It's all normal. To her, none of the "magic" was always just a story of lands far away you could or not believe. In the original trilogy the difficulty for Luke was going from the hobbits's perspective to Galadriel's perpective. This ties into Luke as the unchosen one who has to work his way up to what he wants to be.All of this would be clever worldbuilding. It's only based on faith to those whose relation to the Force is that it's just a story.I don't think so...there are plenty of instances in the Bible of people using God's power in obvious ways (for instance, Moses parting the Red Sea). So maybe "faith" was the wrong word. Those who have never been exposed to the Force or God = Han Solo and Richard Dawkins. Those who have = Yoda and Moses.And for the record, all I'm saying is that Lucas is paralleling the stories in the Bible, I'm NOT saying whether I believe they are true or false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brónach 1,301 Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I know, I know. I just thing that it it's an interesting matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff 10 Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I don't think Lucas intended Anakin to be a Christ figure. He does, however, use allusions and cultural references throughout the films to give weight to certain plot points - it's not unusual in storytelling to use imagery from one story to draw certain parallels to another. For example, the parallels we see in the Galactic Senate to modern day or ancient Roman politics help us understand the significance of the small steps Palpatine is taking toward dictatorship.Likewise, I think Lucas uses the virgin birth to emphasize one point alone - that Anakin is extremely powerful, just as Jesus, who was conceived by God, was powerful.If anything, I think Luke is more the Jesus figure in the saga. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 That's basically what I'm saying. Obviously Anakin wasn't meant to be a carbon copy of Jesus, but the similarities are meant to draw connections between the two characters. We just differ in our interpretations of that analogy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryant Burnette 654 Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Anakin and Jesus definitely have one thing in common: I am happy to be able to say that I don't put much time into thinking about either one of them anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jilal 569 Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Jesus is a better written character than Anakin. But in the end, Jack Sparrow kicks both their asses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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