Hans Zimmer's Best Themes?

[indy4 155]

Zimmer isn't less of an artist if he works with others, but his score is less respectable if others have worked on it? How does that make sense?

Take your least favorite JW score and your favorite Zimmer score. Most will probably say the JW is better because he did it all on his own. It's that kind of mentality that I don't understand, that because multiple people contributed to a whole, that the whole has to suffer. If that attitude was applied to the films the music accompanies, everything would be shit. No film is made by one man.

I've already addressed this issue and I've already quoted myself addressing it. Here's one more try:

The fact that multiple people work on a score does NOT make the score better or worse. But when you go to assign individual points to each contributor, none would get 100% of the credit. They would each get a portion. So pretend we're comparing a score by Zimmer and friends with a score by John Williams. Both scores are equal in length and quality. They would be equally valuable as works of art, but based on the two scores I would respect Williams more as an artist because he wrote more of the music in his score than Zimmer did.

So he is a lesser artist because he works with others? You say you respect him less as an artist.

Not in the context of the entire example. Here's another way of putting it:

Assume all composers start at a 0 on my scale of artistic merit, and each minute of music they write that I deem to be good earns them one point of artistic merit. If John Williams writes a 10 minute score that is completely original and all of it is good, it would earn him 10 points. If Hans Zimmer and friends write a 10 minute score and all of it is good, but Zimmer himself only writes 7 minutes, then Zimmer would have 7 points. I'm not subtracting points because he collaborates with others, I'm simply refusing to give him points for music he didn't write.

[gkgyver 1,645]

I've already addressed this issue and I've already quoted myself addressing it. Here's one more try:

The fact that multiple people work on a score does NOT make the score better or worse. But when you go to assign individual points to each contributor, none would get 100% of the credit. They would each get a portion. So pretend we're comparing a score by Zimmer and friends with a score by John Williams. Both scores are equal in length and quality. They would be equally valuable as works of art, but based on the two scores I would respect Williams more as an artist because he wrote more of the music in his score than Zimmer did.

So he is a lesser artist because he works with others? You say you respect him less as an artist.

That sounds about right.

Let's say there is a piano player, and his teacher and the people around him at his university say he is the most talented son of a gun there ever was, but he is lazy, doesn't take care of his talent, and restricts himself to only playing popular and simplistic music.

Now, on one hand, you have an extremely talented musician, but on the other hand, that musician is churning out nothing but repetitive and simplistic stuff.

And if I'm asked about evaluating the guy's artistic value, the only thing you can measure it by is the man's output, and that output is simplistic and repetitive, so I can only assume a low artistic value. It doesn't matter than this piano player could theoretically play classical sonatas, waltzes, whatever, inside out with great sensibility - what remains are his outputs.

So, when I'm asked about the artistic value of Hans Zimmer, I don't care what talent the man has inside him, it's not relevant. All I can see and hear are those terribly overbearing and simplistic outbursts of rudimentary ideas that are often held together by underscore of other composers.

It may be just me, but how can you speak about artistic integrity when you give your name for music that wasn't even written by you? Few people read the credits of the CD booklets, and only a handfull of people cares about the "additional music" credits. Fact is that the majority of people will believe Zimmer wrote every minute of score.

Artistic integrity also implies that you care about the artistic whole.

I can't imagine men like Williams or Horner or Elfman or Silvestri giving a cue out of their hands. It's about the wholesome quality of art. And I also think they had their pride.

I don't think Zimmer feels that pride the way other great composers do. He once said he (or "we", meaning film composers in general) was doing a little thing, a little more shallow than classical music, called film music.

I can't attribute complete artistic integrity to a man who, on principle, refers to his profession as being inherently inferior to others.

[chuck 154]

I've already addressed this issue and I've already quoted myself addressing it. Here's one more try:

So he is a lesser artist because he works with others? You say you respect him less as an artist.

That sounds about right.

Let's say there is a piano player, and his teacher and the people around him at his university say he is the most talented son of a gun there ever was, but he is lazy, doesn't take care of his talent, and restricts himself to only playing popular and simplistic music.

Now, on one hand, you have an extremely talented musician, but on the other hand, that musician is churning out nothing but repetitive and simplistic stuff.

And if I'm asked about evaluating the guy's artistic value, the only thing you can measure it by is the man's output, and that output is simplistic and repetitive, so I can only assume a low artistic value. It doesn't matter than this piano player could theoretically play classical sonatas, waltzes, whatever, inside out with great sensibility - what remains are his outputs.

So, when I'm asked about the artistic value of Hans Zimmer, I don't care what talent the man has inside him, it's not relevant. All I can see and hear are those terribly overbearing and simplistic outbursts of rudimentary ideas that are often held together by underscore of other composers.

It may be just me, but how can you speak about artistic integrity when you give your name for music that wasn't even written by you? Few people read the credits of the CD booklets, and only a handfull of people cares about the "additional music" credits. Fact is that the majority of people will believe Zimmer wrote every minute of score.

Artistic integrity also implies that you care about the artistic whole.

I can't imagine men like Williams or Horner or Elfman or Silvestri giving a cue out of their hands. It's about the wholesome quality of art. And I also think they had their pride.

I don't think Zimmer feels that pride the way other great composers do. He once said he (or "we", meaning film composers in general) was doing a little thing, a little more shallow than classical music, called film music.

I can't attribute complete artistic integrity to a man who, on principle, refers to his profession as being inherently inferior to others.

True that. You go into youtube and listen to Batman Begins and/or TGK and then scroll down to the comments section and you'll find out most of the time you'll read how "Hans Zimmer is a genius composer of our time" without even giving credit to JNH.

And I'm just gonna leave this here...

http://www.filmtracks.com/comments/titles/pirates_caribbean2/index.cgi?read=164&expand=1

How many people does it take to screw one light bulb?

[gkgyver 1,645]

I feel genuinely flattered that you quote a Filmtracks post by me I even forgot I wrote.

[chuck 154]

I feel genuinely flattered that you quote a Filmtracks post by me I even forgot I wrote.

Hey, I didn't know it was your article in there. I just remember something about that article I've read years ago on a different site but I forgot where it was so when I googled it filmtracks was the only one I saw that has it. But yeah, again credits go to gkgyver for posting that article.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

You just lost all credibility by including the common man in a discussion about film music. I understand indy4's point now, but you guys are going off on something completely different.

First off, no one is judging Zimmer on what he's capable of. Fuck I know what he's capable of? I just know what he's done. Second, you want him to put the name of every last person that worked on the score on the front booklet? That's what inserts are for! You have a nice pretty cover with the composer's name and then inside you get all the breakdowns. Hell, on Tears Of The Sun all you have to do is turn the CD case over and it's all on the back. Your average filmgoer cares nothing about music, trust me. Zimmer fights for the credits he gives, he doesn't hide it, he's proud of it. He doesn't take credit for anyone else's work. How the common man interprets it is their fault, not his. My stance is that I judge the final work, and am interested about who did what to get to that final work.

[indy4 155]

I agree with Koray on this one. The common man might attribute the Dies Irae to Jerry Goldsmith because he uses it in Poltergeist, but that doesn't mean Goldsmith was being dishonest for quoting it without announcing it to the world.

[Ren 75]

Wow. "The common man"....

[Hlao-roo 389]

Ren, you're going to burn yourself out...

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Wow. "The common man"....

What would find to be a more appropriate descriptor? Casual moviegoer?

[Ren 75]

That has a little less bite. ;-)

Hlao???

[Thor 7,492]

Zimmer isn't less of an artist if he works with others, but his score is less respectable if others have worked on it? How does that make sense?

Take your least favorite JW score and your favorite Zimmer score. Most will probably say the JW is better because he did it all on his own. It's that kind of mentality that I don't understand, that because multiple people contributed to a whole, that the whole has to suffer. If that attitude was applied to the films the music accompanies, everything would be shit. No film is made by one man.

I've already addressed this issue and I've already quoted myself addressing it. Here's one more try:

The fact that multiple people work on a score does NOT make the score better or worse. But when you go to assign individual points to each contributor, none would get 100% of the credit. They would each get a portion. So pretend we're comparing a score by Zimmer and friends with a score by John Williams. Both scores are equal in length and quality. They would be equally valuable as works of art, but based on the two scores I would respect Williams more as an artist because he wrote more of the music in his score than Zimmer did.

So he is a lesser artist because he works with others? You say you respect him less as an artist.

Not in the context of the entire example. Here's another way of putting it:

Assume all composers start at a 0 on my scale of artistic merit, and each minute of music they write that I deem to be good earns them one point of artistic merit. If John Williams writes a 10 minute score that is completely original and all of it is good, it would earn him 10 points. If Hans Zimmer and friends write a 10 minute score and all of it is good, but Zimmer himself only writes 7 minutes, then Zimmer would have 7 points. I'm not subtracting points because he collaborates with others, I'm simply refusing to give him points for music he didn't write.

To me, it sounds strange to evaluate artistic merits on quantitative criteria, like you do. Surely, it goes beyond that?

Incidentally, at this point I'm quite tempted to list all the Zimmer solo works, then the relatively few things he's done in collaboration with others (pointing out the bits that are done by those people) and then finally asking people to evaluate those latter works as singular artistic expressions. Just to give some perspective. But it's a lot of work, so I'll put it on the backburner for now.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

There's a difference between one composer writing the entire body of work and collaborating with the orchestrator and conductor (assuming the composer doesn't fulfill those duties as well), and writing one patch of score and hiring an army of ghost writers to work on the rest.

The latter has achieved some interesting results now and then, but the work is robbed of that certain 'auteur' value that a Williams score might contain.

[Thor 7,492]

There's a difference between one composer writing the entire body of work and collaborating with the orchestrator and conductor (assuming the composer doesn't fulfill those duties as well), and writing one patch of score and hiring an army of ghost writers to work on the rest.

No one's argued that difference here, but I refute your exclusively negative description of the scenario. It doesn't have to be 'one patch of score and hiring an army of ghost writers to do the rest'. It can actually be a fruitful collaboration too, a give-and-take, a symbiosis of sounds and approaches from several voices combined into one. That's a creative process all on its own. It differs from solo work, yes, but no less valuable. And it is to no detriment of the composers involved. Quite the contrary, it can display a specific skill that composers who work exclusively solo doesn't have.

Zimmer doesn't involve collaborators now and then because he's unable to compose solo (he's done most of his work that way, after all), but because a) there may be time restraints, b) he likes to recruit film composing talent that may later go solo and most importantly c) it's a 'band'-like creative process that may provide interesting results. He's even said as much in interviews on the matter.

[Luke Skywalker 1,794]

Another example.

Nobody questions The Lion King is one of Zimmer's best efforts.

Do you see anyone crediting Mark Mancina for his work?

He did some additional music and arranging, and he arranged Elton John's songs. The songs that made zimmer win his oscar, since we all know that academy members voted because of the chatchy songs. You dont need proof of this, you just know it.

[Thor 7,492]

Another example.

Nobody questions The Lion King is one of Zimmer's best efforts.

Do you see anyone crediting Mark Mancina for his work?

He did some additional music and arranging, and he arranged Elton John's songs. The songs that made zimmer win his oscar, since we all know that academy members voted because of the chatchy songs. You dont need proof of this, you just know it.

Actually, I've often seen Mancina credited in discussions of that score, but in that case, I think it makes sense to give Zimmer most of the credit, since he did most of the score. You probably won't see Harry Gregson-Williams receive a lot of credit for PROMETHEUS either, even if he wrote a particular theme for that film. If every 'behind-the-scenes' person should get just as much credit as the main composer all the time, it would be terribly difficult to discuss scores. At most, that's the domain of film score niche fora like these.

Now, THE ROCK is a better example. Zimmer is credited alongside NGS and HGW on the front cover and in the film's main titles (as properly as humanly possible), but many people -- especially those not into film music -- talk about it as a pure Zimmer score. It's natural, of course, since he's the most famous person involved and since he wrote the main theme, but it's also important to uphold the contribution by the other guys. Collaborative efforts are a great way to do scores, and it's the end result that counts, but I've never denied that charting what the various people did and how those pieces relate to each other is an interesting enterprise.

As for why the Academy voted for LION KING is something we'll never know and it's really beside the point and irrelevant in this case. It could be because of John's songs (the FULL MONTY syndrome), but it could actually also be because of the brilliant score. We won't know untill we ask the Academy members. In other words: YES, you would need proof for that assertion.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I like The Rock, but it certainly feels like a score being written by a committee.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

No one's argued that difference here, but I refute your exclusively negative description of the scenario. It doesn't have to be 'one patch of score and hiring an army of ghost writers to do the rest'. It can actually be a fruitful collaboration too, a give-and-take, a symbiosis of sounds and approaches from several voices combined into one. That's a creative process all on its own. It differs from solo work, yes, but no less valuable. And it is to no detriment of the composers involved. Quite the contrary, it can display a specific skill that composers who work exclusively solo doesn't have.

Mix every colour together and you end up with brown. Really, most of these scores by Zimmer, Jablonsky, Djawadi, etc are interchangeable due to their ambiance and simplistic structures in D minor. I'm not saying they're all bad, I've actually come to appreciate the fact that at least they have a structure and the composers were musically literate, as the alternative could be an army of Reznors randomly doodling on a keyboard like a piano playing cat and calling it 'music'. Yet again, the overall banal simplicity and common aesthetic of the MV/RC umbrella is the reason why I'm not an avid collector of their scores, rather I only own a few standout soundtracks that best represent the style including Backdraft, Radio Flyer, Crimson Tide, The Rock, Broken Arrow, Gladiator, Hannibal, The Simpsons Movie, The Dark Knight, Speed, Twister, and a few odd others. I couldn't imagine buying Clash of the Titans, for example, because I feel like I've already got it.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Wow. "The common man"....

What would find to be a more appropriate descriptor? Casual moviegoer?

Actually, yes.

[Wojo 2,453]

Wow. "The common man"....

What would find to be a more appropriate descriptor? Casual moviegoer?

Actually, yes.

I prefer schmuck myself.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Ren, you're going to burn yourself out...

Hlao???

He's still hurting from losing you all these years ago. he's afraid to say it, but he's had his one on you for all these years now.

[Quintus 5,399]

Wow. "The common man"....

What would find to be a more appropriate descriptor? Casual moviegoer?

Actually, yes.

I prefer schmuck myself.

Why beat around the bush? Gormless fuckwits, the lot of 'em.

[Wojo 2,453]

Gormless? Who took their gorm?

[Quintus 5,399]

Michael Bay and Jerry Bruckheimer?

[Thor 7,492]

No one's argued that difference here, but I refute your exclusively negative description of the scenario. It doesn't have to be 'one patch of score and hiring an army of ghost writers to do the rest'. It can actually be a fruitful collaboration too, a give-and-take, a symbiosis of sounds and approaches from several voices combined into one. That's a creative process all on its own. It differs from solo work, yes, but no less valuable. And it is to no detriment of the composers involved. Quite the contrary, it can display a specific skill that composers who work exclusively solo doesn't have.

Mix every colour together and you end up with brown. Really, most of these scores by Zimmer, Jablonsky, Djawadi, etc are interchangeable due to their ambiance and simplistic structures in D minor. I'm not saying they're all bad, I've actually come to appreciate the fact that at least they have a structure and the composers were musically literate, as the alternative could be an army of Reznors randomly doodling on a keyboard like a piano playing cat and calling it 'music'. Yet again, the overall banal simplicity and common aesthetic of the MV/RC umbrella is the reason why I'm not an avid collector of their scores, rather I only own a few standout soundtracks that best represent the style including Backdraft, Radio Flyer, Crimson Tide, The Rock, Broken Arrow, Gladiator, Hannibal, The Simpsons Movie, The Dark Knight, Speed, Twister, and a few odd others. I couldn't imagine buying Clash of the Titans, for example, because I feel like I've already got it.

Well, then we're down to the basic of personal preferences, and yours is a good as mine. My issue here is mostly with certain prejudices, and the notion (sometimes inferred, sometimes expressed pretty explicitly) that a collaborative effort is less valuable than a solo effort in terms of creative investment.

But whether one likes the music or not, is a whole other thing. Personally, I prefer to judge such things on a case-by-casis rather than sweeping generalizations.

[Luke Skywalker 1,794]

i just read that Goldsmith quote.

If he said that, i'm not one to contradict him

[ShowUStheHOOK 8]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfKLuE4HqyI

my favorite theme starts at 2:40

[Thor 7,492]

Ah, great! Back on topic!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Wait: did he write that Muppets score with collaborators, or was he on his own?

[Brónach 1,302]

It says in the video that it's Zimmer's and that one track is by him and NGS, which happens to be my favourite track.

This thread was a good idea, if there's any quality to Zimmer's music it's his thing for coming up with themes (I specially like his more quirky side).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeDcHgohrQ4

[bondo 33]

You have to do a little homework (Hans-Zimmer.com, ASCAP credits, etc) to find out who wrote what on most Zimmer scores, but it's out there.

[Jonesy 55]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfKLuE4HqyI

my favorite theme starts at 2:40

For my taste, this sounds better than POTC.

[ShowUStheHOOK 8]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfKLuE4HqyI

my favorite theme starts at 2:40

For my taste, this sounds better than POTC.

agreed. I prefer this over Pirates.

[KK 3,307]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfKLuE4HqyI

my favorite theme starts at 2:40

For my taste, this sounds better than POTC.

agreed. I prefer this over Pirates.

It's definitely more pirate-y and swashbuckling compared to POTC

[Jonesy 55]

It's the first time that I listen this stuff.

[KK 3,307]

It's a good score with some really fun highlights.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Muppet Treasure Island is an awesome score.

[publicist 4,643]

I couldn't imagine buying Clash of the Titans, for example, because I feel like I've already got it.

I couldn't imagine buying it because it's shit.

Zimmer doesn't involve collaborators now and then because he's unable to compose solo (he's done most of his work that way, after all), but because a) there may be time restraints, b) he likes to recruit film composing talent that may later go solo and most importantly c) it's a 'band'-like creative process that may provide interesting results. He's even said as much in interviews on the matter.

Zimmer actually wrote his best (read: ambitious) stuff when he still was with Stanley Myers and shortly after (PAPERHOUSE etc. up to K-2, which i think was largely solo, with a little help from Richard Harvey). The notion that the results of collaborative efforts are less is certainly antiquated, but still, seeing the discouraging quality of most Hollywood scores (and RCP plays a large part in that) and movies, i'd wager that the blame goes to moviemakers first. I don't think that musicians hunger to write (or better, produce) scores like CLASH OF THE TITANS, THE GREEN LANTERN, GAME OF THRONES etc. etc.

That's where i strongly differ from Thor: one can theorize about this matter till the ears bleed, but without movies going a less crass commercial route, there's no way to defend an equally crass music factory for somehow producing cool and creative band efforts. That's just not the way 90% of those scores are assembled. And Zimmer, like Spielberg, may act as the eloquent front selling his product better, but in the end, he's been a better businessman than composer for a very long time.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Film is a business first, and an art second. An unfortunate truth. Zimmer, on the one hand, has never been about money. He's scored plenty of things for free.

[publicist 4,643]

[Brónach 1,302]

That's why I say film is in its infancy. When some random guys guys can afford to create a massive superproduction because they want, then it will have matured. As it is, it's too dependant on money.

I'm also expecting machines to surpass actual musicians sometime down the road.

[Thor 7,492]

That's where i strongly differ from Thor: one can theorize about this matter till the ears bleed, but without movies going a less crass commercial route, there's no way to defend an equally crass music factory for somehow producing cool and creative band efforts. That's just not the way 90% of those scores are assembled. And Zimmer, like Spielberg, may act as the eloquent front selling his product better, but in the end, he's been a better businessman than composer for a very long time.

Well, there is more out there than just 'crass commercial routes'. Plenty of interesting things happening the film world outside the mainstream, Hollywood stuff too (and there's even a lot of great stuff coming out from Hollywood). Zimmer himself has done some rather low-profile films too, with few blockbuster ambitions -- in the past and recently. In fact, I asked him this very question in Ghent last year, and here's what he said:

[publicist 4,643]

Yeah, well...that's a knockout argument. While this is true now and was true then, i hardly see million-pages rants about films which are not highly visible blockbusters on messageboards, so that definitely has changed: the schlock of yesteryear wasn't the life supply of whole studios, with one JOHN CARTER almost bringing down the house and one AVENGERS saving it.

What Hans says, i hear him. But i also know what kind of unimaginative music RCP churns out (read: is required to) all too often, so let's not act as if everything is THIN RED LINE or DRIVING MISS DAISY.

[Brónach 1,302]

RCP should acquire more authority and force more creativity on its composers or the work they accept.

[m0hawk 1]

This is possibly the best action I've ever heard by Zimmer. Such an incredible build-up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8-XarUUxM0

But then again.... nothing comes close to King of Pride Rock;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szcQgfNEAdo

[TheHouseholdCat 4]

I like more Thomas Newman these days than Zimmer. Newman follows more his individual inner voice and hansu

is more fascinated his own brilliant composing skills. That can be heard in his music.

I totally agree.

Zimmer was great on The Lion King and Rain Man, but his more recent scores...

I did love the Inception score and The Dark Knight had some great moments, too. But Zimmer has become too used to the action genre for me to like most of his scores.

And collaborations... Well, James Newton Howard had some great ideas for The Dark Knight, so I can't complain there.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Ahem... wonder if some of you folks have wised up over the years!

 

Anyway, just how bloody great and right is this theme?!  One of the all-time best romance tunes.

 

 

 

That rising horn melody, like at 5:15, that's what one might call "epic" if that word weren't so tainted!

 

 

And here's more of that sense of melodic rightness, as though this isn't something made, but rather just heard, from somewhere, and captured.

 

 

[BloodBoal 7,538]

One of my favourite of his, along with the Hoist The Colours one.

[Loert 2,511]

To me, POTC 3 represents the best sort of "epic". The one that is actually a work of art and not a formulaic combination of choirs, 50 horns and war drums...

 

For the record, my favourite HZ theme is:

 

 

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

That one is magnificent.  Descended from Mahler, via Goldsmith!