The Classical Music Recommendation Thread

[karelm 2,903]

6 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

I've certainly never heard of this Gilbert Kaplan fellow.  It sounds like his story is pretty weird.

 

"Kaplan, a financial publisher with no musical training, was obsessed with the “Resurrection,” as the work is known, and controversially conducted it with leading orchestras, recording it twice."

 

What self-respecting orchestra allows an amateur to buy their way into leading them?  I would feel insulted if I were a musician in one of those.

 

Looks like the recordings were with the LSO and the VPO!

 

https://www.discogs.com/artist/1816847-Gilbert-Kaplan

Oh he's hated by musicians.  There was a very famous open letter from the NY Philharmonic slamming him as being a rich guy with zero skill.  This got covered all over in classical circles including Slipped Disk and NY Times:

 

"The voices of dissent began to crescendo. Several musicians of the New York Philharmonic confronted Philharmonic President Zarin Mehta to complain of Kaplan’s gross inadequacies as a conductor. Trombonist David Finlayson was especially outspoken, likening Kaplan to a con artist and skewering the administrators who had paved the impostor’s way to the podium in exchange for generous “donations”:

 

From David Finlayson: 'Mr. Kaplan displays an arrogance and self-delusion that is off-putting. As a conductor, he can best be described as a very poor beater of time who far too often is unable to keep the ensemble together and allows most tempo transitions to fall where they may. His direction lacks few indications of dynamic control or balance and there is absolutely no attempt to give phrases any requisite shape. In rehearsal, he admitted to our orchestra that he is not capable of keeping a steady tempo and that he would have to depend on us for any stability in that department. Considering his Everest-sized ego, this admission must have caused him great consternation upon reflection.' "

 

I wouldn't even call him an amateur conductor.  He's an actor who pretends to conduct this work only and the players found this deeply offensive because these were Mahler's orchestras and music that has its own cult following.   He was basically waving his hands not even knowing the orchestra was ignoring him.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Earlier today I was looking at the NY Phil online archives of all the program books from Mahler’s two seasons as music director (1909-10, 1910-11).  It’s really amazing to have access to materials like that instantly for free.

 

Another thought I had looking at them: every single one of them would be completely believable as a concert program for a major orchestra in 2022…..

[karelm 2,903]

1 hour ago, Disco Stu said:

Earlier today I was looking at the NY Phil online archives of all the program books from Mahler’s two seasons as music director (1909-10, 1910-11).  It’s really amazing to have access to materials like that instantly for free.

 

Another thought I had looking at them: every single one of them would be completely believable as a concert program for a major orchestra in 2022…..

Wow, that's amazing, please post the link!  I'd love to see that.  By all accounts, Mahler was a fabulous conductor.  We have early audio from that time period but as far as I know, no recordings of Mahler himself conducting.  

[Disco Stu 15,495]

1 hour ago, karelm said:

Wow, that's amazing, please post the link!  I'd love to see that.  By all accounts, Mahler was a fabulous conductor.  We have early audio from that time period but as far as I know, no recordings of Mahler himself conducting.  

Here is all 75 NY Phil concerts that Mahler conducted.  If you click the blue icon that looks like a book, it will bring a scan of each program booklet.

 

https://archives.nyphil.org/performancehistory/#artistprogram?npp:ConductorID,npp:SoloistsID=2236|false|false&contextParam=art:ArtistName/Mahler, Gustav

[karelm 2,903]

11 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

Here is all 75 NY Phil concerts that Mahler conducted.  If you click the blue icon that looks like a book, it will bring a scan of each program booklet.

 

https://archives.nyphil.org/performancehistory/#artistprogram?npp:ConductorID,npp:SoloistsID=2236|false|false&contextParam=art:ArtistName/Mahler, Gustav

Thank you, that's VERY cool!  Didn't realize he conducted so many concerts.  Did you ever hear that NYPO interview from the 1960's of orchestra members who played under him recalling him and his approach?  Was quite interesting.

[Loert 2,510]

16 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

Here is all 75 NY Phil concerts that Mahler conducted.  If you click the blue icon that looks like a book, it will bring a scan of each program booklet.

 

https://archives.nyphil.org/performancehistory/#artistprogram?npp:ConductorID,npp:SoloistsID=2236|false|false&contextParam=art:ArtistName/Mahler, Gustav

 

Wagner

Wagner

R. Strauss

Wagner

Weber

Wagner

Wagner

Wagner

Beethoven

Wagner

Wagner

Wagner

Wagner

...

 

How did this guy obtain my playlist?

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Dude conducted the Meistersinger prelude a lot

[Bespin 8,480]

Beethoven dedicated his 3rd symphony to Napoleon (the Bonaparte Symphony). After his self-proclamation as Emperor of the French, he deleted his dedication and added this one instead: "composed to celebrate the memory of a great man...".

 

If I may suggest you three other works from the "heroic" period of L.V. Beethoven:

 

 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

I love Copland's clever line about Mahler and Beethoven from 1941:

 

Quote

"One is always being told that Mahler was no Beethoven. Quite so. The difference between Beethoven and Mahler is the difference between watching a great man walk down the street and watching a great actor act the part of a great man walking down the street. The two experiences can be equally impressive, though in different ways”

 

It's on my mind because Mahler has finally somewhat "clicked" for me, thanks to the 4th symphony and Das Lied Von Der Erde.  I figured out that I can enjoy Mahler in a surprisingly similar way to how I enjoy Morrissey (lol), and I think it's related to Copland's observation about play-acting.

[Bespin 8,480]

Me and Mahler, it never "clicked".

[Marian Schedenig 8,174]

1 hour ago, Disco Stu said:

It's on my mind because Mahler has finally somewhat "clicked" for me, thanks to the 4th symphony and Das Lied Von Der Erde.

 

Interesting. That's exactly two Mahlers that haven't clicked with me.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

More Copland on Mahler:

 

Quote

In briefly reviewing the picture of modern orchestration one ought not fail to mention the influence of that remarkable conductor- composer Gustav Mahler. The orchestral trouvailles of his nine symphonies were highly suggestive to composers like Schoenberg and Alban Berg, as well as to the later generation of Honegger, Shostakovich, and Benjamin Britten. Mahler, despite the deeply romantic substance of his music, composed in long and independent melodic lines, not unrelated to the baroque contrapuntal textures of eighteenth-century composers. Scoring these for an orchestra that had no need for "filling in" harmonies of the nineteenth century, and avoiding as far as possible all use of orchestral "pedaling" effects, Mahler achieved an instrumental clarity that had no model in his time. The clear contrapuntal lines, and the sharp juxtapositions of one orchestral section against another — strings against brass, for instance — as we find it in the scores of Hindemith or Roy Harris are traceable to Mahler's influence. Schoenberg was especially insistent about his debt to Mahler. The use of the orchestra as if it were a large ensemble of chamber music players, with the notion of giving each tone in the harmonic complex its solo color was a Schonberg derivation by way of Mahler. These are but a few of the results Mahler's orchestral mastery has had on the composers of our own time.

 

The bolded section is exactly what I love so much about Copland's own orchestration.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

This makes me very happy: the New York Times highlighting one of my beloved midcentury American composers, Lukas Foss, for his centennial.

 

They highlight the very symphony that I recommended in this thread a month or so ago!

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/02/arts/music/lukas-foss-carnegie-hall.html

Quote

Symphony No. 1 (1944)

“I think here he’s not only reflecting his gratitude to the United States,” Falletta said, “but you also see a kind of rhythmic vitality that’s much more like Stravinsky, and a counterpoint he must have honed with Hindemith. The tradition of the symphony is there, but the second movement is blues — in a classical symphony! And the third movement is jazz, but it’s a Scherzo, with a trio and everything. There’s structural tightness, but it’s always unpredictable. I don’t think he was one to break convention, but he really loved to bend it.”

 

Foss is interesting because, for me, his best work came at the beginning and the end of his career.  The middle period is when he was far too embroiled in the experimentalism of interesting but best forgotten works like "Time Cycle" and "Echoi."   I love his music of the 40s and 50s and then the 80s and 90s.  But one thing that held true across his life is just an infectious joy in the writing and making of music.

 

One piece (among many) that they NYT article doesn't mention that I particularly like is his concerto for guitar and orchestra from the late 1980s titled "American Landscapes."

 

 

[BB-8 3,461]

I remember hearing about Gilbert Kaplan back then. It was all the rave. My dad got the recording of Mahler 2 with LSO under Kaplan (with Kaplan posing on the cover). As a youngster I didn't quite get the point as I would have chosen Mahler 3 or the full cycle if I had the money to hire the LSO. I still can't understand this obsession about a single symphony.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

TBF that's basically me and Copland's Third.  I'd probably hire an orchestra to let me conduct it too if I had that kinda dough 

[Chen G. 3,943]

On 28/09/2022 at 9:53 PM, Disco Stu said:

Dude conducted the Meistersinger prelude a lot

 

As well one should, as well one should...

[Tom Guernsey 2,280]

8 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

This makes me very happy: the New York Times highlighting one of my beloved midcentury American composers, Lukas Foss, for his centennial.

 

They highlight the very symphony that I recommended in this thread a month or so ago!

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/02/arts/music/lukas-foss-carnegie-hall.html

 

Foss is interesting because, for me, his best work came at the beginning and the end of his career.  The middle period is when he was far too embroiled in the experimentalism of interesting but best forgotten works like "Time Cycle" and "Echoi."   I love his music of the 40s and 50s and then the 80s and 90s.  But one thing that held true across his life is just an infectious joy in the writing and making of music.

 

One piece (among many) that they NYT article doesn't mention that I particularly like is his concerto for guitar and orchestra from the late 1980s titled "American Landscapes."

 

 

Are his symphonies worth investigating? I've had them on my Amazon wishlist for years but they always seemed to be out of stock. Oddly Presto doesn't have the Boston Modern Orchestra Project (but then neither does the BMOP's own website!) but 7Digital does for a tenner which seems a bargain... Presto has the recording of the Guitar Concerto you posted (which I quite liked), although it's oddly pricey.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

1 hour ago, Tom Guernsey said:

Are his symphonies worth investigating? I've had them on my Amazon wishlist for years but they always seemed to be out of stock. Oddly Presto doesn't have the Boston Modern Orchestra Project (but then neither does the BMOP's own website!) but 7Digital does for a tenner which seems a bargain... Presto has the recording of the Guitar Concerto you posted (which I quite liked), although it's oddly pricey.

I adore that BMOP album of his symphonies.  It’s how I discovered my love for Foss.

 

In general, the BMOP is a real gift for someone like me with an interest in these neglected American composers.  I support them whenever I can. 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

The image I can't get out my head when hearing the trumpets from 10:17 - 10:35

 

 

 

[Marian Schedenig 8,174]

 

[publicist 4,643]

 

[karelm 2,903]

On 03/10/2022 at 9:42 AM, BB-8 said:

I remember hearing about Gilbert Kaplan back then. It was all the rave. My dad got the recording of Mahler 2 with LSO under Kaplan (with Kaplan posing on the cover). As a youngster I didn't quite get the point as I would have chosen Mahler 3 or the full cycle if I had the money to hire the LSO. I still can't understand this obsession about a single symphony.

Not sure I follow your point but M2 is definitely a standout amongst a great cycle.  It's far better than M8 and when I was a student, this work singularly kept being referenced as the work that inspired the composer to pursue their craft.  Mahler was probably the most frequently named composer and M2 the most frequently named work.  It's special.  For me personally, it was my first professional concert and a life changing experience but again, I've heard similar comments from other musicians.  Think Star Wars 1977.  Before there were sequels and Disney and all that - it was a mind-blowing experience.  It's hard to explain to someone today what it was like to experience Star Wars when there was no such thing, just how impactful it was.  There was nothing quite like it.  I personally think of M2 as CEOTK, the pinnacle of what JW did in his golden period.  The film and story have flaws and other JW scores have done better in any one of his styles but in that score - we have all the best of his style at his peak in a singular work.

[BB-8 3,461]

6 hours ago, karelm said:

Not sure I follow your point but M2 is definitely a standout amongst a great cycle.  It's far better than M8 and when I was a student, this work singularly kept being referenced as the work that inspired the composer to pursue their craft.  Mahler was probably the most frequently named composer and M2 the most frequently named work.  It's special.  For me personally, it was my first professional concert and a life changing experience but again, I've heard similar comments from other musicians.  Think Star Wars 1977.  Before there were sequels and Disney and all that - it was a mind-blowing experience.  It's hard to explain to someone today what it was like to experience Star Wars when there was no such thing, just how impactful it was.  There was nothing quite like it.  I personally think of M2 as CEOTK, the pinnacle of what JW did in his golden period.  The film and story have flaws and other JW scores have done better in any one of his styles but in that score - we have all the best of his style at his peak in a singular work.

Yeah, but MKL, M1 and R1 already contain a lot what is provided in M2.

 

For me, M3 (1st & last movements) is when Mahler became Mahler.

[BB-8 3,461]

On 04/10/2022 at 4:34 PM, Disco Stu said:

The image I can't get out my head when hearing the trumpets from 10:17 - 10:35

 

 

 

 

 

[Marian Schedenig 8,174]

15 hours ago, BB-8 said:

Yeah, but MKL, M1 and R1 already contain a lot what is provided in M2.

 

R1 being Rott? Some significant bits of M2 are straight out of Rott's symphony, which Mahler himself acknowledged was where his own idea of what a symphony should be was first realised, and which he intended to perform himself (but then didn't - perhaps because he realised he copied too much from it?), the Rott symphony left traces much further into Mahler's own works.

[BB-8 3,461]

8 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

R1 being Rott? Some significant bits of M2 are straight out of Rott's symphony, which Mahler himself acknowledged was where his own idea of what a symphony should be was first realised, and which he intended to perform himself (but then didn't - perhaps because he realised he copied too much from it?), the Rott symphony left traces much further into Mahler's own works.

Yes, R1=Rott, MKL=Mahler Das Klagende Lied.

 

I agree.

[Marian Schedenig 8,174]

15 hours ago, BB-8 said:

Yes, R1=Rott, MKL=Mahler Das Klagende Lied.

 

I agree.

 

I had typed my entire paragraph, but leading with "What does R1 stand for?", until I realised that Rott starts with an R… (and not just in Latin)

[BB-8 3,461]

And I hadn't noticed that R1 could have been read as Rogue One.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Tonight’s lullaby: 

 

the slow movement from Paul Creston’s lovely saxophone quartet 

 

 

[karelm 2,903]

 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

One of my absolute favorite pieces of pre-Copland (meaning pre-1920s) American classical music, this Scherzo movement by Charles Tomlinson Griffes, written in 1913.

 

 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

This Satie piece is like if you took the rigid, mechanical left hand of the Gymnopédies and combined it with the free, expressive right hand of the other Gnossiennes.  A very beguiling hybrid of the two styles.

 

 

[publicist 4,643]

 

[karelm 2,903]

6 hours ago, publicist said:

 

He's such a fantastic composer with incredible range!  I've not heard anything from him that didn't impress me.

[Marian Schedenig 8,174]

 

Three years after she took over as chief conductor of the RSO Wien, I finally got to see Marin Alsop live in concert tonight, thanks to a friend having a spare ticket. My main draw were Bernstein's Chichester Psalms (along with Make our garden grow from Candide), but the first half of the concert featured Bartók's Wooden Prince suite, and a particularly fun discovery for me, Poulenc's Concert champêtre for harpsichord and orchestra. A very humorous work, with lots of funny twists and turns, that work especially well in a live setting (where I find it easier to give the music my full attention):

 

 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Every time I listen to this piece by Poulenc, either in its original piano form or this later chamber arrangement, I'm struck by how contemporary it feels in a weird way.  It was written around 1920, but it sounds like it was written in 2022 by someone trying to sound like 1920.  If I heard it in a film, I would assume it was a Desplat score or something.

 

 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Does there exist a book for Der Ring des Nibelungen that's like Doug Adams' The Music of The Lord of the Rings Films?  One that sets out all the leitmotifs and themes (both musical and literary) for the saga and then walks through the stories scene by scene explaining the uses of the motifs?

[Tom Guernsey 2,280]

5 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

Does there exist a book for Der Ring des Nibelungen that's like Doug Adams' The Music of The Lord of the Rings Films?  One that sets out all the leitmotifs and themes (both musical and literary) for the saga and then walks through the stories scene by scene explaining the uses of the motifs?

There definitely is as my friend has a copy of it but I’m on holiday so can’t immediately check. If nobody else responds, message me in a couple of weeks and I’ll ask lol. 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

2 hours ago, Tom Guernsey said:

There definitely is as my friend has a copy of it but I’m on holiday so can’t immediately check. If nobody else responds, message me in a couple of weeks and I’ll ask lol. 

 

I found this at the Internet Archive, a book from 1905 lol.  It's ok but not nearly as well-organized and detailed as something like Adams did.  Maybe Doug should just do one himself!  What a hot market there is for books about 19th century opera!  

 

https://archive.org/details/aguidetoringnib00aldrgoog/page/n61/mode/2up

[Marian Schedenig 8,174]

I've been wondering about something similar. I know there are websites about the Ring's motifs - some of them are so old that they're almost impossible to navigate, or may even not be online anymore. Here's one I found with Google just now: https://richard-wagner-werkstatt.com/leitmotive-2/. Surely there must be better material available somehow. A book would be nice, but I imagine a well-made website would be even better, because it could provide "live" playback examples (a book would have to provide timestamps for specific recordings).

 

I figured there should at least be some of those nice score analysis/breakdown videos on YouTube,  but when I tried looking for one for the Götterdämmerung finale, I couldn't find anything like that at all. Something like that would be nice because it also could include Wagner's stage directions at the correct timestamps.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

9 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

I've been wondering about something similar. I know there are websites about the Ring's motifs - some of them are so old that they're almost impossible to navigate, or may even not be online anymore. Here's one I found with Google just now: https://richard-wagner-werkstatt.com/leitmotive-2/. Surely there must be better material available somehow. A book would be nice, but I imagine a well-made website would be even better, because it could provide "live" playback examples (a book would have to provide timestamps for specific recordings).

 

I figured there should at least be some of those nice score analysis/breakdown videos on YouTube,  but when I tried looking for one for the Götterdämmerung finale, I couldn't find anything like that at all. Something like that would be nice because it also could include Wagner's stage directions at the correct timestamps.

 

I too have been surprised that I haven't found a really great resource searching around the internet.  Wagner has such a large and very devoted fanbase, you'd think there'd be multiple competing online guides.  But mostly you find stuff that's either incomplete or lacking in detail.

 

 

I did also find this book published in 1889 that's a guide to the motives and story by a fella named Gustav Kobbé

 

https://archive.org/details/aguidetoringnib00aldrgoog/page/n61/mode/2up

 

Best website on the internet!

[GerateWohl 4,339]

A week ago at the Berliner Philharmonie I listened to Bartok for the first time. Violin Concert ó No. 2. Brillant soloist. Great work.

 

[publicist 4,643]

I'm not sure i would recommend it, but this new symphony by Michael Kurek, which would be labeled 'neo-romantic' in classical genre terms, sure sounds like the guy listened to too much film music (the variety of silver age updates golden age).

[Tom Guernsey 2,280]

2 hours ago, publicist said:

I'm not sure i would recommend it, but this new symphony by Michael Kurek, which would be labeled 'neo-romantic' in classical genre terms, sure sounds like the guy listened to too much film music (the variety of silver age updates golden age).

This kinda sounds like it should be worth a listen. Is it just not very good or not very memorable?

[publicist 4,643]

1 hour ago, Tom Guernsey said:

This kinda sounds like it should be worth a listen. Is it just not very good or not very memorable?

 

The repertoire value is low (it's all very familiar), but it isn't bad. There isn't really a wow moment, so it all depends on how often you can listen to your favourite idioms without tiring of the ingredients.

[Tom Guernsey 2,280]

42 minutes ago, publicist said:

 

The repertoire value is low (it's all very familiar), but it isn't bad. There isn't really a wow moment, so it all depends on how often you can listen to your favourite idioms without tiring of the ingredients.

Fair. I might check it out but there’s lots of pretty decent film music-esque modern classical to enjoy so guess there’s not much point wasting time on the less good stuff. 

[Loert 2,510]

On 28/10/2022 at 3:46 PM, Disco Stu said:

Does there exist a book for Der Ring des Nibelungen that's like Doug Adams' The Music of The Lord of the Rings Films?  One that sets out all the leitmotifs and themes (both musical and literary) for the saga and then walks through the stories scene by scene explaining the uses of the motifs?

 

You should give https://www.wagnerheim.com a try (by Paul Heise). It's very comprehensive, though keep in mind that it's one man's interpretation. Indeed, it's impossible to just "set out" all the themes and leitmotifs of The Ring, because there isn't any agreement on what they are.

 

Here's a relevant excerpt from The Ring of Truth, by the late Roger Scruton:

 

Quote

More recently, in one of the most thorough accounts of The Ring to date, Paul Heise has defended a comparable allegorical interpretation, aligning the characters and actions of the drama with the forces at work in forging civilization from the raw material of nature. Heise derives his allegory from a close reading of the philosophy of Wagner’s early mentor Ludwig Feuerbach, as well as from the text and music of The Ring and Wagner’s own voluminous writings. The allegory is spelled out carefully, with the leitmotifs identified at every occurrence, so that the reader can click on to the score and hear the music. This invaluable aid to understanding the tetralogy has made it far easier for me to embark on my own account, by providing a step-by-step guide to the leitmotifs as they appear.

Heise’s allegory does, I believe, contain a core of truth: but it is a truth about The Ring as Wagner originally conceived it. The Ring as it finally emerged tells a rather different story, and tells it not through allegory but through a kind of concentrated symbolism that admits of no simple stepwise decipherment. Several recent commentators have explored the deeper meaning of this symbolism. Light has been cast by the Jungian account offered by Robert Donington, by the patient but incomplete work of Deryck Cooke, by the listener’s companion and concordance of J. K. Holman, by the engaging radio talks of Father Owen Lee and by the fascinating study of Wotan’s search for an ending by Philip Kitcher and Richard Schacht.

 

In terms of a step-by-step guide of The Ring, though, I don't think there's anything better than Paul Heise's work.

[publicist 4,643]

21 hours ago, Tom Guernsey said:

Fair. I might check it out but there’s lots of pretty decent film music-esque modern classical to enjoy so guess there’s not much point wasting time on the less good stuff. 

 

Just in time for Halloween, i'd recommend wasting time on the *really* good stuff.

 

 

[Tom Guernsey 2,280]

49 minutes ago, publicist said:

 

Just in time for Halloween, i'd recommend wasting time on the *really* good stuff.

 

 

Excellent choice! I have probably related this anecdote before, but I have a friend from school who used to joke about me liking Bartok when we at school… At the time I wasn’t into his music at all, but ironically, now he no longer makes a joke, I’m a huge Bartok fan! These are my two favourite works of his. Then again, I don’t have this recording… Perhaps I need to add them!? 

[Loert 2,510]

If we're talking Bartok and Halloween, his opera is also really good:

 

 

This version has more striking visual imagery, but the quality is poorer: