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The Classical Music Recommendation Thread


Muad'Dib

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The Bartok adagio used in The Shining seems very obvious (and pub linked it on the previous page).

 

I'd love to know more about what people said about that movement before The Shining.  Even divorced from that context, it's such a deliciously creepy piece of music.

 

EDIT:

TBC, I know about Bartok's "night music" conception and have listened to all the pieces that are grouped under it.

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Yes, I should really pay more attention to Bartok. And also check out the various Pendereckis and Ligeties that are frequently used in films (I just re-watched Shutter Island the other day). Though I'm not sure if in those cases the spookiness (vs just dramatic intensity) is always intentional?

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2 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

Yes, I should really pay more attention to Bartok. And also check out the various Pendereckis and Ligeties that are frequently used in films (I just re-watched Shutter Island the other day). Though I'm not sure if in those cases the spookiness (vs just dramatic intensity) is always intentional?

 

Oh and in the same vein as Danse Macabre, there's the scherzo from Mahler's 4th:

 

 

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Hmm, hard to find pieces that are not programme music but sound spooky (by present-day standards), but some suggestions are:

 

Liszt, Fantasy and Fugue on B-A-C-H

Bax, Symphony No.1, II: Adagio

  • This does sound like programme music, and Bax was probably trying to express something specific...

Walton, Symphony No.2, I

Also, the ending of Berg's Round Dance from his 3 Orchestral Pieces always creeped me out.

 

Of course, a lot of modern classical music sounds "scary" although it's more the fact that we associate such music with horror films.

 

Anyway, the music that I'll be playing on speaker outside my house tonight on loop is the graveyard music from Stravinsky's The Rake's Progress:

 

 

To me it sounds like a ghost playing the cello...it even starts with an owl(?) call at the beginning. What more do you need?

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I didn't necessarily mean to exclude officially programmatic works. It's just that non-programmatic music that's intentionally scary seems to be particularly rare. But I'm interested in anything besides the usual suspects, especially if it's a long-form work that focuses on being scary, rather than just having a scary section somewhere in the middle.

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Yes... I said it was thought-provoking and those were my initial thoughts that it provoked!  I am at once repelled by and drawn to music criticism, like a lot of listeners I imagine.

 

The whole essay (actually written as a speech) is very much worth reading as Forster wrestles with the value of criticism

 

It's the opening essay of this book, a compendium of speeches given at the 1947 Harvard Symposium on Music and Criticism

https://archive.org/details/musiccriticismsy0000symp

 

That symposium also saw premieres of new works by Martinu, Piston, Copland, Schoenberg, and Hindemith!  A very interesting event.

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I really only look for pieces (criticism nowadays seems almost too stodgy a term in the Age of Twitter) that somehow evokes my interest, either by POV or deep-dive background knowledge - though rarely technical or formal aspects as such. That's stuff i pick up, but to have it front and center often seems to dilute the sensual qualities. What was going on in i. e. Bartok's life when he wrote a piece like the Music for Strings, Percussion and Celeste evokes my interest, or why it influenced many people at a moment in time.

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I've been trying to figure out some history of the "wordless chorus" with orchestra in classical music.  Orchestral music where a choir is present just for the color they add, with no text.  It's so common in film music because a chorus easily heightens the emotions being conveyed, whether it's meant to be magical or sorrowful or mysterious, etc, but I can't find any specific article outlining the history of its use in classical music pre-dating film music.

 

I keep finding references to Debussy's Sirènes nocturne being somehow groundbreaking for using a wordless female chorus, but the piece was in fact composed a few years after Tchaikovsky used a wordless female chorus to add magic and beauty to his "Waltz of the Snowflakes" in The Nutcracker. 

 

Does anyone have any examples of orchestral music written before the 1890s that uses choir purely for color?

 

the Tchaikovsky:

 

 

the Debussy:

 

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23 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

I've been trying to figure out some history of the "wordless chorus" with orchestra in classical music.  Orchestral music where a choir is present just for the color they add, with no text.  It's so common in film music because a chorus easily heightens the emotions being conveyed, whether it's meant to be magical or sorrowful or mysterious, etc, but I can't find any specific article outlining the history of its use in classical music pre-dating film music.

 

I keep finding references to Debussy's Sirènes nocturne being somehow groundbreaking for using a wordless female chorus, but the piece was in fact composed a few years after Tchaikovsky used a wordless female chorus to add magic and beauty to his "Waltz of the Snowflakes" in The Nutcracker. 

 

Does anyone have any examples of orchestral music written before the 1890s that uses choir purely for color?

 

the Tchaikovsky:

 

 

the Debussy:

 

 

Yes, lots but the origins are probably theatrical and reptation of non-words.  Wagner's Valkyrie's cry for example.  Others...

Berlioz's "Chasse royale et orage" from Les Troyens (1863)

 

and before...Weber's "Wolf's Glen" scene from Der Freischütz (1821)

and I would argue the finale to Handel's Messiah (1741) too...it's almost entirely "ahhhhhh" from Amen.  

You might call me out on a technicality on the last one, but I'll counter back that's how this stuff originates.  It's a syllable from another word extracted.  In 1741, this was freaking avant-garde!  A choral oratorio finale extravaganza based on two syllables!!!

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I am very much interested in those kinds of origins, and yeah I’d imagine there are lots of examples of wordless chorus being used within operas, but I am specifically interested in when the wordless chorus began being used in otherwise purely symphonic works (as in the wordless chorus is the only human voice in the whole thing).  I’d love to know the actual earliest one!

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14 hours ago, karelm said:

Yes, lots but the origins are probably theatrical and reptation of non-words.  Wagner's Valkyrie's cry for example.  Others...

Berlioz's "Chasse royale et orage" from Les Troyens (1863)

 

and before...Weber's "Wolf's Glen" scene from Der Freischütz (1821)

and I would argue the finale to Handel's Messiah (1741) too...it's almost entirely "ahhhhhh" from Amen.  

 

You might call me out on a technicality on the last one, but I'll counter back that's how this stuff originates.  It's a syllable from another word extracted.  In 1741, this was freaking avant-garde!  A choral oratorio finale extravaganza based on two syllables!!!

 

I'm not going to contest that stuff like the Händel is the likely origin of the modern wordless chorus, but I would argue that they're very distinct things today. And also different from e.g. Wagner's valkyries (or his Holländer sailors, for that matter), because he gave them distinct lyrics - even if they're made up words just meant to sound good when sung, they still have a lot more articulation than pure vowels, and (also importantly) they're sung by actual characters as part of a story. In Holländer, they're actually singing a sailor's song, so even if they were just vowels, they'd still be more than just an instrument with a specific colour. In Walküre, even if they're nonsense words, they're sort of the valkyries' call to arms, so they still have a semantic function.

 

Prolonged words, like in Händel's case (and many after him) are still composers setting a specific text to lyrics, only taking their freedom to set a short word (and in this case, a particularly important one) to more music than you'd expect.

 

The "wordless choir as just another instrument" thing is different, I think - and to my taste shamefully overused in film music (it's one facette of a cheap "let's make it epic" shortcut). But its main feature is that there is no character and there are no lyrics - it's just another instrument, without a deeper subtext.

 

The earliest super famous example of a wordless chorus I can think of again comes from an opera, Puccini's Madame Butterfly:

I've seen it live once, but too long ago to remember much, and I'm otherwise not very familiar with it aside from this piece. It's hard to judge from the Met staging in this video whether the choir has a diegetic function here or not.


There's another intermediate step: A choir purely used as an instrument, but singing made up syllables, like in Koyaanisqatsi:

 

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7 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

The earliest super famous example of a wordless chorus I can think of again comes from an opera, Puccini's Madame Butterfly:

 

Still 12 years after Waltz of the Snowflakes....

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2 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

Still 12 years after Waltz of the Snowflakes....

 

But more famous for having a wordless choir, I'd argue. Depending on what (or if) it signifies in Puccini's opera, Tchaikovsky's is closer to what you're asking about though.

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Maybe in addition to being the first composer to write for orchestra and artillery, Tchaikovsky was also the first to write for orchestra and wordless choir! :lol:

 

There must be earlier examples.

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4 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

Maybe in addition to being the first composer to write for orchestra and artillery, Tchaikovsky was also the first to write for orchestra and wordless choir! :lol:

 

There must be earlier examples.

 

Bizet's incidental music to L'Arlesienne (1872) contains a couple of short pieces with wordless choir, e.g.:

 

 

 

But the orchestra is far less prominent than in Waltz of the Snowflakes.

 

Anyway, we know Tchaikovsky was a big fan of Bizet's Carmen, so perhaps he was familiar with this work too.

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14 minutes ago, Loert said:

 

Bizet's incidental music to L'Arlesienne (1872) contains a couple of short pieces with wordless choir, e.g.:

 

 

 

But the orchestra is far less prominent than in Waltz of the Snowflakes.

 

Anyway, we know Tchaikovsky was a big fan of Bizet's Carmen, so perhaps he was familiar with this work too.

 

Very cool and very beautiful, striking music!

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7 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

Maybe in addition to being the first composer to write for orchestra and artillery, Tchaikovsky was also the first to write for orchestra and wordless choir! :lol:

 

There must be earlier examples.

Ugh!  The 1812 cannons are an American fourth of July invention!  I believe they were introduced by Arthur Fielder and the Boston Pops in 1974 during a televised July 4 concert and have become tradition from that.

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I don’t much care for Donnington’s book. I still need to check Holman’s.
 

Ultimately, the Ring is a more vague work than other works that use the leitmotif technique and since Wagner himself gave little indication as to what HE considered constituted a leitmotif, catalogues of leitmotives for The Ring range wildly from some 70 motives to 260 motives.

 

Derryck Cook got pretty close to the sort of thing Doug did, but died and left his great work unfinished.

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11 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

What?  Cannons have been part of the 1812 Overture since it was composed.  There’s a whole story about how they couldn’t get the cannons to work correctly for the premiere in Moscow.

The Nutcracker has a cannon shot in it as well.

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2 hours ago, Tom Guernsey said:

Holiday update! I’m still on holiday… However, at a Oxfam bookshop yesterday, I saw two different books about the Ring and took a couple of pictures. I can’t vouch for how good they are, but on a brief look through, they appear to be very detailed with lots of musical excerpts of the various themes and motifs with detailed descriptions. I don’t actually think either of these books is the book my friend has! The one with the rainbow cover was longer and more detailed from what I could tell and seemed more what you’re after but hopefully a useful starting point.

 

55 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

I don’t much care for Donnington’s book. I still need to check Holman’s.
 

Ultimately, the Ring is a more vague work than other works that use the leitmotif technique and since Wagner himself gave little indication as to what HE considered constituted a leitmotif, catalogues of leitmotives for The Ring range wildly from some 70 motives to 260 motives.

 

Derryck Cook got pretty close to the sort of thing Doug did, but died and left his great work unfinished.

 

Both the Holman and the Donington are on the Internet Archive thankfully

 

https://archive.org/details/wagnersringliste0000holm

 

https://archive.org/details/DoningtonWagnersRingAndItsSymbols1969311p

 

It doesn't really matter to me how definitive the text is, but how useful of a listening companion/guide it is.

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On 09/08/2019 at 10:10 AM, Disco Stu said:

Amazing Ned Rorem settings of two of my favorite poems.

 

Gerard Manley Hopkins' "Spring and Fall," my favorite poem about death

 

Robert Frost's "Stopping by Woods on a Snowy Evening"

 

There are many composers who've taken on the Frost poem, but Rorem's is the best to my ear.  I think it's better suited to a soprano than a tenor, but this tenor performance is the only one I found that takes the song as slowly as I think it should be.

 

 

I really do love these two poems/songs :wub2:

 

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4 hours ago, Ludwig said:

And actually, if you're looking for something to learn from while listening, I highly recommend The Ring Disc. Yes, it's old now, but so good! It gives you the vocal score and running analytical commentary while playing the Solti recordings of all four operas. Great for learning the leitmotifs in an in-time way.

 

Been looking for that one for a looong time!

 

Personally, my position is that music-drama is to be viewed rather than strictly listened to, though. I love to see great stagings.

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3 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Personally, my position is that music-drama is to be viewed rather than strictly listened to, though. I love to see great stagings.

 

When it specifically comes to The Ring though, just listening you can imagine the greatest most expensive and expansive movie version that could never be made, with a budget of $5 billion or whatever :lol:

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18 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

just listening you can imagine the greatest most expensive and expansive movie version that could never be made, with a budget of $5 billion or whatever 

 

It is true that, in The Ring (except, maybe, Walkure) Wagner wrote the stage directions with complete abandom when it comes to what could be accomplished on the stage. So even in a big-budgeted, naturalistically-designed production, there are certain aspects - the Rhinedaughters and Valkyries, the wraith-like Alberich of Gotterdamerung, Valhalla and its ultimate destruction, the dragon, the transitions in Rheingold - that can only ever be disappointing. And the realities of opera, too, are such that very often the cast don't embody their roles well in terms of their physicality, etc...

 

At the same time, a well-cast Ring can be an exceptional theatrical experience. The terror in Dame Gwyneth Jones eyes when Siegfried moves to embrace her, the jitteriness of Siegfried Jerusalem before the forest bird spills the beans, Waltraud Meier's anguish at her nightmare about the Neiding raid, the way Hildegard Behrens looks at Wotan during his farewell, traces of regret in Hermann Becht's Alberich when he bids farewell to Hagen...

 

At its best, one feels one has watched a Shakespeare play AND went to a Beethoven symphony all at once! And its not something that listening (even to superb recordings like Solti's) can replicate.

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I do appreciate that when it comes to performance.... but for setting I like imagining a real luminous rainbow bridge breaking through a real storm cloud across a real chasm with a real Rhine snaking through real green forests far, far below.  No staging that I've seen videos of comes close to me listening with my eyes closed!

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Right.

 

Walkure - my favourite of the Ring - can concievably be done fairly well: First Act takes place in Huding's home, second and third act take place mostly in mountain passes that are cast into deep shadows anyway, the magic fire isn't hard to do on the stage, etc...

 

Its also one of the least demanding parts of the Ring vocally: whereas in Siegfried, the aponymous character almost always disapppoints vocally. Siegmund is probably the easiest of the Heldentenor roles (and possibly the most sympathetic of all of Wagner’s heroes but I digress).

 

The only challenge is to get Brunnhildes, Sieglindes and Siegmunds that look compelling on the stage: Chereau managed that very well, I always thought.

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I haven't been able to listen yet, but this BBC Phil album of Stravinsky works is out today on all streaming platforms.  The Symphony in C is actually my single favorite Stravinsky work, I simply adore it.  The MTT-LSO recording is my go-to usually.

 

Image

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36 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

I haven't been able to listen yet, but this BBC Phil album of Stravinsky works is out today on all streaming platforms.  The Symphony in C is actually my single favorite Stravinsky work, I simply adore it.  The MTT-LSO recording is my go-to usually.

 

Image

Having seen the Rite of Spring live under Edward Gardner in London this week, I can see myself having a Stravinsky kick (I have at least 15 recordings of the rite of spring!) but wanted to add my appreciation for Symphony in C, as well as the Symphony in Three Movements. I think I discovered them on a BBC Music Magazine cover disc and was thrilled to discover some new and super enjoyable Stravinsky outside the well known ballets. I don’t have the MTT album but might have to pick it up. 

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4 minutes ago, Tom Guernsey said:

Having seen the Rite of Spring live under Edward Gardner in London this week, I can see myself having a Stravinsky kick (I have at least 15 recordings of the rite of spring!) but wanted to add my appreciation for Symphony in C, as well as the Symphony in Three Movements. I think I discovered them on a BBC Music Magazine cover disc and was thrilled to discover some new and super enjoyable Stravinsky outside the well known ballets. I don’t have the MTT album but might have to pick it up. 

 

Something both Stravinsky and Copland have in common is that they are most popularly associated with dance music.  And for both even their "absolute" music feels like it was meant for dance somehow.  That's certainly how I feel about the Symphony in C, and indeed many years later Martha Graham did in fact create a choreography for it.

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On 09/11/2022 at 10:10 PM, Loert said:

Bizet's incidental music to L'Arlesienne (1872) contains a couple of short pieces with wordless choir, e.g.:

 

I just remembered Mozart's Zauberflöte, specifically the famous aria of the Queen of the Night.:

 

It's not choir, and it's more than just another instrument - it's clearly sung by the character, as part of her aria, but for the famous coloratura part, Mozart just skip the lyrics and has her sing long lines on the vowel "A". Musically, it's more or less the same as Händel et al. extending one single word "Amen" to long lines of music, but it's still different in that Mozart just went beyond Schikaneder's lyrics and added music without bothering to justify it with lyrics. In that regard at least I think it shares a relevant characteristic with the vocalise and the modern wordless choir. Even the term coloratura hints (indirectly, as this aspect is not actually what it describes) at the modern use of wordless singing as another orchestral colour.

 

Who came up with writing coloratura parts without setting them to lyrics? Who did it before this?

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Oh no....

 

Ned Rorem | The NYPR Archive Collections | WNYC

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/18/arts/music/ned-rorem-dead.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/obituaries/2022/11/18/ned-rorem-dead-composer-diarist/

 

Ned Rorem, a composer whose music is very close to my heart, has died at the age of 99.  I was hoping he'd make it to 100.  I'd actually been returning to his music just the past couple of weeks, coincidentally.

 

I've read all of his diaries and books, listened to as many interviews as I could find, and while he is famous for his sardonicism and wit, I was always amazed at how willing he was to be vulnerable and human.  His writing about caring for his life partner, Jim, as he slowly died of AIDS in the 90s will stay with me for the rest of my life.

 

That sense of humanity and vulnerability carries through to his wonderful music.  He was incredibly prolific and his talent was deep.  He wrote songs, symphonies, sonatas, suites, operas, motets, and anything else you can think of.  He wrote music that was expressive and emotional, but with great restraint, economy, and taste.  The songs will probably be his greatest legacy, they are staples of voice student recitals to this day.

 

Here's just a few of my favorites that came to mind.  They don't even begin to show the breadth of his music.

 

The aching Andante from his 3rd symphony, written in the 1950s

 

His music for various chamber groups is probably the corner of his oeuvre that I love best

 

 

This setting of Robert Frost's great poem about death "Come In," that Rorem wrote for his epic song cycle The Evidence of Things Not Seen, probably what I'd consider his magnum opus

 

And here's a lovely light waltz written for his beloved Paris

 

 

On 13/09/2019 at 10:59 AM, Disco Stu said:

Ned Rorem - The End of Summer for Violin, Clarinet, and Piano

 

Carry me off on waves of dissonance.  I especially love the piano here.

 

(2:06 - 2:33)

 

It contrasts well with the lovely lyrical section that follows.

 

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5 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

Oh no....

 

Ned Rorem | The NYPR Archive Collections | WNYC

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/18/arts/music/ned-rorem-dead.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/obituaries/2022/11/18/ned-rorem-dead-composer-diarist/

 

Ned Rorem, a composer whose music is very close to my heart, has died at the age of 99.  I was hoping he'd make it to 100.  I'd actually been returning to his music just the past couple of weeks, coincidentally.

 

I've read all of his diaries and books, listened to as many interviews as I could find, and while he is famous for his sardonicism and wit, I was always amazed at how willing he was to be vulnerable and human.  His writing about caring for his life partner, Jim, as he slowly died of AIDS in the 90s will stay with me for the rest of my life.

 

That sense of humanity and vulnerability carries through to his wonderful music.  He was incredibly prolific and his talent was deep.  He wrote songs, symphonies, sonatas, suites, operas, motets, and anything else you can think of.  He wrote music that was expressive and emotional, but with great restraint, economy, and taste.  The songs will probably be his greatest legacy, they are staples of voice student recitals to this day.

 

Here's just a few of my favorites that came to mind.  They don't even begin to show the breadth of his music.

 

The aching Andante from his 3rd symphony, written in the 1950s

 

His music for various chamber groups is probably the corner of his oeuvre that I love best

 

 

This setting of Robert Frost's great poem about death "Come In," that Rorem wrote for his epic song cycle The Evidence of Things Not Seen, probably what I'd consider his magnum opus

 

And here's a lovely light waltz written for his beloved Paris

 

 

 

Such an incredible legacy.  Also, a great teacher to generations.  I attended a masterclass of his during pandemic lockdown not long ago and he was so youthful and full of vigor.  He was also so supportive of one of his students and took so much joy in her music.  RIP.

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4 minutes ago, karelm said:

Such an incredible legacy.  Also, a great teacher to generations.  I attended a masterclass of his during pandemic lockdown not long ago and he was so youthful and full of vigor.  He was also so supportive of one of his students and took so much joy in her music.  RIP.

 

That’s amazing, I didn’t even realize he was still doing things like that into his late 90s.  I thought he was just puttering around Nantucket most of the time :lol:

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Irving Fine's Music for Piano is for me the absolutely perfect execution of what mid-century neoclassicism can be.

 

The "grammar" is that cold, graceful Stravinskian neo-classicism, but the themes are so warm and inviting (aka not Stravinskian at all lol).  It's an intoxicating combination.

 

I discovered this piece back in 2019 and it's become part of my core canon of favorite pieces.  The Variations movement theme (found at 3:54 below) touches me deeply.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Disco Stu said:

Irving Fine's Music for Piano is for me the absolutely perfect execution of what mid-century neoclassicism can be.

 

The "grammar" is that cold, graceful Stravinskian neo-classicism, but the themes are so warm and inviting (aka not Stravinskian at all lol).  It's an intoxicating combination.

 

I discovered this piece back in 2019 and it's become part of my core canon of favorite pieces.  The Variations movement theme (found at 3:54 below) touches me deeply.

 

 

First that I have heard of Irving Fine and I really love this!

 

You describe it so well. I love the warmth it has! I'm going to look for more of his works. 

 

 

 

 

 

-------------

 

 

If anyone wants to have some nice Renaissance music this holiday season, I've been loving the release by New London Consort of Tielman Susato's Danseyres. 

 

I've enjoyed every iteration of these dances that I can find, including a number of wind ensemble/ band arrangements. 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, MrJosh said:

You describe it so well. I love the warmth it has! I'm going to look for more of his works. 

 

A tragically short career, dying at 47 from a heart attack, and unfortunately like so many of his generation in his final decade he was following the Pied Piper of Serialism.  I discovered him because he was one of Copland's closest friends.

 

If you enjoy Music for Piano, the other instrumental work of his that is closest in character is the Partita for wind quintet, which I highly recommend.

 

 

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