Hans Zimmer - The Dark Knight Rises

[Quintus 5,399]

Conjecture, Blum. It's safe to wager that Zimmer was mucking about with crude synth tech for a considerable time before Gia even left school, let alone came on the scene.

[Wojo 2,453]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yet he is doing mostly big orchestral stuff nowadays, Nolan and Snyder would never hire him.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Nolan should focus on learning how to direct action sequences and leave music decisions to someone else.

[Jay 37,343]

What do you not like about Nolan's action sequences?

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

I say this as someone who's worked on his fair share of visual effects/animating...commercials, film, and now a days video games

His action work (from production to editing) lacks rhythm, choreography, and most of all spatial story telling. To quote Spock, his pattern indicates two-dimensional thinking. So when he is faced with delivering a frenzied scene he falls back on very flat and linear thinking, which leads to a big pile of mess. And that doesn't work.

[Quintus 5,399]

Sounds like the plot to Inception.

[Jay 37,343]

I will say all 4 spiderman films have better action scenes than either Nolan Bat film

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

There could be two reasons for why Nolan's action set pieces are so poor. One, he doesn't know what he's doing, so he gets overwhelmed by all the different variables he has to control and choreograph and sync up. Or he over stretches himself, with directing, producing, and writing, to the point where a big involved action sequence gets short changed.

This is why I am so looking forward to Skyfall. Now there's a director who has an incredible rhythmic, choreographic, and spatial sense. So it will be spine-tinglingly exciting to see how he handles big action set pieces.

I will say all 4 spiderman films have better action scenes than either Nolan Bat film

I agree.

[Jay 37,343]

Or, he could think the way they turn out is perfect and exactly what he was going for. Who knows.

I definitely expect the next film-maker to take over the franchise will have vastly different action sequences. I hope the next Batman is more of a detective too

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Or, he could think the way they turn out is perfect and exactly what he was going for. Who knows.

Oh, I wouldn't doubt it. My crappiest work and the crappiest work of other people I've seen is when we're 100% sure of ourselves. Because when you know exactly what you want, and at the end of your effort your work is exactly as you wanted, it probably means you were focusing on a few small things you wanted and missed out on huge details.

Really though, how often do you hear John Williams or Jerry Goldsmith or Alfred Hitchcock saying "Everything worked out like I wanted it?" It's usually "I sit down at the piano and crap myself." and "I wish I could have done this here and there. And this wasn't how I wanted it to be."

[Admiral Holdo 16]

I will say all 4 spiderman films have better action scenes than either Nolan Bat film

Just when I was starting to dislike you! I like Raimi's action scenes more; the Evil Dead/Darkman craziness was a great fit for Spidey.

I definitely expect the next film-maker to take over the franchise will have vastly different action sequences. I hope the next Batman is more of a detective too

I'd like something a little less bleak, personally. Batman has the range to be both serious and light-hearted, and we've certainly had a lot of the former.

[Jay 37,343]

I will say all 4 spiderman films have better action scenes than either Nolan Bat film

Just when I was starting to dislike you! I like Raimi's action scenes more; the Evil Dead/Darkman craziness was a great fit for Spidey.

The Spiderman/Doc Ock fights were the best. Especially the bank one! The Spider-man/Lizard fights weren't bad, but not very memorable.

I definitely expect the next film-maker to take over the franchise will have vastly different action sequences. I hope the next Batman is more of a detective too

I'd like something a little less bleak, personally. Batman has the range to be both serious and light-hearted, and we've certainly had a lot of the former.

Yep

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Batman & Robin gave us all the light heartedness we ever need.

[Admiral Holdo 16]

And the Nolan trilogy will give us all the brooding bleakness we'll ever need.

Guess that balances out. Maybe we should get a middle-ground tone then?

[Jay 37,343]

Yep

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

I would prefer Batman be given a rest for a decade or so. It's feeling raw and sore from all the use.

[Jay 37,343]

No way that's happening. WB will get reboot out as soon as they can to work towards getting a Justice League movie out.

[Admiral Holdo 16]

I would prefer Batman be given a rest for a decade or so. It's feeling raw and sore from all the use.

Ideally, that's what they'd do. I hope people are noticing The Amazing Spider-Man's diminishing returns (not that it's a BOMB or anything). Same with X-Men First Class; the balance between supply and demand is a little out of whack.

[Wojo 2,453]

The problem with a Justice League movie is that if Thor and Iron Man felt forced in the same universe, just imagine Batman and Superman in the same universe. With each other. Now introduce Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Flash, Aquaman, and Martian Manhunter. As good as the recent Batman movies have been, the failure of the Green Lantern movie and relative disinterest for the other DC heroes (notwithstanding the Superman reboot) would, you'd think, suppress interest in funding a JLA movie.

At least with the rights to Marvel Comics' Avengers and X-Men characters belonging to different studios for the forseeable future, we won't have to worry about a Civil War plotline basically dumping all Marvel characters into one giant playset and REALLY confusing things.

I see you all have special powers, are you all mutants? Oh, I see, you have a special suit, you suffered a gamma ray accident, you're a superman, you're a god, and you there are just a really good shot. Oh, and this man claims to have been bitten by a spider. My bad. You're sure you're not mutants?

[Delorean90 42]

Get Paul Dini to write a live-action Batman film, for starters.

[gkgyver 1,645]

And the Nolan trilogy will give us all the brooding bleakness we'll ever need.

Guess that balances out. Maybe we should get a middle-ground tone then?

And that would lead us right back to the Burton films.Now that's funny!

[Admiral Holdo 16]

And the Nolan trilogy will give us all the brooding bleakness we'll ever need.

Guess that balances out. Maybe we should get a middle-ground tone then?

And that would lead us right back to the Burton films.Now that's funny!

BINGO. Sign me up for more of those!

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Tim Burton made two good movies. Batman and Ed Wood. Everything else, especially in the last decade and half is him circle jerking with his weirdo buddies making the same movie in the most boring way imaginable.

I would like him to stay away from Batman films if more are to be made.

[Admiral Holdo 16]

Tim Burton made two good movies. Batman and Ed Wood. Everything else, especially in the last decade and half is him circle jerking with his weirdo buddies making the same movie in the most boring way imaginable.

I would like him to stay away from Batman films if more are to be made.

Kudos on Ed Wood. Ladyfriend and I were supposed to see a print in Berkeley, and then she got strep... ah well. Though I'd add Beetlejuice, Edward Scissorhands, Batman Returns... I'm pretty much a fan of his up to Mars Attacks.

[crocodile 8,000]

The two Burton films I like is indeed Ed Wood and Batman Returns. But me liking that second one has nothing to do with Batman character as known from comics. I just enjoy this naughty atypical blockbuster. What a weird film that was.

Karol

[indy4 155]

Sweeney Todd, Big Fish, Nightmare Before Christmas, and Edward Scissorhands are all great (and very different). And they're waaaay better than Batman.

Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, Corpse Bride, and Sleepy Hollow are good too.

[Wojo 2,453]

My favorite Burton is, always has been, and always shall be Pee-Wee's Big Adventure. Don't ask me to explain it.

[Delorean90 42]

Don't try. There are some things that they wouldn't understand, couldn't understand...shouldn't understand.

[Wojo 2,453]

Ha ha!

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Actually it sounds like a big JWFan prank. I wouldn't have been surprised if that was this years April Fools joke. It would have been a lot funnier than the time you guys tried to trick everyone that Zimmer was helping out with Tintin.

But alas, its all true.

Zimmer could work his entire life and still not write a score close in quality and complexity to Tintin. Williams casually knocks out more memorable themes in a single movie than Zimmer does in a dozen. As the Filmtracks review says, Zimmer has absolutely whored himself out and writes trash these days. To call what he writes "music" is to devalue that term.

The man has written better MUSIC than Williams on multiple occasions, actually. Plus how is he whoring himself out if all his movies from the past 2 years have essentially been sequels to films he's scored? You want to him to ditch those and do something else or warm the bench?

[publicist 4,643]

The man has written better MUSIC than Williams on multiple occasions, actually.

By whose standards?

[Brónach 1,302]

The problem with a Justice League movie is that if Thor and Iron Man felt forced in the same universe, just imagine Batman and Superman in the same universe. With each other. Now introduce Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Flash, Aquaman, and Martian Manhunter. As good as the recent Batman movies have been, the failure of the Green Lantern movie and relative disinterest for the other DC heroes (notwithstanding the Superman reboot) would, you'd think, suppress interest in funding a JLA movie.

At least with the rights to Marvel Comics' Avengers and X-Men characters belonging to different studios for the forseeable future, we won't have to worry about a Civil War plotline basically dumping all Marvel characters into one giant playset and REALLY confusing things.

I see you all have special powers, are you all mutants? Oh, I see, you have a special suit, you suffered a gamma ray accident, you're a superman, you're a god, and you there are just a really good shot. Oh, and this man claims to have been bitten by a spider. My bad. You're sure you're not mutants?

There's no point in competing with Marvel with a Justice League film.

If it was up to me to do such a thing, I wouldn't do that. I would adapt Crisis on Infinite Earths straight instead of a synthesis of details of several comic books. Screw the Justice League.

[gkgyver 1,645]

When has he done that?

Well, if you take Zimmer's best, and go back to Williams' early days in the 70s, and compare the two, I am sure you will find a few spots where the two are equal.

But that is as far as anyone should go.

I can't imagine anyone with a serious interest in film music saying Zimmer did better at any point than the Williams of the 90s and 2000.

[Brónach 1,302]

I would love to hear that better music Koray is talking about. Of course, is someone happens to have written enjoyable music, I'm not going to complain.

[tannhauser 101]

Back on topic - according to hans-zimmer.com 4 suites will be released as a download totalling 55 minutes of score. "Wayne Manor", "Selina Kyle", "Bane", and "Orphan". These were demos that Zimmer created during the early stages of the film's production and were used as a blueprint for the entire score.

[Quintus 5,399]

The man has written better MUSIC than Williams on multiple occasions, actually.

By whose standards?

Koray's.

[Ren 75]

Actually it sounds like a big JWFan prank. I wouldn't have been surprised if that was this years April Fools joke. It would have been a lot funnier than the time you guys tried to trick everyone that Zimmer was helping out with Tintin.

But alas, its all true.

Zimmer could work his entire life and still not write a score close in quality and complexity to Tintin. Williams casually knocks out more memorable themes in a single movie than Zimmer does in a dozen. As the Filmtracks review says, Zimmer has absolutely whored himself out and writes trash these days. To call what he writes "music" is to devalue that term.

The man has written better MUSIC than Williams on multiple occasions, actually. Plus how is he whoring himself out if all his movies from the past 2 years have essentially been sequels to films he's scored? You want to him to ditch those and do something else or warm the bench?

I think we are differing on the definition of music here

[gkgyver 1,645]

Koray thinks of music as notes that make some form of sense.

I'd like to think of music as more than that; a living, breathing organic creation that transcends the notes written on paper.

There are plenty of composers who do that better, and don't have their head so far up their bums.

[TheUlyssesian 2,477]

The man has written better MUSIC than Williams on multiple occasions, actually. Plus how is he whoring himself out if all his movies from the past 2 years have essentially been sequels to films he's scored? You want to him to ditch those and do something else or warm the bench?

Um.. if lets say Williams dropped grains randomly on a piano, THAT itself would create better music than Zimmer could compose at the height of his faculties after devoting years of thought to his composition.

[tannhauser 101]

I don't see the point of comparing Williams with Zimmer, they're so completely different in their approach to writing music. It's like comparing Beethoven and the Beatles - they're both good in different ways. I don't complain because Zimmer isn't as good an orchestrator as Williams, and I don't complain because Williams isn't as adept with electronics as Zimmer. I just enjoy their contrasting styles and musical voices for what they are.

[Brónach 1,302]

The man has written better MUSIC than Williams on multiple occasions, actually. Plus how is he whoring himself out if all his movies from the past 2 years have essentially been sequels to films he's scored? You want to him to ditch those and do something else or warm the bench?

Um.. if lets say Williams dropped grains randomly on a piano, THAT itself would create better music than Zimmer could compose at the height of his faculties after devoting years of thought to his composition.

You're kidding right?

[TheUlyssesian 2,477]

What do you think?

[gkgyver 1,645]

I don't see the point of comparing Williams with Zimmer, they're so completely different in their approach to writing music. It's like comparing Beethoven and the Beatles - they're both good in different ways. I don't complain because Zimmer isn't as good an orchestrator as Williams, and I don't complain because Williams isn't as adept with electronics as Zimmer. I just enjoy their contrasting styles and musical voices for what they are.

And yet, Williams is better at electronics than Zimmer is at orchestrating.Williams weakness in electronics doesn't hurt his music too much, while Zimmer's severe lack of orchestration skills robs his music of any range and flexibility.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Newman is right. Electronics have never been a strong point for JW, and probably that's why he doesn't employ them much in obvious ways. Zimmers music seems reliant on the very limited bag of tricks though.

[tannhauser 101]

I don't see the point of comparing Williams with Zimmer, they're so completely different in their approach to writing music. It's like comparing Beethoven and the Beatles - they're both good in different ways. I don't complain because Zimmer isn't as good an orchestrator as Williams, and I don't complain because Williams isn't as adept with electronics as Zimmer. I just enjoy their contrasting styles and musical voices for what they are.

And yet, Williams is better at electronics than Zimmer is at orchestrating.Williams weakness in electronics doesn't hurt his music too much, while Zimmer's severe lack of orchestration skills robs his music of any range and flexibility.

Your first statement is impossible to quantify. Your second is a matter of personal taste. I feel there is plenty of range and flexibility in Zimmer's electronic approach, and he doesn't rely on the orchestra enough for his "severe lack of orchestration skill" to damage his music. The orchestra is only a part of Zimmer's palette, he records elements with them to get the sound he wants, maybe only a string section, or a brass section, then brings that back to the studio and integrates it with all the other elements. That's how he creates his sound. Which is why when an orchestra re-records his music, or plays it live, it lacks so much - it's only the orchestral part.

Williams mastery lies in traditional orchestration and conducting skill, Zimmers lies in the use of modern technology, electronics, production and mixing. They use different tools and write different kinds of music.

[Wojo 2,453]

Oh for the love of everything that's holy, make it stop... Zimmer does what he does, Williams does what he does, and never between the two shall meet.

[KK 3,307]

Why are we comparing Williams and Zimmer all of a sudden? Both of them have different musical voices with their individual strengths. There is no need to compare them.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Moving away from the typical, dull, boring garbage the usual suspects engage in. Jim Emerson has done a really neat analysis of The Dark Knight's action set piece.

You can watch it here, it touches on some of what I talked about, and misses out on plenty more errors and opportunities to criticize but for those who don't generally go into movies thinking about scenes like this it might really get you into that mindset.

http://vimeo.com/28792404

After you watch that, be sure to watch his analysis of Salt's set piece, so you can see how an at least functionally well done action sequence compares. I think it's really important that you see the comparison to really appreciate the difference.

http://vimeo.com/28957441

In the Salt one he briefly touches on one of my biggest complaints with Nolan, which is logically *layering* and composing shots to help convey meaning and location. This is why I say Nolan is a 2D linear thinker.

Finally, if you're still interested and want to continue learning how to look at the scenes analytically here's another one, again use it to compare with Nolan's truck chase.

http://vimeo.com/29129274

And if at the end of all that you're still interested check out Emerson's companion writing for the videos, which provide some interesting nuggets of analysis:

http://blogs.indiewi...ristopher_Nolan

http://blogs.indiewi..._Phillip_Noyce_

http://blogs.suntime...bullitt_th.html

Again, there's so much more he could go into, but I think he does a good job of explaining some of the important stuff.

To quote a YouTube commenter on The Dark Knight analysis:

this is ridiculous...

Why can't you just enjoy the movie like normal people?

[gkgyver 1,645]

I don't see the point of comparing Williams with Zimmer, they're so completely different in their approach to writing music. It's like comparing Beethoven and the Beatles - they're both good in different ways. I don't complain because Zimmer isn't as good an orchestrator as Williams, and I don't complain because Williams isn't as adept with electronics as Zimmer. I just enjoy their contrasting styles and musical voices for what they are.

And yet, Williams is better at electronics than Zimmer is at orchestrating.Williams weakness in electronics doesn't hurt his music too much, while Zimmer's severe lack of orchestration skills robs his music of any range and flexibility.

Your first statement is impossible to quantify. Your second is a matter of personal taste. I feel there is plenty of range and flexibility in Zimmer's electronic approach, and he doesn't rely on the orchestra enough for his "severe lack of orchestration skill" to damage his music. The orchestra is only a part of Zimmer's palette, he records elements with them to get the sound he wants, maybe only a string section, or a brass section, then brings that back to the studio and integrates it with all the other elements. That's how he creates his sound. Which is why when an orchestra re-records his music, or plays it live, it lacks so much - it's only the orchestral part.

Williams mastery lies in traditional orchestration and conducting skill, Zimmers lies in the use of modern technology, electronics, production and mixing. They use different tools and write different kinds of music.

If Zimmer's strengths lie in modern technology, production and mixing, then, for all that is good and merciful, his place is in the booth or post-production, and not in front of a microphone, talking about sitting in front of virtual music sheets, finding two note themes and ever expanding the lowest bottom of the bass clef.If there is one thing a film composer should not do is limit the possibilities of a movie by limiting his own palette and ideas by his preconceived mindset what real film music should sound like. And Zimmer does that on a regular basis.And before anyone asks, John Williams is one of the most versatile composers in existence. If you can't handle electronics, you can always cover it up with innovative orchestral sounds because electronics are just ornaments.But if you don't know your way around a symphony orchestra, electronics won't save you because the orchestra is the fundament you have to get right if you choose to use it.And Zimmer chose to use it so he should be criticised for the way he uses it over and over and over.