Lincoln SCORE Discussion thread

[crumbs 14,300]

I wonder if MV would be able to answer that, based on other scores recorded outside LA since 2005. Might be a good question for his thread on FSM.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

32 minutes ago, Jay said:

So when @Disco Stu says Lee's Departure is a highlight of the FYC, I'm not sure what he means because that cue was always on the OST.  Unless he's referring to the opening 26 seconds, The "Lincoln and Grant" part, which isn't.

 

BrotherSound's brainfart became my brainfart!  I don't really listen to the FYC much.  The OST is a perfect album.

[Jay 37,281]

I love the FYC, I think both albums are great to listen to.

 

I'm working on a combination edit of both, which I'll probably enjoy the most!

[Incanus 5,713]

8 minutes ago, Jay said:

I love the FYC, I think both albums are great to listen to.

 

I'm working on a combination edit of both, which I'll probably enjoy the most!

Yeah I have combined both into a longer great listening experience. Although I did edit the OST tracks into their approximate film sequence and separated some of the combined pieces.

[Jay 37,281]

The tracks on the FYC album that entirely contain music not on the OST album are

8    No Sixteen-Year-Olds Left

10    The Purpose Of The Amendment

17    Trumpet Hymn

 

The tracks on the FYC album that have some music that is on the OST album, combined with some music that wasn't, are

 

1    Quickstep And The American Process

4    Getting Out The Vote

13    The American Process

14    Lincoln Responds To Southern VP

16    Lincoln And Grant/Lee's Departure

 

The tracks on the FYC album that only contain music that was already on the OST album are

 

2    Sleeping Tad

3    With Malice Toward None

5    The Southern Delegation Arrives (this contains the clean ending, though)

6    Remembering Willie

7    Message From Grant And Decisions (This is only "longer" than the OST version because it's looped)

9    The Telegraph Office

11    Equality Under The Law (this contains the clean opening, though)

12    Welcome To This House (this contains the clean ending, though)

15    City Point

18    Now He Belongs To The Ages
19    End Credits

[Smeltington 1,436]

Did you swap Message From Grant And Decisions and Lincoln Responds To Southern VP on that list?

[Jay 37,281]

The music contained in FYC track "Message From Grant And Decisions" is all in the OST track "The Blue and Grey", it's just looped a lot on the FYC

 

The FYC track "Lincoln Responds To Southern VP" contains the complete version of a cue only heard partially on the OST (inside "The Southern Delegation and the Dream" from 2:06-2:43)

[Smeltington 1,436]

Interesting, in prior JWFan wisdom I thought the Southern VP track was unique. Crumbs' spreadsheet suggests that as well. But I do see some overlap now I'm comparing the tracks.

[BrotherSound 2,242]

41 minutes ago, Jay said:

The music contained in FYC track "Message From Grant And Decisions" is not on the OST at all, though it is similar to music in the OST track "The Blue and Grey"

Hmm, I thought were both 4M28 Rev, though different edits. The OST seems to have a couple of microedits, while the FYC has some looped bars. (As written, the cue is approximately 2:15.)

 

35 minutes ago, Smeltington said:

Interesting, in prior JWFan wisdom I thought the Southern VP track was unique.

Yeah, I really thought so and @Incanus listed it as FYC-only in his breakdown. @Jay Where is this on the OST?

[Jay 37,281]

1 hour ago, BrotherSound said:

Where is this on the OST?

 

1 hour ago, Jay said:

inside "The Southern Delegation and the Dream" from 2:06-2:43

 

[BrotherSound 2,242]

3 hours ago, Jay said:

inside "The Southern Delegation and the Dream" from 2:06-2:43

Ah, looks like I had identified that bit as the wrong dissonant cluster (there’s a similar one in a version of 1M4). The more interesting section with the bassoon melody is only on the FYC. Updated!

[crumbs 14,300]

7 hours ago, Jay said:

The music contained in FYC track "Message From Grant And Decisions" is not on the OST at all, though it is similar to music in the OST track "The Blue and Grey"

 

6 hours ago, BrotherSound said:

Hmm, I thought were both 4M28 Rev, though different edits. The OST seems to have a couple of microedits, while the FYC has some looped bars. (As written, the cue is approximately 2:15.)

 

Comparing the two tracks (OST The Blue and Grey and FYC Message From Grant and Decisions), they look and sound identical except for their endings. The last 1:10 of the FYC version is exclusive to the FYC. The last 0:35 of the OST track is exclusive to the OST (a slightly more ominous ending than the more hopeful FYC version). Other than that, they're the same (and comparing waveforms, they appear to be the same take?)

 

 

Does the OST ending come from 4M28 “Message from Grant and Decisions” and the FYC ending from 4M28 Rev “Message from Grant and Decisions”?

[BrotherSound 2,242]

14 hours ago, crumbs said:

Does the OST ending come from 4M28 “Message from Grant and Decisions” and the FYC ending from 4M28 Rev “Message from Grant and Decisions”?

That’s a good guess, but what seems like an alternate ending in the FYC version appears to have been created entirely by editing, repeating material from elsewhere in the same cue to replace the dissonant section which only appears on the OST. 
 

For instance, compare 1:57-2:10 with 0:48-1:01. So, there doesn’t seem to be anything exclusive to the FYC.

[JohnnyD 1,220]

On 7/30/2020 at 11:54 AM, Jay said:

Yea they came so close to just including the entire score as heard in the film on the FYC album.  Why they elected to drop those 3 spots of music is beyond me, and unfortunate

 

More Bad News, Robert At the Hospital, and Delivering the Message.

 

Correct?

[crumbs 14,300]

2 hours ago, JohnnyD said:

 

More Bad News, Robert At the Hospital, and Delivering the Message.

 

Correct?

 

Yep.

[Joe Brausam 214]

In regards to expanding this I believe the fees would be the same no matter where in America it was recorded.  I’m unaware of the LA Local in the AFM having a different agreement than the rest of our union, but I could be wrong.

[bollemanneke 3,337]

On 6/23/2013 at 4:10 AM, Tom said:

Thank you Miguel. As with all such pieces, I hope Williams records and releases them. If and when he does so, I hope it is with the CSO.

The more I think about the concert version of Getting out the Vote, the more surprise I am with it. It may be the most (or one of the most) drastically changed pieces in terms of OST to concert version of any of Williams' re-workings. Lincoln and Memoirs, with the suite for cello, seem to be two projects that have really inspired him to compose well beyond the movie score.

Is that the one he conducts here?

I think it's an absolutely horrible re-working of an amazing OST cue.

[Jay 37,281]

I have a question about The Elegy Theme (or, Prayer as Williams seems to have called it).

 

Obviously, it's on the OST in two concert arrangements.

 

First, the track just called "Elegy":

 

 

 

Also, another concert arrangement appears in the track "The Southern Delegation and The Dream" from 3:05-end

 

 

There's no doubt those are 2 different concert arrangements of the same theme.

 

 

But now, Incanus's breakdown states the Elegy Theme appears in two film cues, as well.  He says it's in "Remembering Willie" from 0:24-0:47

 

 

And he says it's in Now He Belongs To The Ages from 1:19-1:48

 

 

To my ears, neither of those is the same theme as the Elegy Theme.

 

What do you smart people think?

[Jay 37,281]

Nobody wants to help me out with this?

 

@Incanus? @BrotherSound? @Disco Stu? @Ludwig? @Falstaft?

[Falstaft 2,132]

21 minutes ago, Jay said:

Nobody wants to help me out with this?

 

Yeah, I'm not really hearing it as a thematic recurrence either. Similar texturally and in terms of mood, but the melody isn't there.

[Jay 37,281]

Thanks for chiming in! 

 

Anybody else agree / disagree? 

[mrbellamy 6,272]

Not really hearing it in the first one but I can definitely hear a variation in the second.

 

Compare 0:00-0:06 of "Elegy" with 1:20-1:29 of "Now He Belongs to the Ages"

 

And then compare 0:24-0:29 of "Elegy" with 1:30-1:40 of "Now He Belongs to the Ages"

[Ludwig 1,120]

3 hours ago, Jay said:

Nobody wants to help me out with this?

 

I'm with you, @Jay, and @Falstaft. I don't think the Elegy theme is in those last 2 examples.

 

Generally, I'd say when Williams wants to make reference to a theme, he's pretty darn clear about it. Sure, we've seen examples where he's not, like the use of Anthem of Evil in "Advice", but that's really the exception, one that seems tied to him "putting a bow" on his final SW score, as he himself said.

 

And there wouldn't be much point in being really subtle in thematic references anyway since the whole point is for the audience to gain a better understanding of what's going on when we hear and recognize a theme. And we do that as we're bombarded with images, dialogue, and sound effects. Like Bernard Herrmann said, the best you get is the audience listening with "half an ear". So I think this is why Williams and film music in general isn't usually subtle when it comes to theme statements.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

"Remembering Willie" is so similar in mood it could almost work as an alternate intro to the "Elegy" track to my ears!

[Jay 37,281]

Only up until the piano solo comes in

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Right!

[Jay 37,281]

 

 

On 11/15/2020 at 12:22 PM, mrbellamy said:

Not really hearing it in the first one but I can definitely hear a variation in the second.

 

Compare 0:00-0:06 of "Elegy" with 1:20-1:29 of "Now He Belongs to the Ages"

 

And then compare 0:24-0:29 of "Elegy" with 1:30-1:40 of "Now He Belongs to the Ages"

 

I can kinda hear what you're talking about on these specific timestamps and this is definitely the closest either film cue gets to the theme in the concert arrangement.... 

 

 

On 11/15/2020 at 12:01 PM, Falstaft said:

Yeah, I'm not really hearing it as a thematic recurrence either. Similar texturally and in terms of mood, but the melody isn't there.

 

23 hours ago, Ludwig said:

I'm with you, @Jay, and @Falstaft. I don't think the Elegy theme is in those last 2 examples.

 

Yea, definitely the texture and mood is right there.  But I think the melody isn't directly referenced.  I wonder which came first; Did he write these film cues, then later write a concert arrangement that expounded on the fragmented ideas in them?  Or did he intend "Prayer" to be a theme and wrote the concert arrangements, but then Spielberg didn't like it so he wrote a different melody into these film cues?

 

 

Quote

Generally, I'd say when Williams wants to make reference to a theme, he's pretty darn clear about it. Sure, we've seen examples where he's not, like the use of Anthem of Evil in "Advice", but that's really the exception, one that seems tied to him "putting a bow" on his final SW score, as he himself said.

 

And there wouldn't be much point in being really subtle in thematic references anyway since the whole point is for the audience to gain a better understanding of what's going on when we hear and recognize a theme. And we do that as we're bombarded with images, dialogue, and sound effects. Like Bernard Herrmann said, the best you get is the audience listening with "half an ear". So I think this is why Williams and film music in general isn't usually subtle when it comes to theme statements.

 

Good point.  It's more of a Howard Shore in Middle Earth mode to make these kind of subtle/altered references than a Williams thing

[Jay 37,281]

Listening to this score on a rainy New England morning and falling in love with it all over again.  What a masterpiece.

 

This time I noticed one really cool part I never noticed before; The way the piano plays underneath the trumpet solo version of the "With Malice Towards None" theme in the End credits track from 7:40-8:25.  The entire piano line underneath the solo is really nice, but I liked how at the very beginning, the piano is basically doing the "Get Out The Vote" rhythm.  Very cool!

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

21 hours ago, Jay said:

Listening to this score on a rainy New England morning and falling in love with it all over again.  What a masterpiece.

 

This time I noticed one really cool part I never noticed before; The way the piano plays underneath the trumpet solo version of the "With Malice Towards None" theme in the End credits track from 7:40-8:25.  The entire piano line underneath the solo is really nice, but I liked how at the very beginning, the piano is almost mimicking the "Get Out The Vote" rhythm.  Very cool!

A contender for my favorite moment from the entire score. Never noticed the Get Out The Vote connection before.  I always thought it was just a self-contained counterpoint line.

[Jay 37,281]

It very well could be, and I could just be hearing things!  I'm not music expert by any means.  it just made me think of Get Out The Vote when I noticed it yesterday.  How I had never noticed that piano line under that solo in the past 10 years, I have no idea...

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

4 hours ago, Jay said:

It very well could be, and I could just be hearing things!  I'm not music expert by any means.  it just made me think of Get Out The Vote when I noticed it yesterday.  How I had never noticed that piano line under that solo in the past 10 years, I have no idea...

It wouldn't surprise me if it was.  The score is full of subtle touches like that

[Jay 37,281]

What I loved about the score when listening yesterday, was that during almost all of its running time, it is playing one of the film's many themes.  There is relatively little non-thematic underscoring in this score.  And when so many of Lincoln's themes are among JW's all time greatest, it makes for one heckuva listen, every single time

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

And the orchestra, the performance, it is so perfectly in balance!!

[Disco Stu 15,495]

On 05/10/2021 at 12:35 PM, Jay said:

Listening to this score on a rainy New England morning and falling in love with it all over again.  What a masterpiece.

 

This time I noticed one really cool part I never noticed before; The way the piano plays underneath the trumpet solo version of the "With Malice Towards None" theme in the End credits track from 7:40-8:25.  The entire piano line underneath the solo is really nice, but I liked how at the very beginning, the piano is almost mimicking the "Get Out The Vote" rhythm.  Very cool!

 

By the way that piano part is also in the concert arrangement (both the concert "People's House" and "With Malice Toward None").  I've always thought it added to the hymn-like spiritual feeling of the melody.

 

 

[Jay 37,281]

Wow, thanks for the reminder that suite exists.  Holy cow I forgot how great that Getting Out The Vote concert arrangement is!  I wish it had been recorded for the OST album (or the Spielberg/Williams III instead of the Piano Solo version of WMTN...)

[artguy360 1,843]

The Lincoln soundtrack is incredible and deserves even more appreciation than it gets. I think it is inarguably his most orchestrally and melodically refined work of this late period of JW's career. 

[Jurassic Shark 12,024]

How's that?

[Disco Stu 15,495]

It's certainly my #1 favorite of the "retirement" years (ie, post-2005).

[Incanus 5,713]

1 hour ago, artguy360 said:

The Lincoln soundtrack is incredible and deserves even more appreciation than it gets. I think it is inarguably his most orchestrally and melodically refined work of this late period of JW's career. 

I agree. It is also a score that feels a very different experience on the album compared to the film. The score in the movie very much wants to stay out of the way of the performances and comes in mostly subtly to support the drama with gentle hand. On the album it feels like Williams wanted to create almost a concept album to express his musical feelings on the film and Lincoln himself and it is a beautifully rounded effort.

 

His writing is deceptively simple and direct and I feel that much of the music's power resides in the solo performances of the members of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. I even remember reading a review where a critic commented on this beautiful humane quality of the music when he mentioned that you can hear the almost in concert or live recording style the breathing of the flute player in during the end credits which to his mind lent another beautiful touch to project. Similarly I remember that hearing Christopher Martin's beautiful, poignant trumpet solo alone on the aptly named FYC album track Trumpet Hymn underscoring Lincoln's departure to the Ford's Theater at the end of the film could reduce me to tears with the sheer direct emotion the wonderful musician was able to project at that moment. And this certainly applies to the other soloists as well.

 

And while Williams chose to veer away from adapting or directly quoting traditional American period music, his score is informed by American musical tradition to its very bones. I can't imagine a more Americana score. 

[Jay 37,281]

Yea it seems as though Williams wrote more music direct to picture than Spielberg ultimately used (1M5 Mary's First Scene, 1M10 The People, 2M12 Talk With Tad are all completely unused for example), so a future expansion should have a bunch of music we've never even heard - not only completely unused cues but also bits and pieces of cues Spielberg did use but dialed out portions of.

 

The OST album is a blend of film cues along with 4 concert arrangements that were seemingly recorded specifically for the album, and 3 long arrangements that were likely written as consideration for the end credits but are essentially are 3 more concert arrangements.  When you then add in the Getting Out The Vote concert arrangement he later put together this is a score with some of the most concerts arrangements Williams has done which is awesome.

 

About that Trumpet Hymm track, while its used in the film for Lincoln departing for Ford's theater, it was written for his battlefield visit, and Spielberg put it in a different place.  Williams wrote a cue called "To Ford's Theater" that has both a revised version and then another revised ending, but we don't have a drop of it anywhere so who knows if it was recorded (but it probably was).

[Incanus 5,713]

Just now, Jay said:

About that Trumpet Hymm track, while its used in the film for Lincoln departing for Ford's theater, it was written for his battlefield visit and Spielberg put it in a different place.  Williams wrote a cue called "To Ford's Theater" that has both a revised version and then another revised ending, but we don't have a drop of of in any place so who knows if it was recorded (but it probably was).

Interesting. It still fits the Lincoln's departure scene perfectly emotion wise. That old Steven knows his stuff.  

 

An expansion of this score would be brilliant! 

[Jay 37,281]

It sure would be - damn those post-2005 union fees!

[Incanus 5,713]

Just now, Jay said:

It sure would be - damn those post-2005 union fees!

Oh yeah!  

 

Damn them! Damn them to hell!

[Disco Stu 15,495]

I know we've had this conversation before, but do we know the post-05 fee structure would apply to the Chicago Symphony?  Although even if it didn't I'm sure there's some similarly prohibitive contract in place with the Chicago union.

[Incanus 5,713]

20 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

I know we've had this conversation before, but do we know the post-05 fee structure would apply to the Chicago Symphony?  Although even if it didn't I'm sure there's some similarly prohibitive contract in place with the Chicago union.

Also the credits in the CD booklet list those few Hollywood studio veterans (including e.g. Don Williams and Mike Valerio) as additional musicians, who I think perform only on Getting Out the Vote (although the full extent of their involvement in the scoring is a mystery). I wonder if that would have any effect on the reuse fees.

[Jay 37,281]

I did wonder that as well about Lincoln being a Chicago recorded score, and I think we learned that it is the American Federation of Musicians - it's not an LA thing.

 

https://www.afm.org/

[pete 903]

9 hours ago, Jay said:

 

 

The OST album is a blend of film cues along with 4 concert arrangements that were seemingly recorded specifically for the album

 

Excuse my ignorance,... Are those four concert arrangements: With Malice Towards None (orchestral and piano - is the piano version considered a concert version?), The People's House, and The American Process?

[Disco Stu 15,495]

I think I remember that The American Process is a combo of two score cues, not a concert arrangement

[pete 903]

1 hour ago, Disco Stu said:

I think I remember that The American Process is a combo of two score cues, not a concert arrangement

 

Yes, three actually. I just saw this detailed breakdown on the previous page of this thread.
I'm still not sure what the four concert versions are.  Argh, Elegy is another. So People's House, With Malice Towards None (Orchestra), Elegy..... and one more?

[Jay 37,281]

On 08/10/2021 at 10:14 PM, pete said:

Excuse my ignorance,... Are those four concert arrangements: With Malice Towards None (orchestral and piano - is the piano version considered a concert version?), The People's House, and The American Process?

 

On 09/10/2021 at 9:51 AM, pete said:

I'm still not sure what the four concert versions are.  Argh, Elegy is another. So People's House, With Malice Towards None (Orchestra), Elegy..... and one more?

 

 

In alphabetical order by the title on the sheet music, the 4 concert arrangements on the Lincoln OST are:

 

1. Hymn (Piano) = OST 17    With Malice Toward None (Piano Solo)    1:32
2. Hymn (Strings) = OST 6    With Malice Toward None    1:51
3. Prayer (Orchestra) = OST 13    Elegy    2:35
4. Prayer (Strings) = it's inside the track OST 8    The Southern Delegation and the Dream    from [3:05-end] (1:38)

 

Two things to note about these.  One is that the "Hymm" theme or "With Malice Towards None" theme if you will, was probably not intended to be a recurring theme in the score.  The only score cue it actually appears in is the final cue of the movie (7M58 Rev Now He Belongs To The Ages), and its revised ending (7M58 Rev String Ending).  In either case, it was only meant to play under the footage of Lincoln reciting his second inaugural address, and that's it.  As originally intended by Williams it was a one-off melody to play under this historic speech without any prior setup.

 

Later the theme played on trumpet became the 6th version of the "Lincoln's Battlefield Visit" cue (7M52v6 Trumpet Version) as well, but as that is the sixth revision of a cue (and Spielberg ultimately played a cue recorded for reel 1 over the battlefield visit scene in the final cut) it's clearly a last minute thing.  Spielberg tracking this trumpet rendition into the scene of Lincoln leaving for Ford's Theater instead of the cue Williams wrote for that scene (7M54    To Ford's Theatre) does end up having a nice effect of setting up the melody before you hear it a few moments later under the speech.  Man, I love this trumpet version and I so wish Williams had included it on the OST album  Anyway, other than the speech footage and that one late cue revision, all of this theme's appearances are in concert arrangements / end credits (the two Hymm tracks above and both 7M60 versions below)

 

The next note is that the "Prayer" theme doesn't actually appear in any film cues at all.  So it does not appear in the film at all, and only appears on the OST in these two concert arrangements listed above.  My pure speculation is that Williams demoed it for Spielberg, and Spielberg didn't think it was right for the film, but Williams wanted it on the OST album anyway.  Williams must have really liked this theme because there's also a THIRD concert arrangement of it found in the sheets - Prayer (Brass) - but we have no idea if that was recorded or not.

 

 

Moving on, there's 3 pieces that I believe were all recorded as end credits contenders; The latter 2 DEFINITELY were, the first is debatable and it very well could been originally been recorded only for the album, but Spielberg happened to stick it in the end credits later - who knows

 

1. The People's House
   1. heard in its entirety as OST 1   The People's House   4:34
   2. Appears again, but only bars 9-53, inside OST 16    The Peterson House and Finale    from [3:14-5:43]
2. 7M60    Hymn Ver
   1. bars 1-96 appears in OST 12    Freedom's Call    from [0:00-4:46]
   2. bars 97-111 have never been released anywhere
3. 7M60    With Malice Toward None Ver.
   1. almost the entire composition appears in OST 16    The Peterson House and Finale    from [5:43-9:29], but this is actually only bars 1-68[from [5:43-9:25] and then a quick jump to the final bar (bar 78) from [9:25-9:29].  In other words bars 69-77 are sliced out of this appearance
   2. Luckily, this cue is on the OST in a second place, in OST 4    The American Process    from [2:10-end].  This appearance begins in the middle of bar 49 and run through to the end, so you can take from [3:10-end] of this track and edit it into the [9:25] point of track 16 and end up with a complete performance of this concert arrangement
   3. Additionally, it's very clear that they recorded an alternate piano performance to use when opening the cue with bar 49;  If you listen carefully you will hear that [2:10-2:24] of track 4 is different than [8:25-8:37] of track 16; The track 16 recording is from the recording of the whole concert arrangement and the piano there comes nicely out of the brass section just before it, while the track 4 version is a more gentle performance of that piano bit, which creates a nice clean opening for the piano section of the cue.  I believe this new clean opening was recorded for the film, because the scene about 23 minutes into the film where it plays (the end of Lincoln's talk with Preston Blair and then him getting in his carriage to leave for his task) opens with the new piano opening.  I'd speculate Williams either never scored this scene or Spielberg didn't like what Williams wrote, so tracked this cue into it and liked that, but there was no way to get the piano opening clean due it it overlapping the brass section before it in the full recording, so they did a quick pick-up take with a more gentle piano opening for the scene - and then Williams put this pick-up opening on the album in track 4.  One final note is that luckily this film edit appears on the FYC in track 3 with a fully clean opening of that new piano intro recording, so if you want to create a track called like "7M60 With Malice Towards None Ver (Short Edit)" or something, you can start with the opening of FYC 3 and then segue into the unedited rest of the concert arrangement as describe above (mostly from OST 16 with the ending from OST 4)

Phew!

 

The reason I think "The People's House" might have always been intended to be the start of the end credits is that the final cue of the movie is 7M58 and the two other End Credits arrangements are 7M60, so The People's House could be what 7M59 is, but it just didn't have that number yet when the sheet music was written.

 

 

Anyways, everything else on the OST album, other than the 7 compositions laid out above, are film cues written for specific scenes.