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Lincoln SCORE Discussion thread


Jay
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I wonder if MV would be able to answer that, based on other scores recorded outside LA since 2005. Might be a good question for his thread on FSM.

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32 minutes ago, Jay said:

So when @Disco Stu says Lee's Departure is a highlight of the FYC, I'm not sure what he means because that cue was always on the OST.  Unless he's referring to the opening 26 seconds, The "Lincoln and Grant" part, which isn't.

 

BrotherSound's brainfart became my brainfart!  I don't really listen to the FYC much.  The OST is a perfect album.

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I love the FYC, I think both albums are great to listen to.

 

I'm working on a combination edit of both, which I'll probably enjoy the most!

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8 minutes ago, Jay said:

I love the FYC, I think both albums are great to listen to.

 

I'm working on a combination edit of both, which I'll probably enjoy the most!

Yeah I have combined both into a longer great listening experience. Although I did edit the OST tracks into their approximate film sequence and separated some of the combined pieces.

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The tracks on the FYC album that entirely contain music not on the OST album are


8    No Sixteen-Year-Olds Left

10    The Purpose Of The Amendment

17    Trumpet Hymn

 

The tracks on the FYC album that have some music that is on the OST album, combined with some music that wasn't, are

 

1    Quickstep And The American Process

4    Getting Out The Vote

13    The American Process

14    Lincoln Responds To Southern VP

16    Lincoln And Grant/Lee's Departure

 

The tracks on the FYC album that only contain music that was already on the OST album are

 

2    Sleeping Tad

3    With Malice Toward None

5    The Southern Delegation Arrives (this contains the clean ending, though)

6    Remembering Willie

7    Message From Grant And Decisions (This is only "longer" than the OST version because it's looped)

9    The Telegraph Office

11    Equality Under The Law (this contains the clean opening, though)

12    Welcome To This House (this contains the clean ending, though)

15    City Point

18    Now He Belongs To The Ages
19    End Credits

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The music contained in FYC track "Message From Grant And Decisions" is all in the OST track "The Blue and Grey", it's just looped a lot on the FYC

 

The FYC track "Lincoln Responds To Southern VP" contains the complete version of a cue only heard partially on the OST (inside "The Southern Delegation and the Dream" from 2:06-2:43)

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Interesting, in prior JWFan wisdom I thought the Southern VP track was unique. Crumbs' spreadsheet suggests that as well. But I do see some overlap now I'm comparing the tracks.

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41 minutes ago, Jay said:

The music contained in FYC track "Message From Grant And Decisions" is not on the OST at all, though it is similar to music in the OST track "The Blue and Grey"


Hmm, I thought were both 4M28 Rev, though different edits. The OST seems to have a couple of microedits, while the FYC has some looped bars. (As written, the cue is approximately 2:15.)

 

35 minutes ago, Smeltington said:

Interesting, in prior JWFan wisdom I thought the Southern VP track was unique.


Yeah, I really thought so and @Incanus listed it as FYC-only in his breakdown. @Jay Where is this on the OST?

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1 hour ago, BrotherSound said:

Where is this on the OST?

 

1 hour ago, Jay said:

inside "The Southern Delegation and the Dream" from 2:06-2:43

 

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3 hours ago, Jay said:

inside "The Southern Delegation and the Dream" from 2:06-2:43


Ah, looks like I had identified that bit as the wrong dissonant cluster (there’s a similar one in a version of 1M4). The more interesting section with the bassoon melody is only on the FYC. Updated!

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7 hours ago, Jay said:

The music contained in FYC track "Message From Grant And Decisions" is not on the OST at all, though it is similar to music in the OST track "The Blue and Grey"

 

6 hours ago, BrotherSound said:

Hmm, I thought were both 4M28 Rev, though different edits. The OST seems to have a couple of microedits, while the FYC has some looped bars. (As written, the cue is approximately 2:15.)

 

Comparing the two tracks (OST The Blue and Grey and FYC Message From Grant and Decisions), they look and sound identical except for their endings. The last 1:10 of the FYC version is exclusive to the FYC. The last 0:35 of the OST track is exclusive to the OST (a slightly more ominous ending than the more hopeful FYC version). Other than that, they're the same (and comparing waveforms, they appear to be the same take?)

 

image.png

 

Does the OST ending come from 4M28 “Message from Grant and Decisions” and the FYC ending from 4M28 Rev “Message from Grant and Decisions”?

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14 hours ago, crumbs said:

Does the OST ending come from 4M28 “Message from Grant and Decisions” and the FYC ending from 4M28 Rev “Message from Grant and Decisions”?


That’s a good guess, but what seems like an alternate ending in the FYC version appears to have been created entirely by editing, repeating material from elsewhere in the same cue to replace the dissonant section which only appears on the OST. 
 

For instance, compare 1:57-2:10 with 0:48-1:01. So, there doesn’t seem to be anything exclusive to the FYC.

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On 7/30/2020 at 11:54 AM, Jay said:

Yea they came so close to just including the entire score as heard in the film on the FYC album.  Why they elected to drop those 3 spots of music is beyond me, and unfortunate

 

More Bad News, Robert At the Hospital, and Delivering the Message.

 

Correct?

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In regards to expanding this I believe the fees would be the same no matter where in America it was recorded.  I’m unaware of the LA Local in the AFM having a different agreement than the rest of our union, but I could be wrong.

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  • 3 months later...
On 6/23/2013 at 4:10 AM, Tom said:

Thank you Miguel. As with all such pieces, I hope Williams records and releases them. If and when he does so, I hope it is with the CSO.

The more I think about the concert version of Getting out the Vote, the more surprise I am with it. It may be the most (or one of the most) drastically changed pieces in terms of OST to concert version of any of Williams' re-workings. Lincoln and Memoirs, with the suite for cello, seem to be two projects that have really inspired him to compose well beyond the movie score.

Is that the one he conducts here?

I think it's an absolutely horrible re-working of an amazing OST cue.

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I have a question about The Elegy Theme (or, Prayer as Williams seems to have called it).

 

Obviously, it's on the OST in two concert arrangements.

 

First, the track just called "Elegy":

 

 

 

Also, another concert arrangement appears in the track "The Southern Delegation and The Dream" from 3:05-end

 

 

There's no doubt those are 2 different concert arrangements of the same theme.

 

 

But now, Incanus's breakdown states the Elegy Theme appears in two film cues, as well.  He says it's in "Remembering Willie" from 0:24-0:47

 

 

And he says it's in Now He Belongs To The Ages from 1:19-1:48

 

 

To my ears, neither of those is the same theme as the Elegy Theme.

 

What do you smart people think?

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Not really hearing it in the first one but I can definitely hear a variation in the second.

 

Compare 0:00-0:06 of "Elegy" with 1:20-1:29 of "Now He Belongs to the Ages"

 

And then compare 0:24-0:29 of "Elegy" with 1:30-1:40 of "Now He Belongs to the Ages"

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3 hours ago, Jay said:

Nobody wants to help me out with this?

 

I'm with you, @Jay, and @Falstaft. I don't think the Elegy theme is in those last 2 examples.

 

Generally, I'd say when Williams wants to make reference to a theme, he's pretty darn clear about it. Sure, we've seen examples where he's not, like the use of Anthem of Evil in "Advice", but that's really the exception, one that seems tied to him "putting a bow" on his final SW score, as he himself said.

 

And there wouldn't be much point in being really subtle in thematic references anyway since the whole point is for the audience to gain a better understanding of what's going on when we hear and recognize a theme. And we do that as we're bombarded with images, dialogue, and sound effects. Like Bernard Herrmann said, the best you get is the audience listening with "half an ear". So I think this is why Williams and film music in general isn't usually subtle when it comes to theme statements.

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On 11/15/2020 at 12:22 PM, mrbellamy said:

Not really hearing it in the first one but I can definitely hear a variation in the second.

 

Compare 0:00-0:06 of "Elegy" with 1:20-1:29 of "Now He Belongs to the Ages"

 

And then compare 0:24-0:29 of "Elegy" with 1:30-1:40 of "Now He Belongs to the Ages"

 

I can kinda hear what you're talking about on these specific timestamps and this is definitely the closest either film cue gets to the theme in the concert arrangement.... 

 

 

On 11/15/2020 at 12:01 PM, Falstaft said:

Yeah, I'm not really hearing it as a thematic recurrence either. Similar texturally and in terms of mood, but the melody isn't there.

 

23 hours ago, Ludwig said:

I'm with you, @Jay, and @Falstaft. I don't think the Elegy theme is in those last 2 examples.

 

Yea, definitely the texture and mood is right there.  But I think the melody isn't directly referenced.  I wonder which came first; Did he write these film cues, then later write a concert arrangement that expounded on the fragmented ideas in them?  Or did he intend "Prayer" to be a theme and wrote the concert arrangements, but then Spielberg didn't like it so he wrote a different melody into these film cues?

 

 

Quote

Generally, I'd say when Williams wants to make reference to a theme, he's pretty darn clear about it. Sure, we've seen examples where he's not, like the use of Anthem of Evil in "Advice", but that's really the exception, one that seems tied to him "putting a bow" on his final SW score, as he himself said.

 

And there wouldn't be much point in being really subtle in thematic references anyway since the whole point is for the audience to gain a better understanding of what's going on when we hear and recognize a theme. And we do that as we're bombarded with images, dialogue, and sound effects. Like Bernard Herrmann said, the best you get is the audience listening with "half an ear". So I think this is why Williams and film music in general isn't usually subtle when it comes to theme statements.

 

Good point.  It's more of a Howard Shore in Middle Earth mode to make these kind of subtle/altered references than a Williams thing

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  • 10 months later...
21 hours ago, Jay said:

Listening to this score on a rainy New England morning and falling in love with it all over again.  What a masterpiece.

 

This time I noticed one really cool part I never noticed before; The way the piano plays underneath the trumpet solo version of the "With Malice Towards None" theme in the End credits track from 7:40-8:25.  The entire piano line underneath the solo is really nice, but I liked how at the very beginning, the piano is almost mimicking the "Get Out The Vote" rhythm.  Very cool!

A contender for my favorite moment from the entire score. Never noticed the Get Out The Vote connection before.  I always thought it was just a self-contained counterpoint line.

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It very well could be, and I could just be hearing things!  I'm not music expert by any means.  it just made me think of Get Out The Vote when I noticed it yesterday.  How I had never noticed that piano line under that solo in the past 10 years, I have no idea...

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4 hours ago, Jay said:

It very well could be, and I could just be hearing things!  I'm not music expert by any means.  it just made me think of Get Out The Vote when I noticed it yesterday.  How I had never noticed that piano line under that solo in the past 10 years, I have no idea...

It wouldn't surprise me if it was.  The score is full of subtle touches like that

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On 05/10/2021 at 12:35 PM, Jay said:

Listening to this score on a rainy New England morning and falling in love with it all over again.  What a masterpiece.

 

This time I noticed one really cool part I never noticed before; The way the piano plays underneath the trumpet solo version of the "With Malice Towards None" theme in the End credits track from 7:40-8:25.  The entire piano line underneath the solo is really nice, but I liked how at the very beginning, the piano is almost mimicking the "Get Out The Vote" rhythm.  Very cool!

 

By the way that piano part is also in the concert arrangement (both the concert "People's House" and "With Malice Toward None").  I've always thought it added to the hymn-like spiritual feeling of the melody.

 

 

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Wow, thanks for the reminder that suite exists.  Holy cow I forgot how great that Getting Out The Vote concert arrangement is!  I wish it had been recorded for the OST album (or the Spielberg/Williams III instead of the Piano Solo version of WMTN...)

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Just now, Jay said:

About that Trumpet Hymm track, while its used in the film for Lincoln departing for Ford's theater, it was written for his battlefield visit and Spielberg put it in a different place.  Williams wrote a cue called "To Ford's Theater" that has both a revised version and then another revised ending, but we don't have a drop of of in any place so who knows if it was recorded (but it probably was).

Interesting. It still fits the Lincoln's departure scene perfectly emotion wise. That old Steven knows his stuff. :) 

 

An expansion of this score would be brilliant! 

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It sure would be - damn those post-2005 union fees!

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Just now, Jay said:

It sure would be - damn those post-2005 union fees!

Oh yeah! :( 

 

Damn them! Damn them to hell!

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I know we've had this conversation before, but do we know the post-05 fee structure would apply to the Chicago Symphony?  Although even if it didn't I'm sure there's some similarly prohibitive contract in place with the Chicago union.

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20 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

I know we've had this conversation before, but do we know the post-05 fee structure would apply to the Chicago Symphony?  Although even if it didn't I'm sure there's some similarly prohibitive contract in place with the Chicago union.

Also the credits in the CD booklet list those few Hollywood studio veterans (including e.g. Don Williams and Mike Valerio) as additional musicians, who I think perform only on Getting Out the Vote (although the full extent of their involvement in the scoring is a mystery). I wonder if that would have any effect on the reuse fees.

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I did wonder that as well about Lincoln being a Chicago recorded score, and I think we learned that it is the American Federation of Musicians - it's not an LA thing.

 

https://www.afm.org/

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9 hours ago, Jay said:

 

 

The OST album is a blend of film cues along with 4 concert arrangements that were seemingly recorded specifically for the album

 

Excuse my ignorance,... Are those four concert arrangements: With Malice Towards None (orchestral and piano - is the piano version considered a concert version?), The People's House, and The American Process?

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1 hour ago, Disco Stu said:

I think I remember that The American Process is a combo of two score cues, not a concert arrangement

 

Yes, three actually. I just saw this detailed breakdown on the previous page of this thread.
I'm still not sure what the four concert versions are.  Argh, Elegy is another. So People's House, With Malice Towards None (Orchestra), Elegy..... and one more?

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