Similarities between Howard Shore's LOTR scores and John Williams' scores

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

I would say over the last decade and half John Williams' stylistic transition is akin to the artistic and architectural transition from Baroque to the monstrosity that was Rococo.

Everything just ended up looking crazy and busy.

[Incanus 5,713]

I would add that the change in Williams' style is also a reflection of the change in the film industry. If you look at his concert works they are as clear lined as ever during this whole period. And not everything Williams has written in this time is busy or crazy or frenetic, just the busy, frenetic and crazy adventure/action films. Again they rely on the score to do a lot of the pushing and driving of the scenes, especially SW Prequels but also the other ones, the pulse very much coming from the score. Williams replies with very dense and forceful music, layered and relentless. You can see that the thematic considerations or leaner architectural choices change to heavily kinetic ones. I do not say that this is a good turn or change but I am mere making an observation on the external reasons and impetus for this change.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I would say over the last decade and half John Williams' stylistic transition is akin to the artistic and architectural transition from Baroque to the monstrosity that was Rococo.

Everything just ended up looking crazy and busy.

Rococo is evidence that LSD must have existed before the 20th century.

[publicist 4,643]

I think Goldsmith's was in the famous AOL interview...maybe. John's was in a video interview.

I faintly remember, of Williams i only remember him ct. JG in a SOUNDTRACK! interview, naming him as composer of BASIC INSTINCT and RAMBO and i always asked myself 'does JW really knows about RAMBO films and has actually seen BI?' - we're talking about a man who never watched a vampire movie till the ripe age of 48.

Good to see the discussion has finally reached the prequel stage.

[Hlao-roo 389]

It'd be interesting to see how Williams would score The Empire Strikes Back (let's say the original theatrical release) today, were he given comparable resources and time constraints. It would help us isolate somewhat, if imperfectly and unscientifically, the deliberate adjustments he's made in response to changes in filmmaking (editing, pacing, sound, etc) from the changes that have arisen more as a result of cultural trends, personal artistic evolution, and industry/post-production pressures.

[publicist 4,643]

I hear fewer themes and no 'Asteroid Field'

[Incanus 5,713]

That would be an interesting experiment.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

And doable. JW doesn't remember scoring TESB.

[King Mark 3,624]

So far I've not read any posts in this thread and try to keep it that way

I fear what atrocities Wojo has said in the past 3 pages

[Incanus 5,713]

Incanus: KM, why does the floor move?

KM: Give me your torch.

KM: LotR. Why'd it have to be LotR?

Incanus: LotR fans, very dangerous. You go first!

[Hlao-roo 389]

I hear fewer themes and no 'Asteroid Field'

Yeah, I'm guessing a less romantic approach to 'The Asteroid Field,' even with the old-school editing of the scene.

[Incanus 5,713]

I would suspect also a less obviously thematically driven approach in general, the large themes replaced by more malleable smaller musical ideas. The action might be still handled with leaner hand but might be that the drive would be paramount still.

But it is still a question of how would Mr. Lucas allow Williams to score the film today? He is a forceful and very articulate and opinionated when it comes to his sequels. I remember reading a transcript of a spotting session of RotS in one the Making Of books and he was very hands on down to the individual themes that should be used. The director's demands and composer's inspiration and inclinations might or might not go hand in hand.

[Hlao-roo 389]

I suppose that while we're fantasizing, Lucas would be encased in carbonite during the scoring process.

I wonder if Williams, when he does one of his bits in which he conducts one of his classic scores in sync with the film, he's ever thinking to his perfectionist self, "There's no way I'd do that today."

[Incanus 5,713]

I think he does that quite often as he says frequently in interviews that he doesn't like going back to his old work as he always thinks he could have done better. I think it is very natural part of artistic creation. Age, experience and perspective all give insights that you might have not had at the moment of the creation of this or that work, With more time and thought something might have become better but in a highly scheduled life, Williams often compares this to journalism, there is a deadline to be met. You have to let go at some point to finish on time. I think most artists would doodle and revise and nip and tuck and shape and polish their works to infinity to improve them but there is skill in letting things go at some point as well, the art of finishing and ending your work. But sometimes the schedules get the best out of us and by no means I am saying that more time or effort or thought might improved all works as sometimes the rough edges are what make the art or piece of art interesting, engaging or beautiful.

That said we could see Williams' numerous concertized versions of his film music as his personal attempts to improve on his work, to make it better and musically more satisfying both to himself and to the audiences.

[Hlao-roo 389]

No doubt, but I suppose I'm thinking less in terms of "a nip here, a tuck there," and more in terms of significant changes in style or approach. ("Wow, I spend a lot of time developing this theme here and using it to drive the scene, but if I could redo this today, I think I would do something more atmospheric and viscerally basic, perhaps growling brass laid over a bed of chaotic percussion.")

[Incanus 5,713]

I am sure he thinks about that too, the different approach he might have taken to any possible scene. Improving might mean also a different approach, whether based on the composer's current tastes and views or instinct of how such a scene could be scored effectively.

A good example of composer's instinct VS director's instinct and how it affects the scoring process comes from RotS when Williams would have approached the Jedi Purge scene in militaristic and aggressive way with a march and Lucas wanted a more elegiac approach, which was then taken up by Williams in the score. Williams would have chosen, I guess you could say, the obvious choice in that scene but the director wanted to emphasize the underlying tragedy of the whole sequence. Same goes for the famous Binary Sunset from Star Wars, where Williams approached the scen through mood first and after Lucas' suggestion made it more tied to the emotion, with great results.

This illustrates how difficult it is sometimes to find the point of view while scoring a scene or a whole film. Do you go for the obvious, the surface, the subext, the mood and the atmosphere? Do you employ a theme or do a more textural cue? As Williams himself has said, the choices for any scene are myriad but the film composer has to find his own solution to it, which is just his way of looking at it or expressing it musically, not necessarily the best or only solution.

[Quintus 5,399]

KM's loss is our gain: this has been the best thread in ages.

[publicist 4,643]

A good example of composer's instinct VS director's instinct and how it affects the scoring process comes from RotS when Williams would have approached the Jedi Purge scene in militaristic and aggressive way with a march and Lucas wanted a more elegiac approach, which was then taken up by Williams in the score. Williams would have chosen, I guess you could say, the obvious choice in that scene but the director wanted to emphasize the underlying tragedy of the whole sequence.

Add to that HARRY POTTER III (pardon, no more cutes-y Disney sugar?), or even PAPILLON (Musette waltz, no way!) and SUM OF ALL FEARS (Hebrew prayer by opera singer over the main titles? My ass!) - and you arrive at the inevitable conclusion that often enough our beloved composers are hailed for things they have written in the end, but left to their own devices, would have chosen a much more conventional route. This certainly reflects the role of film composer as low in the filmic food chain, so they probably have a harder time thinking outside the box, having endured the cruel results certainly often enough earlier in their career, it still makes me think how much more we would have if directors or producers would constantly challenge composers to come up with more unusual approaches.

The only recent examples of this i can think of are Marco Beltrami's SOUL SURFER and whatever Goldenthal was doing with THE TEMPEST (but that was artsy stuff, anyway).

[Hlao-roo 389]

Hey film composers, you didn't build that!

[gkgyver 1,645]

So far I've not read any posts in this thread and try to keep it that way

I fear what atrocities Wojo has said in the past 3 pages

And yet you are here.King Mark is in deep denial. At night, when his neighbours have gone to sleep, he unplugs his phone and shuts down his cell phone for fear of being heard, opens the double wall on his bookshelf where he keeps his dark secret, all three LotR CR, puts Return of the King into his stereo, turns the volume to a minimum, sits in front of his speakers to the stirring brass in The Siege Of Gondor, muttering in tears "I just love it".

[wanner251 17]

Could someone please remind me again what it is that is so blazingly wonderful about Shore's LOTR scores? I have a tendency to forget. That isn't to say that I hate them. I actually like them very much, owning all 3 of the "complete" box sets. I listen to them quite often, but I never seem to think to myself, "Oh what an amazingly beautiful and meaningful piece of score." Musically it always seems pretty ho-hum, though enjoyable to listen to. I don't find it to be genius on any level. The themes are short and, though nice, lack depth because they are so harmonically driven.

I want some real evidence that will make me think twice because I feel like I'm just not getting it.

[Incanus 5,713]

I don't think any amount of convincing or rationalization by other people of how enjoyable or intelligent or emotional the music is can make you change your mind about it. It may perhaps enlighten you to some aspects of it but if you find it dull you find it dull. You can demand evidence yet if the music is not enough, there isn't much pure talk can do to rectify that. Picking music intellectually apart is not going to help if the music itself does not evoke any emotional response.

I am a very critical when it comes to adaptations of my favourite novel, Lord of the Rings, especially the films and all involved with them and at first I was quite skeptical if Shore could pull this great task off. I had hoped he could do the nuance and depth of the world of the novel justice and capture this sense of antiquity and of mythical and as such a bit foreign yet at once familiar feel of Tolkien's work. I listened to the CD of FotR in the autumn of 2001 and was impressed yet not entirely convinced. Only after watching the film I was slowly beginning to think that Shore had indeed succeeded in the near impossible task and during the next few years he proved to be the man for the job, more than that, a man with an admirable affinity for this world and layers of the story. His music sounded fresh and ancient at the same time, his composition was highly thoughtful and even after parsing it for years on my own and on the internet with a highly observant and positive circle of fans it still allows for more discoveries of nuance and details. For me most of the music just falls into place as music and musical story telling, which is emotionally resonant and intellectually rewarding.

And here not to try to convince but to illuminate are a few thoughts on Shore's themes in LotR:

Thematically Shore's music has left some people wanting because of the numerous seemingly short motivic ideas he has running through these three scores, that do not offer these listeners enough musical identification. In a sense Shore's way of handling things is a bit against the traditional long lined main melody approach of many film composers like Goldsmith, Williams, Horner etc. But I feel Shore is doing something very different in the highly leitmotific world of his scores, more akin to Wagner's sense of leitmotif than the general idea of long themes used in film music. Shore's music continually weaves these smaller themes, also made easier to implement by their relative brevity, into rather complex whole, the scores a continous ebb and flow of these motifs, much like in an opera. He certainly develops them satisfyingly and in multiple ways, orchestrationally, joining them with other themes to form new ideas to illustrate the story's progression, drawing constantly slightly different variations from the basic set of colours in any given thematic idea. Also the use of these larger thematic families sharing certain characteristics, although focused on illustrating cultures and interconnected ideas within the cultures in Shore's work, is quite Wagnerian.

I have mentioned before in this thread that Shore also adeptly constructs larger musical figures from the different elements of the music. The themes can be and are used in conjunction to form bigger more complex ideas, a good example the ancillary Mordor motifs that nearly all can be played in layers, one on top of the other. E.g. the Descending Third, the Mordor Skip Beat, The Threat of Mordor, The Way to Mordor all reveal more connections throughout the musical story as does the Hobbit musical material, the Isengard material etc. And I think when addressing such a vast amount of subtext and parallel ideas musically Shore was wise to set a few themes in the center, as longer musical identification and then use different derived ideas as supporting cast as it were. This near Wagnerian approach makes these scores feel quite different from the standard approach of an average film, where the theme and variation is usually presented in a clear cut way. Depth is one thing these scores or themes do not lack in my opinion. As to the individual idea of how well they represent the story or appeal to you is another matter.

[King Mark 3,624]

If Williams scored LotR we'd have full of his slowly building tracks that end grandiosely like the JP theme , Anakin's Betrayal/ Anakin's Dark Deeds or the War Horse bonding theme. Which are more awesome than anything in the Shore's LotR

[Incanus 5,713]

Why is there need to put down this music if you do not like it or find it interesting? That belittling attitude is rather tiring KM. We do not take anything away from JW or indeed from you by talking positively of Shore or his music for LotR.

[King Mark 3,624]

I thought you were all waiting for it. When is KM gonna show up and ruin this thread

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,713]

Whenever I hear "The Mordor Skip Beat", it makes me think of techno music.

DJ Gothmog gives you The Mordor Skip Beat (Da Edit Club Mix)! PUMP IT UP!

Doug Adams has a lot to answer for.

[KK 3,307]

Whenever I hear "The Mordor Skip Beat", it makes me think of techno music.

DJ Gothmog gives you The Mordor Skip Beat (Da Edit Club Mix)! PUMP IT UP!

So, when do we get the Dubstep version?

[Wojo 2,453]

Why is there need to put down this music if you do not like it or find it interesting? That belittling attitude is rather tiring KM. We do not take anything away from JW or indeed from you by talking positively of Shore or his music for LotR.

He's just jealous because his favorite composer never had a hand in releasing any of his scores in a lavish "complete recordings" box set. There of course have been pretenders (SW Anthology, SW:SE, TPM: UE, Indy box), and some labels have taken it upon themselves to make up for this (FSM Superman, LLR 1941, etc.). But this devotion to a composer not named John Williams is clearly an affront to the majesty of his Maestro, and thus all heavy fan "worship" of other composers must be squelched, so that Williams pays heed and offers him rewards of gloriously written personal scores in the next world.

[alicebrallice 134]

I listened to the CD of FotR in the autumn of 2001 and was impressed yet not entirely convinced. Only after watching the film I was slowly beginning to think that Shore had indeed succeeded in the near impossible task and during the next few years he proved to be the man for the job, more than that, a man with an admirable affinity for this world and layers of the story.

that's interesting!

are you gonna listen to the hobbit ost before seeing the film? I really don't want to but I doubt I'll be able to resist.

[Incanus 5,713]

I listened to the CD of FotR in the autumn of 2001 and was impressed yet not entirely convinced. Only after watching the film I was slowly beginning to think that Shore had indeed succeeded in the near impossible task and during the next few years he proved to be the man for the job, more than that, a man with an admirable affinity for this world and layers of the story.

that's interesting!

are you gonna listen to the hobbit ost before seeing the film? I really don't want to but I doubt I'll be able to resist.

Well if my first listen of FotR OST took place in a library on head phones between classes at uni because I didn't have time to go home to listen to it, do you think I can wait until the movie to listen to the Hobbit soundtrack?

The same happened with Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone btw.

[Wojo 2,453]

I remember reading Clemensen's review of FOTR before I got it and not being impressed with what I read and thinking that I didn't want it. And Santa brought me the album anyways and I was like, "yay, at least it wasn't socks..." But I listened to it anyways and loved it. Especially the loud tracks in the middle.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,713]

I still want to hear the Mordor Dubstep with bass cranked up to the max! That would be something!

[publicist 4,643]

Yeah, loud tracks are cool. The louder, the cooler.

Hans Zimmer heard you!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,713]

Some people express their love for this saga and music in rather odd ways, don' they.

[Faleel 5,326]

Isn't "The Land of Shadow" bassy enough?

[gkgyver 1,645]

It is in my top 5 tracks from ROTK. Awesome brass. Who is John Williams again?

[JoeinAR 1,949]

KM secretly has one of the LOTR scores hidden along with his pistol and the one bullet. He hopes he doesn't have to play it, but some nights when he's depress his mind starts to go there. So far he's kept it at bay by putting on the middle film of the Star Wars trillogy. He wouldn't want to taint some beautiful piece of John Williams music with that finale gunshot. I don't blame him.

John Williams saves lives folks,

[Brónach 1,301]

It is in my top 5 tracks from ROTK. Awesome brass. Who is John Williams again?

[Faleel 5,326]

John Williams could never get that sound.

Unless he fired Shawn Murphy.

[wanner251 17]

Incanus, thank you for answering my question. You always provide such tremendous insight. I think you are right about the idea that if the music doesn't speak to you, no matter how genius or terrible it is, you're not going to be able to love it.

About Howard Shore's music for LOTR, as far as iconography goes, he really accomplished that mission. The music for LOTR is as iconographic as anything out there, probably more so if you add in the reality distortion field of rabid fantasy fans. As a result, the music essentially has become much more than the sum of its parts. I don't feel that my thoughts on the music do anything to belittle it. I suppose I just wish that I could love it more. It definitely has its moments. Anything underscoring the elves, I think is pretty great. I do enjoy the otherworldly quality of some of the textures that Shore manages to create.

It's funny, I'm writing this trying to think of a specific reason why it doesn't work for me. I do understand Shore's approach to leitmotif, and I understand and hear the technical aspects that went into the construction of the score. However, such things don't really impress me, as I am a firm believer that music shouldn't take longer to explain than it does to play. I suppose, regarding the leitmotif idea, overall, the score seems (pardon the phrase) leitmotif heavy... Most of the motifs, though short, are well put together and capture the essence of what they are trying to convey, but only temporarily. I always walk away wishing there was more depth to them. Also, when a score is leitmotif heavy, it loses its sense of musical storytelling. When listening to the score on its own, I don't find myself following parts of the story at all because the motifs happen so often, that they convolute where we are in the story. Perhaps it would be better if the transitional elements of the score were more cohesive. I'm not really sure.

It's also possible that I am biased in the sense that I'm really not a huge fan of the "modern" film score. Perhaps this is even more true when it comes to fantasy scores. One of my favorite fantasy scores is Willow, written by James Horner, who, I think was a major driving force in ushering in the modern film score in the 90s, therefore somewhat killing off the classic romantic film score. I don't really care for his modern scores, other than maybe Braveheart and Ransom. However, those I like because they were dealing with something fairly new at the time. Back in the 80s, though, he could really write: Willow, Star Trek II, etc.... With the LOTR score being so modern, it just seems like the sandbox has been shrunk. I'm not sure if it makes any sense, but though the goal of the modern film score seems to be to push the limits of what we hear, it seems like it is required to follow an even stricter set of guidelines than something neo-romantic where the sky is the limit.

Either way, creating iconography with a more modern style is a difficult task, and Shore manages to do it somehow. I guess I just don't find it fulfilling in the end. It reminds me of how I feel about the scores for Harry Potter 4-8. Same idea.

[Brónach 1,301]

Also, when a score is leitmotif heavy, it loses its sense of musical storytelling. When listening to the score on its own, I don't find myself following parts of the story at all because the motifs happen so often, that they convolute where we are in the story. Perhaps it would be better if the transitional elements of the score were more cohesive. I'm not really sure.

Losing its sense of musical storytelling? In LOTR??!!

[Faleel 5,326]

Perhaps its because its written as operaish?

Or could it be the fact alot of the tracks are mixed low? perhaps if you normalized the action tracks in audacity, and bumped up waveforms a bit on the quieter tracks, you would enjoy it more? I find that volume has a play on whether or not I enjoy the music as much.

[wanner251 17]

Losing its sense of musical storytelling? In LOTR??!!

Yes. The motifs happen so often that you lose sense where you are in the story. I could play any track and think to myself, "oh that's where THIS happens," but then it's hobbits again, or orcs or whatever... And those motifs happen so often throughout the score that it becomes difficult to tell where you are. The cues become blurred. I'm not suggesting that this is ineffective in any way; it truly is effective. But instead of transporting me to the scene, it just sort of loses me in the world with no narrative, just characters. Trust me, I want to like it more, but the more I listen to it, the more it comes up short.

[Wojo 2,453]

Huh. As opposed to non-thematic underscore, which is instantly recognizable at any time and always transports you to the correct place in the story.

I'm surprised I didn't have such as profound a revelation earlier.

[Brónach 1,301]

I think the storytelling in these scores comes from the colour palette of the music more than from the leitmotivs. Action sections, horror sections. pastoral sections, ethereal sections and up to the massively tear jerking "end of the world" section at the climax.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Wojo 2,453]

But it's not bullshit. When I listen to The Empire Strikes Back, all I hear is The Imperial March. All the time. And I've become so saturated with it, I can't tell if our heroes are on Hoth or Dagobah or Endor or that planet with all the lava. I just don't know anymore. It's become so blurred.