Lincoln - Theatrical Trailer Discussion

[TheTennisBallKid 17]

The tracklist for the CD seems to indicate that it does end with his death. (See the title of the penultimate track)

[JohnWilliamsFTW 0]

The tracklist for the CD seems to indicate that it does end with his death. ("The Peterson House and Finale")

Don't spoil it for everyone!!!

[nightscape94 965]

Yet, witholding any mention of Lincoln's death would seem a strange omission.

It's one thing to allude to it, or show signs of portent, but seeing the assassination would be something altogether different, given what the main arch of the film seem to be about.

[Hlao-roo 389]

I would think they would at least show the iceberg.

[Marian Schedenig 8,191]

Oh, and Tolkien wrote an opera, of sorts. Just read the beginning of the Silmarillion.

That's not an opera. Rather a piece for a-cappella ensemble and solo baritone.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Now, you're just nitpicking!

[BTR1701 59]

God damn it I wish I could comment upon this but having read the entire script, which is one of the best I've ever read, I cannot say how it ends.

Why can't you say?

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Just to put things fuckingly straight.

The hobbit book 1st edition is not a proloque/prequel/prelude to LOTR.

BUT I MEAN THAT THE FILM, WITH ITS DELIBERATE CHANGES TO MATCH THE TRILOGY AND ADDITIONS FROM THE APPENDICES, AND CHRONOLOGICAL MAKING OF DATE, FITS PREFECTLY AND WITHOUT A DOUBT WITH THE DEFINITION OF FILM PREQUEL, and that is what it is.

BTW the hobbit revised edition has been marketed as a prelude to LOTR by some publishers for years...

Now case closed, Move along.

You're wrong, case closed. I do like the use of the nonword 'fuckingly' though.

[KK 3,307]

Lincoln First Draft script is here: http://www.mediafire...u417d7pmh033vzx

If you don't want to be spoiled, don't read. Or if you don't believe me and just want to see some of it, go ahead.

Wow, that's great! Won't read it yet though. And Chaac, you're not the only one who reads scripts. I just wouldn't read them on a computer. I'd wait until I can acquire a physical copy (that hopefully doesn't require me to print 300 pages).

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I've only read a handful of scripts. Pulp Fiction and Fargo are the first to spring to mind. I think Chaac sent me The Tree Of Life. I also got a few from the For Your Consideration sites. I have Django Unchained but I don't want to read it until I see the film.

[KK 3,307]

I would love to read script for something like The Tree of Life. I purchase screenplays/shooting scripts whenever I get the chance to. And I don't really like reading scripts for films I haven't seen yet.

[gkgyver 1,645]

The Hobbit is as much a prequel to LOTR as Casino Royale is to Dr. No.

[Simon R. 10]

War horse music is really good. BUT... there is too much. It's like Spielberg or Williams don't have the refined sense of where to place music.

Williams has been overscoring dramas for over a decade now.

At least it means more great music.

I agree it's great that we get more music to listen to, but what people probably don't realize that it is 99% Spielbergs decision where he wants music and how big/small he wants it. Afterall, it's very easy to just remove or not include music in a scene if Spielberg doesn't see it fit. So I think really we can blame Spielberg on the overscoring of a few scenes in his movies. Personally I really only have a handful of scenes where I think the music was completely misplaced, e..g there's a scene in A.I. in the beginning that baffles me in that regard. I admit I haven't seen War Horse yet but I have a feeling some scenes are overscored. But I would never blame Williams for that.

I think the music sounds very promising though. As for the movie, I don't know... I fear an "Amistad"-like court room scene coming up here - and that is not a good thing...

[Luke Skywalker 1,794]

I cant believe people do not see my point in differenciating the Hobbit film and the hobbit novel.

Oh Well, you can't reason with star wars fa...i mean LOTR fanboys.

So Lincoln, how is it going?

[gkgyver 1,645]

Prequels usually invent stuff and are written after the original. And while PJ and cohorts added a couple of things for their own entertainment, the rest of it existed before LotR was released. Prequels are often made for the sole purpose of telling a backstory, which leads to them trying too hard.

And I would like to add that sometimes I feel some people on JWfan are like Don Quixote. They are fighting non existent enemies, and the issue at hand can't be stupid or obvious enough that they won't find at least one other fool to support their imaginary fight.

[KK 3,307]

War horse music is really good. BUT... there is too much. It's like Spielberg or Williams don't have the refined sense of where to place music.

Williams has been overscoring dramas for over a decade now.

At least it means more great music.

To be honest, I don't think he's overscores dramas at all. War Horse is one of the very rare examples in my opinion, and only in the first act. Williams has taken his hand at subtlety many times over the decade with stuff like Memoirs of a Geisha or Catch Me if You Can.

[TownerFan 4,983]

I admit I haven't seen War Horse yet but I have a feeling some scenes are overscored. But I would never blame Williams for that.

In my very humble opinion, none of the scenes in War Horse are overscored. Sure, there's some pretty big music accompanying several scenes, but I never had the feeling of "this is too much". I found it absolutely in line with the film's aesthetic itself (good or bad, you be the judge). It's certainly music that harkens back to an older Hollywood scoring style, with lush themes played by a full symphony orchestra. And nowadays many people are just put off by such a stylistic choice and find it phoney or insincere. However Spielberg and Williams are champions of this kind of approach, especially in the movies that acknowledge very clearly a nostalgic, naive attachment to the good ol' days of Hollywood movies--like War Horse.

What really impresses me is that many people are ready to point the finger at Williams for "overscoring" the films for which he writes the music and don't realize that A LOT of other Hollywood composers/directors are doing just the same, if not worse. Recently I saw Scorsese's Hugo and I noticed that Shore accompanies the film in most of the scenes with busy, melodic music. But nobody stood up and slapped the composer for putting "too many notes" in the film. That's not to beat on Shore (the music is really lovely and fitting), but it's strange that film critics and part of the audience seem to have become allergic only when it comes to Williams. And what to say about Zimmer's constant drumming and droning during The Dark Knight Rises? The music is playing for 90% of the film's duration, even accompanying dialogue scenes--and it's also really LOUD! But I didn't read a thing in film reviews lamenting that Zimmer "overscored" the movie.

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

Maurizio, the voice of reason in the forum otherwise gone mad.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

Only popular composers get slammed for over scoring.

[Hlao-roo 389]

I don't think whether or not other film composers are targeted for criticism is terribly germane to whether or not Williams, with Spielberg, spots his assignments too expansively.

One isn't going to find too many direct references to "overscoring" in a mainstream film review because these reviews don't typically subject a film's technical aspects to that degree of scrutiny. Nonetheless, the suggestion that Zimmer is somehow accepted by the "establishment," while Williams is unfairly singled out for criticism, is a strange charge. A.O. Scott's review of Pearl Harbor calls Zimmer's music "tumescent" and quips that "the crashing of bombs and the whine of bullets at least pushes Hans Zimmer's oppressive score into the background." Variety takes a dim view of Zimmer's "unremitting" score for Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End, finding that it "at times overwhelms the dialogue." More recently, in her review of The Dark Knight Rises, Slate.com critic Dana Stevens laments the "maddeningly unrelenting percussive score by Hans Zimmer."

[Faleel 5,345]

Also, (on an internet site) Howard Shore was critisized as well for overscoring.

[King Mark 3,630]

I think one of the problems with Williams score is that they are generally not mixed loud enough for the last 15 years or so , which can CREATE the illusion that they are annoying to the picture.

Lucas Kendall said it for "Seven Years in Tibet" in which the score was mixed low and created an annoying "underdramatic" effect. Instead of feeling the music and the instruments, we only hear the melody faintly and it can be grating.

I think this was the problem with War Horse. Seriously the score for the first hour seemed to be coming from the front speakers only and sounded tinny. It's worse than having it really loud where you could hear all the nuances in the instruments. Williams larger than life music doesn't sound good at low volume.

In the Lincoln trailer the music sounds as it should, but I bet in the final mix it won;t be this way

[KK 3,307]

I admit I haven't seen War Horse yet but I have a feeling some scenes are overscored. But I would never blame Williams for that.

In my very humble opinion, none of the scenes in War Horse are overscored. Sure, there's some pretty big music accompanying several scenes, but I never had the feeling of "this is too much". I found it absolutely in line with the film's aesthetic itself (good or bad, you be the judge). It's certainly music that harkens back to an older Hollywood scoring style, with lush themes played by a full symphony orchestra. And nowadays many people are just put off by such a stylistic choice and find it phoney or insincere. However Spielberg and Williams are champions of this kind of approach, especially in the movies that acknowledge very clearly a nostalgic, naive attachment to the good ol' days of Hollywood movies--like War Horse.

What really impresses me is that many people are ready to point the finger at Williams for "overscoring" the films for which he writes the music and don't realize that A LOT of other Hollywood composers/directors are doing just the same, if not worse. Recently I saw Scorsese's Hugo and I noticed that Shore accompanies the film in most of the scenes with busy, melodic music. But nobody stood up and slapped the composer for putting "too many notes" in the film. That's not to beat on Shore (the music is really lovely and fitting), but it's strange that film critics and part of the audience seem to have become allergic only when it comes to Williams. And what to say about Zimmer's constant drumming and droning during The Dark Knight Rises? The music is playing for 90% of the film's duration, even accompanying dialogue scenes--and it's also really LOUD! But I didn't read a thing in film reviews lamenting that Zimmer "overscored" the movie.

Well said Maurizio! And I agree on all accounts. I really don't think Williams ever overscores the dramas he works on. And in War Horse, there was only one scene that I felt was almost overscored in a way. And that was the "Plowing" scene. It's a fantastic piece of music (my favourite cue), but the visuals certainly didn't live up to the heights of that specific track. I was surprised to find that that was ultimately what the scene ended up being considering I walked expecting grand vistas playing out for the music.

And you're very right about the fact that so many other composers are doing the same or a lot worse. The Dark Knight Rises was certainly one big cases of an overscored film. Sometimes I think Williams gets bashed over other composers in the mainstream because when they think of Williams, they only think of his big fanfare stuff.

[Hlao-roo 389]

And you're very right about the fact that so many other composers are doing the same or a lot worse. The Dark Knight Rises was certainly one big cases of an overscored film. Sometimes I think Williams gets bashed over other composers in the mainstream because when they think of Williams, they only think of his big fanfare stuff.

Once again, I don't think the "but other composers are doing it too!" is much of a defense.

My sense of War Horse is not that it is "overscored" in the sense of having quantitatively too much music but that it is at times, particularly early on, ostentatiously scored in the sense of having music that is overeager and quite at odds with what I feel the film has earned from a narrative standpoint, regardless of its aesthetic intentions.

I happen to think Saving Private Ryan is overscored in both senses, even though Williams and Spielberg did make a commendable decision not to score the battle sequences. Also, the erstwhile Chicago Reader critic Jonathan Rosenbaum cites Williams's "hokey" music as emblematic of the film's shortcomings -- so critics, depending on your point of view, are either knee-jerk anti-Williams, or are aware that film music can be bombastic even in the absence of fanfares.

I think one of the problems with Williams score is that they are generally not mixed loud enough for the last 15 years or so , which can CREATE the illusion that they are annoying to the picture.

Lucas Kendall said it for "Seven Years in Tibet" in which the score was mixed low and created an annoying "underdramatic" effect. Instead of feeling the music and the instruments, we only hear the melody faintly and it can be grating.

I think this was the problem with War Horse. Seriously the score for the first hour seemed to be coming from the front speakers only and sounded tinny. It's worse than having it really loud where you could hear all the nuances in the instruments. Williams larger than life music doesn't sound good at low volume.

This is an interesting point, actually.

[King Mark 3,630]

And in JW scores that were mixed properly (JAWS,Star Wars OT, Superman, Indiana Jones OT, E.T.), I've never read a review saying the music was annoying, and the films overscored. Recently, Memoirs of a Geisha was the only Williams film mixed properly , and the music wasn't slammed either

Inversly, Zimmer's music mixed at super loud level (The Dark Knight Rises) sounds shit because you can hear how shit the music is

[Muad'Dib 1,801]

[KK 3,307]

And you're very right about the fact that so many other composers are doing the same or a lot worse. The Dark Knight Rises was certainly one big cases of an overscored film. Sometimes I think Williams gets bashed over other composers in the mainstream because when they think of Williams, they only think of his big fanfare stuff.

Once again, I don't think the "but other composers are doing it too!" is much of a defense.

It wasn't meant to be a defense. Its just Williams seems to be hailed as the master of overscoring dramas when he's clearly not.

My sense of War Horse is not that it is "overscored" in the sense of having quantitatively too much music but that it is at times, particularly early on, ostentatiously scored in the sense of having music that is overeager and quite at odds with what I feel the film has earned from a narrative standpoint, regardless of its aesthetic intentions.

I see what you mean. Although to be honest, I believe the plowing scene seemed to have too much music on a quantitive level.

[Incanus 5,714]

Thank you Michael for posting that Google Play video!

Spielberg by his own words is making a movie about Lincoln as a man not as an icon, which in itself sounds promising, that their intention is to show the humane and not the deified status he has gotten over the years. Depicting only the last 4 months of his life will be an interesting perspective as they do not try to encompass, wisely I think, his entire life in one film but rather focus on a short period of importance and show the man and the statesman in this highly stressful and intense period of time.

[Hlao-roo 389]

The annoying thing is that anything short of presenting Lincoln as the devil incarnate will get Spielberg nothing but derision from critics -- just because he's Spielberg. "What? Spielberg thinks there's a glimmer of goodness in Lincoln? How pathetic, how infantile, how typically Spielbergian! Spielberg's two-dimensional view of human nature rears its ugly and naïve head again!"

[Incanus 5,714]

True, it might become a series of accusations of not taking this or that negative (read "interesting and vitally important to form even a barely adequate true image of Lincoln) aspect of his presidency and persona into account. As much as Williams is accused of oversentimental and big music, Spielberg will be accused of being overly sentimental by showing Lincoln's good aspects.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I saw or heard absolutely nothing that my aroused my interest. This is going to flop (outside the US).

It will do only decent business in the US.

[Incanus 5,714]

Hey perhaps Spielberg should have done something as controversial as our national broadcast company did as they funded a biopic about Mannerheim, a Finnish president, statesman and a military leader and one of our national heroes and cast in the role a Kenyan black actor and the movie was also filmed in Kenya. That would have been gutsy and most of all artistically brilliant!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Has Spielberg become the new Woody Allen?

[chuck 154]

Has Spielberg become the new Woody Allen?

How so?

[JamieC 13]

Or Steven Spielberg is invoking the spirit of his Hollywood heroes such as Victor Fleming , Michael Curtiz and , of course, John Ford who each made pictures very regularly (as they were contractually obliged to as studio employees).

[TownerFan 4,983]

My sense of War Horse is not that it is "overscored" in the sense of having quantitatively too much music but that it is at times, particularly early on, ostentatiously scored in the sense of having music that is overeager and quite at odds with what I feel the film has earned from a narrative standpoint, regardless of its aesthetic intentions.

I never had that sensation while watching the film, so this means we're talking about something open to different views. Surely it's music that "wants to be heard", but I think this is in line with Spielberg and Williams usual habits. They both love having much music and they love the classical symphonic approach.

I happen to think Saving Private Ryan is overscored in both senses, even though Williams and Spielberg did make a commendable decision not to score the battle sequences. Also, the erstwhile Chicago Reader critic Jonathan Rosenbaum cites Williams's "hokey" music as emblematic of the film's shortcomings -- so critics, depending on your point of view, are either knee-jerk anti-Williams, or are aware that film music can be bombastic even in the absence of fanfares.

Saving Private Ryan uses music mostly to enhance and communicate the sense of nobility and "righteousness" the film wants to convey. It uses a very straight language, with Americana overtones, providing a kind of historical framework for what we're seeing. I always saw Ryan music as quite detached from the film it is accompanying. But I agree sometimes it gives the feeling it's nothing more than a mere, albeit elegant, ornamentation.

I think one of the problems with Williams score is that they are generally not mixed loud enough for the last 15 years or so , which can CREATE the illusion that they are annoying to the picture.

Lucas Kendall said it for "Seven Years in Tibet" in which the score was mixed low and created an annoying "underdramatic" effect. Instead of feeling the music and the instruments, we only hear the melody faintly and it can be grating.

I think this was the problem with War Horse. Seriously the score for the first hour seemed to be coming from the front speakers only and sounded tinny. It's worse than having it really loud where you could hear all the nuances in the instruments. Williams larger than life music doesn't sound good at low volume.

This is an interesting point, actually.

While I agree several recent Williams' scores were treated poorly in their film mix, I don't think this has anything to do with film critics' reactions. It's clear that a lot of them have no more than a prejudice toward Williams and his aesthetic. My original post, in which I noticed the overall tendency of having a lot of music, wasn't provided as a mere excuse ("Hey, other composers do it as well!!"), but more as a symptom of this prejudice. I'm not defending Williams and Spielberg in blind manner. But I think they have a very clear and specific idea about the overall role of music in their films, a much more grounded and thought-out idea than generally credited. They both stick to their guns, even after almost 40 years of collaboration. If they do something wrong sometimes (as every person who does a creative job makes), it still is part of a process where they put all their efforts and thoughts. THIS is imho what elevates them from the generic Hollywood rest, where in most cases the music is treated just as a decoration tool or a mere sensorial trick to hype the excitement in the most superficial way.

[publicist 4,643]

Sometimes, as in SPR, the music underlines the worst directorial tendencies of the movie and JW never was someone to challenge Spielberg when he's playing it 'too safe' (which happens most frequently in Oscar-baiting movies like SPR and AMISTAD, less so in blockbusters like MR or WOTW). In case of WAR HORSE, the movie is so unsalvageable it doesn't matter if you lay on the music with a trowel early - the slushy syrup Spielberg pours over us in the last act could couldn't be sold with the most valiant musical approach, so...(for whatever strange reason, i enjoyed WH for its sumptuous photography and never took it serious enough to be affronted, but it is a DOA).

[TownerFan 4,983]

I enjoyed War Horse overall, its constant (and sometimes irritating, yes) show-off of uplifting, feel-good sentiments is a key component of the recipe so you either take it or leave it (in this sense, it's a close relative of Always, another Spielberg film often lambasted for its sentimentality).

What I found critical and problematic is the absence of a more coherent and developed writing in terms of character relationships. Albert is one of the most bi-dimensional and passive main characters ever seen in a Spielberg's film hence we never invest with conviction in his journey. His emotional relationship with Joey is taken too much as a given from the get-go. In this very sense, it's only left to Williams' music to "make us believe" in their bond and I think Williams really worked hard to make it so (he seems even more engaged than the director himself). But as much beautiful and gorgeous the music is, it's still not enough. I believe Spielberg's good faith in the story and he probably was convinced it was enough to take the book/stageplay structure and filming it with his usual command, but the script needed to be much more rethought and restructured to make it a really good movie.

[publicist 4,643]

It is really only worth it for Williams' loving ode to english music, although i quite enjoy the sentimental americana of the 'love' theme, too. It's certainly Spielberg's most misguided movie after HOOK and ALWAYS (not counting his educational Hallmark movies like AMISTAD, which at least have a serious core worth discussing).

[Joe Brausam 214]

Everytime I watch this trailer and hear the music I get more and more excited. It really sounds amazing - I hope that choir is on the album!

[gkgyver 1,645]

How different perceptions of two people are. The more I listen to the trailer, the less interested I am.

[Brónach 1,302]

I've come to really like the music in the trailer.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I'm excited about the film. of course I am still bothered that Steven and John don't know how to place the music in movies but like with The Man of Steel I'm hoping for the best.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Josh500 1,615]

The trailer and the music in it were okay, IMO, but nothing to write home about.

The music certainly sounds like classic Williams, but that's it. No really recognizable theme here, if you ask me... the way he heard in the War Horse trailer, which was 10 times better.

Still, I am withholding judgment until the release of the movie. One thing is certain, though: getting my hands on the new JW soundtrack is an event in itself, regardless of the quality of the music.

[Brónach 1,302]

It took me ages to warm up to the theme in the War Horse trailer. But the music in the Lincoln trailer does it for me.

[Josh500 1,615]

It took me ages to warm up to the theme in the War Horse trailer. But the music in the Lincoln trailer does it for me.

Really?

I had to watch the War Horse trailer only once to get excited about the music. I still get pleasurable shivers when I watch this...

[Richard Penna 3,679]

I loved the music in the War Horse trailer from the word go. This one really doesn't do much for me at all. To be honest, the film doesn't really look that interesting either, but that's usually what happens with oscar bait.

[Josh500 1,615]

I loved the music in the War Horse trailer from the word go. This one really doesn't do much for me at all. To be honest, the film doesn't really look that interesting either, but that's usually what happens with oscar bait.

Yeah, I agree.

Like it's been mentioned here, a bit too Amistad-like... not that Amistad's a bad movie, but these types of movies just can't compare with Indy, Tintin, or even War Horse.

But am I gonna watch Lincoln? Hell yeah.

[Brónach 1,302]

It took me ages to warm up to the theme in the War Horse trailer. But the music in the Lincoln trailer does it for me.

Really?

I had to watch the War Horse trailer only once to get excited about the music. I still get pleasurable shivers when I watch this...

[media=]

For a long time I felt theme built up to something great and then deflated.

Now it's a score I enjoy.