At what point did Williams scores start being overcomposed and how do we feel about this?

[wanner251 17]

Seriously, would you people really just as much like to listen to the Jungle Chase as to the Desert Chase?

To me, one of them is an epic piece of adventure, the other a cluttered piece of grandiose chaos.

Hmmm... perhaps we should compare the scenes themselves without the music. Desert Chase is a well-orchestrated action sequence. Jungle Chase is a bit of sensory overload.

[gkgyver 1,645]

So ...? Why would we start comparing scenes without music when discussing the music?

[Incanus 5,714]

Seriously, would you people really just as much like to listen to the Jungle Chase as to the Desert Chase?

To me, one of them is an epic piece of adventure, the other a cluttered piece of grandiose chaos.

You are obviously listening to a different Jungle Chase than I am.

[A24 4,331]

More and more people are feeling dissatified with Spielberg and Williams. Perhaps it's time for both of them to retire so we fans can keep the memory intact?

Alex

[wanner251 17]

So ...? Why would we start comparing scenes without music when discussing the music?

Because, in the world of film scoring, scenes have this odd tendency to dictate what the music is going to be.... I know... strange...

Has anyone thought about whether recording technique has anything to do with the feelings you guys have? I mean, analog vs digital. Analog can definitely be more edgy because of things like "riding the gain", as opposed to the smooth, rounded edges of digital, due to things like limiters. Would that make it seem subdued or less exciting? I'm sure that could be the case when comparing the original Star Wars movies with the prequels...

[Datameister 2,042]

I agree that Williams' older recording techniques lent themselves to a rather edgier sound. Alos, the performances themselves tended to be a little rougher and more energetic. It's a fun thought experiment to try to imagine modern Williams being played by, say, the LSO in the very early 80s. You kind of have to listen to pieces that he wrote back then and has since re-recorded (like the Star Wars main title) and then extrapolate backwards. In my imagination, the music definitely benefits from that treatment.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

More and more people are feeling dissatified with Spielberg and Williams. Perhaps it's time for both of them to retire so we fans can keep the memory intact?

Perhaps it's time for fans to retire?

[chuck 154]

More and more people are feeling dissatified with Spielberg and Williams. Perhaps it's time for both of them to retire so we fans can keep the memory intact?

Perhaps it's time for fans to retire?

So that them Spielberg & Williams can keep the memory intact?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Exactly.

[A24 4,331]

Lincoln: Out of the touch with modern audiences.

Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter: Right on, man!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Exactly, that's what we want!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[TheHouseholdCat 4]

Williams music is still fine

Probably less surprising because we already know so much. He can't re-invent himself all the time.

Has anyone thought about whether recording technique has anything to do with the feelings you guys have? I mean, analog vs digital. Analog can definitely be more edgy because of things like "riding the gain", as opposed to the smooth, rounded edges of digital, due to things like limiters. Would that make it seem subdued or less exciting? I'm sure that could be the case when comparing the original Star Wars movies with the prequels...

Yeah, I guess that's a big part of it, too. That's what bothers me about modern pop, too. It lacks edge. Because these days it's easier.

[Brónach 1,302]

John William's current styles are utterly incredible. I love listening to War Horse, Tintin, Munich, Memoirs of a Geisha. Some chunks of Crystal Skull also contain that great Williams, and I've fallen in love with the snippet in the Lincoln trailer.

No composer connects with me in the way JW has done and keeps doing.

While I think some of his greater works lie in the past, his current work is the natural, progressive development of it and from that perspective I find it fascinating. I don't see any particular point in time where his music is suddenly radically different.

[KK 3,307]

Well said. To expect a composer to keep to a singular style for the remainder of his career is a bit of naive thinking, especially when looking at a career as massive as Williams'. And the progression to his more dense writing is quite natural. The development in his writing shows a clear sense of maturation that I appreciate. It's apparent in his emotional stuff and its there in his action material too. Although, I can see why people can't warm up to it. But if its really the old JW you want, then just listen to his classics. No one's robbing that away from you. His new material is still great stuff. Cues like Anderton's Great Escape are killer action cues that just can't be matched by most composers working out there. And I personally like Jungle Chase and think Indy 4 is underrated.

Williams is still the best composer in the industry and he's still my favourite. I wouldn't ask him to change anything about what he's doing, except for maybe an increase in his film score output.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Lincoln: Out of the touch with modern audiences.

Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter: Right on, man!

Blade Runner: Out of the touch with modern audiences.

Blade Runner 2: Right on, man!

[SF1_freeze 131]

There is nothing overcomposed in Williams recent scores...

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Since we have one for Spielberg, you know it was coming for Williams, too!

There was a clear cut somewhere in the 90s that saw Williams change his style, particulary in the action/adventure category, and use the orchestra in a more layered, frantic way to stress rhythm more than anything else.

Since half his scores during this era are for dramas or comedies without action cues... is this quiestion truly fair?

Anyway, i love Williams modern action writting as much as the old one, if not more in some instances

[Faleel 5,346]

And I personally like Jungle Chase and think Indy 4 is Underrated.

Fixed!

[gkgyver 1,645]

Since we have one for Spielberg, you know it was coming for Williams, too!

There was a clear cut somewhere in the 90s that saw Williams change his style, particulary in the action/adventure category, and use the orchestra in a more layered, frantic way to stress rhythm more than anything else.

Since half his scores during this era are for dramas or comedies without action cues... is this quiestion truly fair?

And in his golden years, the ratio was radically different?

And what are you saying? That Williams deliberately neglects the action writing and focuses on drama?

Action-heavy films from Williams in the past 13 years:

- Phantom Menace

- Philosophers Stone

- Attack Of The Clones

- Chamber Of Secrets

- Prisoner Of Azkaban

- Revenge Of The Sith

- War Of The Worlds

- Kingdom Of The Crystal Skull

- Tintin

Dramatic scores in that period:

- The Patriot

- AI

- Catch Me If You Can

- Terminal

- Memoirs Of A Geisha

- Munich

- War Horse

As you can see, since Episode I, his scores tend towards the action/adventure side.

[KK 3,307]

And I personally like Jungle Chase and think Indy 4 is Underrated.

Fixed!

That's exactly what I meant to type...have no idea why I wrote the opposite

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Since we have one for Spielberg, you know it was coming for Williams, too!

There was a clear cut somewhere in the 90s that saw Williams change his style, particulary in the action/adventure category, and use the orchestra in a more layered, frantic way to stress rhythm more than anything else.

Since half his scores during this era are for dramas or comedies without action cues... is this quiestion truly fair?

And in his golden years, the ratio was radically different?

And what are you saying? That Williams deliberately neglects the action writing and focuses on drama?

Action-heavy films from Williams in the past 13 years:

- Phantom Menace

- Philosophers Stone

- Attack Of The Clones

- Chamber Of Secrets

- Prisoner Of Azkaban

- Revenge Of The Sith

- War Of The Worlds

- Kingdom Of The Crystal Skull

- Tintin

Dramatic scores in that period:

- The Patriot

- AI

- Catch Me If You Can

- Terminal

- Memoirs Of A Geisha

- Munich

- War Horse

As you can see, since Episode I, his scores tend towards the action/adventure side.

you deliberately put out all the 90's

Home Alone

Hook

Home Alone 2

Far and Away

Jurassic Park

The Lost World

vs

Stanley and Iris

Presumed innocent

JFK

Schindler's list

Sabrina

Nixon

Sleepers

Rosewwod

Seven years in the Tibet

Amistad

Saving Private Ryan

Stepmon

Angelas Ashes

IT RADICALLY changes, doesn't it?

And since your initial post states this:

There was a clear cut somewhere in the 90s that saw Williams change his style

I think it is fairer to start the 90's in 1990 and not in 1999. Right?

What i'm saing is that you are saying williams overcomposes, but since half or more of his output is undercomposed dramas, its unfair, and it's clear your POW is byased towards action cues, which anyways are great.

Jungle chase is mindblowing for its awesomeness. And part of it is it's close relation to old action writting (late 80's-early 90's)

[Pieter Boelen 740]

As you can see, since Episode I, his scores tend towards the action/adventure side.

Eeeeexcellent. Here's to hoping he keeps that up! Good thing I only really became a Williams fan AFTER the 90s.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

Chamber of Secrets, "Dueling the Basillisk". JW made this too "epic". It's a great action piece but it could have really gone without the choir and it's a little bit too swashbuckley for everything that came before it in the movie.

[Sandor 797]

More and more people are feeling dissatified with Spielberg and Williams. Perhaps it's time for both of them to retire so we fans can keep the memory intact?

Alex

I seriously think some of these 'fans' you're talking about should 'retire' and move on. Not for me; for themselves. Why continue to invest so much time and energy in something you've started to hate...? It's puzzling to me. Really.

Used to be a fan of 24. After season 3 I realized the formula wasn't working for me anymore. Guess what? I moved on. Not for the die-hard 24 fans still posting, but simply for myself. Why waste time continuing to spend energy on a series I simply didn't like anymore?

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

Exactly what Roald says. I've been asking this for several months here.

[SF1_freeze 131]

I agree with Roald and hornist. If the only thing these so called fans can do is being negative about the things we love on this board it's time for them to move on.

This is happening for quite some time now and always by the same few negative people and it's seriously annoying on a jwfan (!) board.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Just picture it. This place with no one but Sf1_freeze, hornist, Roald, and King Mark.

Paradise.

No thanks. I like this place with its diverse range of interests over the course of John Williams career. I dislike most of John Williams' latest output, but I value the opinion of those who do like it, and to some extent their passion and excitement for John's modern output makes me value his body of work even more, even though I personally don't have a taste preference for it.

I like being able to point to any 5 or 10 year stretch of John's career and seeing so many differing opinions on it. I enjoy being challenged and made to think about and defend my tastes.

So screw you and your narrow minded "people who disagree should leave" mentality.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Really, sometimes i feel like i do not exist here...

Is my contribution here so dismiss-able?

[Sandor 797]

For the record: I don't wish to see anyone leave. It's just mindnumbing to me. Why continue to put so much time into something you outgrew? Something you've started to hate?

I'm SO glad I'm no longer a part of the 24 forum. I started to dislike the formula and it only felt natural for me to move on and stop wasting my time and energy on that series.

I would feel like such a f*ckin, pathetic troll if I was still there telling the fans how bad the later seasons were and how good season 2 was.

If I would feel the same way about John Williams I wouldn't want to come back here every day. Not for those who still love his music, but simply for myself.

No thanks. I like this place with its diverse range of interests over the course of John Williams career. I dislike most of John Williams' latest output, but I value the opinion of those who do like it.

Yeah right...

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Really, sometimes i feel like i do not exist here...

Is my contribution here so dismiss-able?

I like you too much to throw you under the bus with those goons, even though I know you like new John Williams.

No thanks. I like this place with its diverse range of interests over the course of John Williams career. I dislike most of John Williams' latest output, but I value the opinion of those who do like it.

Yeah right...

I'm sure it's a foreign concept to you. You've already made it clear you run away at the first sign of differing opinions.

[Sandor 797]

Really, sometimes i feel like i do not exist here...

Is my contribution here so dismiss-able?

I like you too much to throw you under the bus with those goons, even though I know you like new John Williams.

No thanks. I like this place with its diverse range of interests over the course of John Williams career. I dislike most of John Williams' latest output, but I value the opinion of those who do like it.

Yeah right...

I'm sure it's a foreign concept to you. You've already made it clear you run away at the first sign of differing opinions.

Yeah, I'm the one with a history of running away....

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Really, sometimes i feel like i do not exist here...

Is my contribution here so dismiss-able?

I like you too much to throw you under the bus with those goons, even though I know you like new John Williams.

Oh, thanks.

But they are not goons, they (we) are enthusiasts.

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

I dislike most of John Williams' latest output

Sorry to say his latest output is just first class, the problem is in your head.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Really, sometimes i feel like i do not exist here...

Is my contribution here so dismiss-able?

I like you too much to throw you under the bus with those goons, even though I know you like new John Williams.

No thanks. I like this place with its diverse range of interests over the course of John Williams career. I dislike most of John Williams' latest output, but I value the opinion of those who do like it.

Yeah right...

I'm sure it's a foreign concept to you. You've already made it clear you run away at the first sign of differing opinions.

Yeah, I'm the one with a history of running away....

If you are referring to my leave, I refused to contribute because of administrative issues, not because someone disagreed with my tastes in arts. So...not exactly the same. But it was a good try.

The fact of the matter is the modern vs. classic Williams debate has existed since John Williams has been writing music and evolving. And I can guarantee that not a single person who finds a period of John Williams' less stellar than the other considers themselves anything other a fan of John Williams.

The debate on this issue is between people who agree that John Williams is one of the best damned composers. The two sides, I can guarantee believe his music is cream of the crop. Therefore the debate between them is about the best of the best. They are true John Williams fans, with different tastes.

However...

A certain minority of people here have in their head that it's all or nothing. That if you think Star Wars is better than Minority Report, clearly you are a John Williams hating troll.

And we all know...only Sith and idiots deal in absolutes.

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

Just picture it. This place with no one but Sf1_freeze, hornist, Roald, and King Mark.

Wow. A fan site where the fans like their idol.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Just picture it. This place with no one but Sf1_freeze, hornist, Roald, and King Mark.

Wow. A fan site where the fans like their idol.

Case in point. Note how he can't fathom the idea that you can idolize and love an overarching entity while still having a range of opinions on its constituent elements.

I mean really how could anyone look forward to the next John Williams score if he didn't like the last one or two! If you are disappointed once, you should stop being a fan!

[Sandor 797]

If you are referring to my leave, I refused to contribute because of administrative issues, not because someone disagreed with my tastes in arts. So...not exactly the same.

Ah, that's pretty lame. You know it, I know it.

A certain minority of people here have in their head that it's all or nothing. That if you think Star Wars is better than Minority Report, clearly you are a John Williams hating troll.

Really Bluhm: WHO on this board reasons like that?! You have to paint such absurd examples in order to get your point across. Also pretty lame. Hope you won't blame me for 'running away' from this thread now.

[Hlao-roo 389]

Everyone at this board sucks and should die now.

Thanks,

Alan

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Minority Report is arguably one of his best scores.

Lincoln is pretty overcomposed.

[Hlao-roo 389]

Minority Report is arguably one of his best scores.

Lincoln is pretty overcomposed.

You and your opinion suck. Go die now.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Minority Report is at least a top-20 JW score.

All the billboards for Lincoln I'm seeing should read "Sappy, Sentimental, Saccharine, Overcomposed Music by John Williams".

[Hlao-roo 389]

Minority Report is at least a top-20 JW score.

All the billboards for Lincoln I'm seeing should read "Sappy, Sentimental, Saccharine, Overcomposed Music by John Williams".

You're not dying. Why not? Don't you realize how pathetic you are?

[crocodile 8,006]

Would be funny to see "Music Overcomposed and Underconducted by John Williams" on a CD.

Karol

[Hlao-roo 389]

Would be funny to see "Music Overcomposed and Underconducted by John Williams" on a CD.

Karol

Haha, very funny. Go f--k yourself.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Welp, looks like we are seeing the birth of a new, darker, edgier, less overcomposed Hla-roo here.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

how can you overcompose a 2 hour film if the said film only has around 30-40 minutes of music?

And not a single bombastic action cue....

[Hlao-roo 389]

Welp, looks like we are seeing the birth of a new, darker, edgier, less overcomposed Hla-roo here.

So...are you alienated yet? It's really important that I do that.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

I feel so cold and alone.

[Hlao-roo 389]

I feel so cold and alone.

Excellent. I did it so efficiently, too. I'm so awesome. Hopefully everyone else will follow my lead!