At what point did we start to consider Williams as a bad composer and how do we feel about it?

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I'm not talking about themes, dude, nor am I implying what you're accusing me of. My proof? The fact that I'm telling you! Stop babbling about genres.

[KK 3,307]

Star Wars ties into the exactly same melodic structure as Superman. I know people who constantly would confuse the Superman March and the Star Wars main title. Is anyone one of those uninspired or the same? (and PLEASE don't mention King's Row, it only shares a few notes in between)

It's of course about the genres. Home Alone, Hook and Harry Potter share the genre of magical christmas kid movie / magical fantasy movie.

Think about it, just using a similar melodic structure means nothing. Else all the Wagnerian scoring would be the same... all have the love theme, the main theme, the villains theme,...

AOTC is indeed very underrated... especially its action scoring

Again, it has nothing to do with genres. As great as the themes in Sorcerer's Stone are (them being bloody brilliant and all), many of them are extensions of the ideas explored in Hook and Home Alone. That's nothing like Superman and Star Wars (which shares a major fifth interval at best).

Did you honestly think that Koray would draw comparisons between Harry Potter and Home Alone because of a single minute of Christmas music?

He was referring to the fact that the thematic ideas and musical constructs (and that doesn't refer to format) in the first Potter scores are somewhat derived from past ideas which is true. Heck listen to Hedwig's Theme and then Hook.

[media=]

2:29 and in earlier bits too

Same theme? Not at all. Similar musical constructs? Yes.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

In response to OP, I think it was about 1975, certainly.

[SF1_freeze 131]

Again, it has nothing to do with genres. As great as the themes in Sorcerer's Stone are (them being bloody brilliant and all), many of them are extensions of the ideas explored in Hook and Home Alone. That's nothing like Superman and Star Wars (which shares a major fifth interval at best).

Did you honestly think that Koray would draw comparisons between Harry Potter and Home Alone because of a single minute of Christmas music?

He was referring to the fact that the thematic ideas and musical constructs (and that doesn't refer to format) in the first Potter scores are somewhat derived from past ideas which is true. Heck listen to Hedwig's Theme and then Hook.

Same theme? Not at all. Similar musical constructs? Yes.

Then we have to agree to disagree because i don't see your point at all!

If i followed your line fo argumentation then every music style who uses similar melodic/chord progressions would be derived from work before while still being unoriginal. It of course depends on the genre and the style used within the genre. An adventure/space opera score will always rely on certain fanfaric musical constructs.

You even see this in the adventure/action scene of Minority Report. When Anderton departs the car factory you hear a fanfare similar to many many other Williams fanfares like all Starwars scores, Far and Away, Lost World,... too much to count here. Is it derived from all the other scores? NO, because if you see it that way then every genre with its predominant style would have to be regarded unoriginal and derived from an older score in the same genre by that composer which of course is completely stupid.

You see it of course has to do with the genre cause every genre is scored predominantly with specific styles of musical writing (ergo Harry Potter magical/children movie shares melodic progressions with the children/magical/fantasy movie Hook). This is the way good film scoring works but has nothing to do with originality and creativity.

Look at the Starwars scores, each of them uses a similar style of scoring in the same genre but they still remain original on the highest creative level!

[gkgyver 1,645]

I am sorry, I think SS is just a retread of Hook, it even has the "celtic" "source" music in between (Presenting The Hook vs. WhateverTheCuesAreNamedInSS)

Again, pls stop to judge scores and their originality on other scores composed years ago in the same genre by the same composer!

This makes no sense in a serious discussion!

Then what exactly should we base our judgement on?Sorry to say, but to say that we are not allowed to draw parallels between two scores by the same composer is uttery moronic.Should we compare it to other composers? Then I am sure you'll say it makes no sense because it is two different musical voices.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Again, it has nothing to do with genres. As great as the themes in Sorcerer's Stone are (them being bloody brilliant and all), many of them are extensions of the ideas explored in Hook and Home Alone. That's nothing like Superman and Star Wars (which shares a major fifth interval at best).

Did you honestly think that Koray would draw comparisons between Harry Potter and Home Alone because of a single minute of Christmas music?

He was referring to the fact that the thematic ideas and musical constructs (and that doesn't refer to format) in the first Potter scores are somewhat derived from past ideas which is true. Heck listen to Hedwig's Theme and then Hook.

Same theme? Not at all. Similar musical constructs? Yes.

Then we have to agree to disagree because i don't see your point at all!

If i followed your line fo argumentation then every music style who uses similar melodic/chord progressions would be derived from work before while still being unoriginal. It of course depends on the genre and the style used within the genre. An adventure/space opera score will always rely on certain fanfaric musical constructs.

You even see this in the adventure/action scene of Minority Report. When Anderton departs the car factory you hear a fanfare similar to many many other Williams fanfares like all Starwars scores, Far and Away, Lost World,... too much to count here. Is it derived from all the other scores? NO, because if you see it that way then every genre with its predominant style would have to be regarded unoriginal and derived from an older score in the same genre by that composer which of course is completely stupid.

You see it of course has to do with the genre cause every genre is scored predominantly with specific styles of musical writing (ergo Harry Potter magical/children movie shares melodic progressions with the children/magical/fantasy movie Hook). This is the way good film scoring works but has nothing to do with originality and creativity.

Look at the Starwars scores, each of them uses a similar style of scoring in the same genre but they still remain original on the highest creative level!

Are you serious? See you keep going on about genres, so I'll use it in my argument. The reason why JW is lackluster is because he keeps using the same ideas for the same genre. That's exactly what bad film scoring is. Who says adventure/space opera (two completely different genres, by the way) have to have fanfares? Blade Runner doesn't have a fanfare. Does that mean it's not great film scoring? Your idea that each genre has to have similar musical writing tendencies is the definition of unoriginal.

As for the Star Wars films having similar styles of scoring... uh, no shit. It's the same franchise!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Wow, Koray is getting in Super Saiyan mode. That should be interesting...

[Salacius 7]

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[Koray Savas 2,251]

I never called him a bad composer, he's one of my favorites after all, and his 00s scores include my favorites from him.

[Wojo 2,453]

Koray, you don't have to call John Williams a bad composer. It's automatically derived from Rule 19.

17 - If a member fails to comply with one or more of these rules repeatedly, they will not be able to post in the future.

18 - These rules & guidelines may be amended at any time.

19 - "I like John Williams, but I also like somebody else just as much, and maybe sometimes just a bit more, for certain scores and/or genres." = "John Williams is a bad composer."

I couldn't make that up.

[SF1_freeze 131]

I am sorry, I think SS is just a retread of Hook, it even has the "celtic" "source" music in between (Presenting The Hook vs. WhateverTheCuesAreNamedInSS)

Again, pls stop to judge scores and their originality on other scores composed years ago in the same genre by the same composer!

This makes no sense in a serious discussion!

Then what exactly should we base our judgement on?Sorry to say, but to say that we are not allowed to draw parallels between two scores by the same composer is uttery moronic.Should we compare it to other composers? Then I am sure you'll say it makes no sense because it is two different musical voices.

I only talked about how stupid it is to judge the originality of a score on previous scores of the same genre and same composer. That means i consider opinions that say "This score is not original because it shares a similar melodic structure and style with another of the composers scores" completely stupid and narrowminded!

Of course we can compare scores of the same genre and style but we shouldnt judge them negative just because they share the style! This shouldnt even be a criteria in a review of a score. If themes and melodies are copied across different franchises thats another thing which can be considered pretty negative (like LC's "No Ticket" cue was used in Harry Potter 2 as Gilderoy Lockhard's theme -> This is uninspired and unoriginal).

[Salacius 7]

.

[publicist 4,643]

You see it of course has to do with the genre cause every genre is scored predominantly with specific styles of musical writing (ergo Harry Potter magical/children movie shares melodic progressions with the children/magical/fantasy movie Hook). This is the way good film scoring works but has nothing to do with originality and creativity.

James Horner wants to buy this man a drink.

[SF1_freeze 131]

You see it of course has to do with the genre cause every genre is scored predominantly with specific styles of musical writing (ergo Harry Potter magical/children movie shares melodic progressions with the children/magical/fantasy movie Hook). This is the way good film scoring works but has nothing to do with originality and creativity.

James Horner wants to buy this man a drink.

Great constructive posting, nice arguments and participation of this discussion... if you try hard enough you may even understand what i am trying to say (still you have to read my other postings too and not take a paragraph out of context).

[JoeinAR 1,949]

John Williams is the greatest living composer. John Williams is the greatest film composer alive or dead.

Bad....no

[Pieter Boelen 740]

While I find most newer John Williams scores to be not as engaging as the old ones, he has yet to write a fantasy/adventure style score (my favourite genre)

that doesn't contain absolutely excellent parts with a lot of enjoyable stuff around it. There may be scores that are less original than others, but the end result is rarely not excellent.

I don't have the musical savvy to determine if Harry Potter is close in style to Hook and Home Alone, but to me,

they're all different scores with a lot to enjoy and I very much appreciate having them ALL.

And Harry Potter is absolutely eeeexcellent, so whether it's entirely original or not... I DON'T CARE!

I've been working on a compilation of John Williams concert suites recently and that only increased my amazement with his works.

Some of it may sound somewhat alike, but if you consider the incredible volume of work he has done at the same pretty consistent quality, I can't help but wonder how he manages it.

The above being said, I wouldn't mind if he'd go back a bit to his style of old. I understand if he doesn't do that because "been there, done that", but it WOULD be nice.

[publicist 4,643]

You see it of course has to do with the genre cause every genre is scored predominantly with specific styles of musical writing (ergo Harry Potter magical/children movie shares melodic progressions with the children/magical/fantasy movie Hook). This is the way good film scoring works but has nothing to do with originality and creativity.

James Horner wants to buy this man a drink.

Great constructive posting, nice arguments and participation of this discussion... if you try hard enough you may even understand what i am trying to say (still you have to read my other postings too and not take a paragraph out of context).

Start writing something that warrants any kind of discussion - the above isn't it.

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

Sorry KK but I don't think it is not enough for a case, if two cues are both in minor and using similar sounding instruments.

For me Hook and Sorcerer's Stone are totally different.

[Salacius 7]

.

[SF1_freeze 131]

You see it of course has to do with the genre cause every genre is scored predominantly with specific styles of musical writing (ergo Harry Potter magical/children movie shares melodic progressions with the children/magical/fantasy movie Hook). This is the way good film scoring works but has nothing to do with originality and creativity.

James Horner wants to buy this man a drink.

Great constructive posting, nice arguments and participation of this discussion... if you try hard enough you may even understand what i am trying to say (still you have to read my other postings too and not take a paragraph out of context).

Start writing something that warrants any kind of discussion - the above isn't it.

If you disagree with an opinion you just stop and dismiss the other person as not being warranted of a discussion? You probably won't have lots of discussions then. Why are you even on the board if you don't discuss different opinions? The purpose of a board is to discuss and share opinions not dismiss them with a short insulting sentence.

I made an effort to explain my point of few in more than five posts containing ten times the text that you had to offer on this issue which only consisted of an insulting, childish quote about James Horner. In the next post you continued to insult all that i had written in this thread. What the hell is wrong with you?

[wanner251 17]

Sorry KK but I don't think it is not enough for a case, if two cues are both in minor and using similar sounding instruments.

For me Hook and Sorcerer's Stone are totally different.

THIS...

They are totally different. The only real similarity is that they both have a magical quality. John Williams writes for the film what fits the best. He does not actively seek out to write extensions of ideas from one film for another totally unrelated film with a totally unrelated story. It doesn't work that way. However, magical in his mind is something that he seems to have a clear idea for. That texture is going to be similar. His thematic material comes down to what works dramatically. His goal is inevitability, which he accomplishes about 98% of the time.

[SF1_freeze 131]

Sorry KK but I don't think it is not enough for a case, if two cues are both in minor and using similar sounding instruments.

For me Hook and Sorcerer's Stone are totally different.

THIS...

They are totally different. The only real similarity is that they both have a magical quality. John Williams writes for the film what fits the best. He does not actively seek out to write extensions of ideas from one film for another totally unrelated film with a totally unrelated story. It doesn't work that way. However, magical in his mind is something that he seems to have a clear idea for. That texture is going to be similar. His thematic material comes down to what works dramatically. His goal is inevitability, which he accomplishes about 98% of the time.

Absolutely agreed

[wanner251 17]

YAY, it's nice to be on the same page with people here. On another thread, I was starting to feel a bit blacklisted for being over-opinionated...

[publicist 4,643]

I made an effort to explain my point of few in more than five posts containing ten times the text that you had to offer on this issue which only consisted of an insulting, childish quote about James Horner. In the next post you continued to insult all that i had written in this thread. What the hell is wrong with you?

As long as we have guys like you, who at least provide 'ten times the text' even if they don't have much to say, quantity is guaranteed. Your brilliant insights usually don't contain anything more than knee-jerk reactions to others who don't share your particular point of view...of course those relish in, i may quote your humble self, 'absolutely childish and unprofessional bashing', while you get away with hogwash like how rather derivative Williams scores can't be anything but because they are tied to a 'genre'. It's not like you haven't earned the right the get ridiculed once in a while.

[gkgyver 1,645]

You see it of course has to do with the genre cause every genre is scored predominantly with specific styles of musical writing (ergo Harry Potter magical/children movie shares melodic progressions with the children/magical/fantasy movie Hook). This is the way good film scoring works but has nothing to do with originality and creativity.

James Horner wants to buy this man a drink.

And Hans Zimmer would surely spring for dinner and a hooker.

So, sharing melodic progressions has nothing to do with originality? Wow ...

[KK 3,307]

Sorry KK but I don't think it is not enough for a case, if two cues are both in minor and using similar sounding instruments.

For me Hook and Sorcerer's Stone are totally different.

THIS...

They are totally different. The only real similarity is that they both have a magical quality. John Williams writes for the film what fits the best. He does not actively seek out to write extensions of ideas from one film for another totally unrelated film with a totally unrelated story. It doesn't work that way. However, magical in his mind is something that he seems to have a clear idea for. That texture is going to be similar. His thematic material comes down to what works dramatically. His goal is inevitability, which he accomplishes about 98% of the time.

I never said he actively sought out to write extensions of past musical ideas. Of course the maestro doesn't write like that. Few composers do. Sometimes in the attempt to write what best befits the film, characteristic traits of past ideas show up. It's the nature of things.

And do you guys honestly not hear the similarities in the clips. Its not just that they're minor! The pirate theme and Hedwig's theme commence with a similar musical phrase. The ultimate effect and atmosphere is entirely different, but constructs are similar.

Again, I'm not calling SS a rehash of past ideas. And I think its an absolutely brilliant score. But it has some connections to past works.

[wanner251 17]

I never said he actively sought out to write extensions of past musical ideas. Of course the maestro doesn't write like that. Few composers do. Sometimes in the attempt to write what best befits the film, characteristic traits of past ideas show up. It's the nature of things.

And do you guys honestly not hear the similarities in the clips. Its not just that they're minor! The pirate theme and Hedwig's theme commence with a similar musical phrase. The ultimate effect and atmosphere is entirely different, but constructs are similar.

Again, I'm not calling SS a rehash of past ideas. And I think its an absolutely brilliant score. But it has some connections to past works.

The constructs are definitely similar, but I believe it has much more to do with the dramatic content, than actual musical construct. Therefore, I don't find there to be any conscious musical connections to past works at all. Just because things sounds similar, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are related in any way. Again, the goal is inevitability. This film, that film, in most incidents, we have 12 notes to choose from. Whether it's Hedwig's Theme, or the main theme to Hook, they are both inevitable, and each exists on its own. Because of the dramatic content, they are in no way related to each other. If they sound alike, it can only be by coincidence. Williams continues to surprise and delight us with his versatility, so if two scores or themes sound similar, it is because it is the best way to convey the character, or mood, or setting, not because our Maestro is somehow limited in his imagination. It either works, or it doesn't.

[publicist 4,643]

If they sound alike, it can only be by coincidence. Williams continues to surprise and delight us with his versatility, so if two scores or themes sound similar, it is because it is the best way to convey the character, or mood, or setting, not because our Maestro is somehow limited in his imagination. It either works, or it doesn't.

Thank god Williams forgot those mantras when scoring HARRY POTTER III.