Wandering Leitmotifs - the reasoning behind the more curious placements in a score and scene

[Quintus 5,399]

A thread to discuss and perhaps list examples of themes and motifs where they are inserted into the music in a curious, sometimes nonsensical (on the face of it) way - such as a key character's theme underscoring a scene in which they aren't even featured, or a place being signalled by music related to a character, or maybe somewhere else entirely. What is the thinking behind it, why is it done? Is it always an artistic choice or do time constraints and even a lack of ideas/inspiration likely play a bigger part than we might think? As enthusiasts, we like to theorise and come up with our own answers - some eventually becoming the accepted thinking behind a given cue, but how can we be sure that our conclusions are the definitive thinking behind the cue's construction?

The first example which comes to mind for me and has been openly discussed before, is Leia's theme playing during the death of Ben Kenobi in Star Wars. What really is the reasoning behind this theme's inclusion in the scene, what is the significance of Leia's music?

Other examples welcome!

[crocodile 7,990]

You mean like Dejah's theme from John Carter appearing in the middle of the battle, in a scene which contains emotional flashbacks that have nothing to do with the character.

Karol

[Quintus 5,399]

And Duel of the Fates playing as Anakin takes a drive through the night...

That one jarred immediately.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Hedwig's Theme isn't really married to Hedwig. In fact, there's no clear relationship between that theme and anything in the movie. Is it Hedwig's or Harry's theme? Is it like a general theme for the magic of that world? For my money, as Ed Wood might say, it's like the God (theme) that looks over all the characters and oversees everything.

And Duel of the Fates playing as Anakin takes a drive through the night...

That one jarred immediately.

It's the battle theme of the prequels and Anakin was having an internal struggle with the dark side...uh, right? Couldn't you tell?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It's really just misnamed

[Faleel 5,341]

Here They Come in ROTJ

DOTF is also used in TPM for the non duel scenes as well.

[Jonesy 55]

The Trade Federation March in AOTC.

[Faleel 5,341]

Darth Vader Theme in the end battle of TPM.

[KK 3,307]

The Isengard theme playing against the Mordor material during the Siege of Gondor and Grond - Hammer of the Underworld

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

He didn't really fuck up though, did he? The score is beautiful there, and the nature theme works perfectly.

You know, sometimes - thematic continuity aside - nice music just sounds good with certain scenes.

[Faleel 5,341]

And are not Rohirrim natural?

[KK 3,307]

The Nature theme during the Charge Of The Rohirrim! I don't know how many excuses I've read about why this theme was included here ("Duh, there are horses in the scene, they represent nature!". Seriously?)... People would do anything to defend Shore when he fucks up!

I think Shore's excuse was that he wanted to draw parallels between Rohan's aid, nature and fate because nature was a powerful theme in Tolkien's work...or something like that.

The truth? The Nature theme is one beautiful theme and Shore knew how much it would kick ass in rousing, action mode.

What I found more bothersome was the use of the Isengard rhythm against the Mordor material in some of action cues, or the actual appearance of the Isengard theme in the Land of Shadow?

Sometimes composers just disregard the contextual purpose of a theme because it perfectly fits the moment. The musical purpose/moment is more important at times.

[mrbellamy 6,272]

I thought the reason behind that was to draw a direct parallel with the Ents marching on Isengard. Marching confidently towards death. Thematically, they're similar moments, and the way the music builds until they begin to march in both instances is virtually identical. I always think of the Ents whenever the Rohirrim charge comes up, it seems a valid connection to me.

[indy4 155]

I thought Jackson requested that shore use that theme? Or maybe that was just what I assumed

[Henry B 50]

I think it resulted from the Nature theme being tracked into a Rohan scene in The Two Towers. That editorial change essentially co-opted the Nature theme to become another Rohan theme.

[Jay 37,322]

Yes.

[Wojo 2,453]

Yoda's Theme heard on Bespin as Leia and friends try to save Han. Almost to tell Luke "I told you so."

[Datameister 2,037]

Keep in mind there's also that unused statement of Yoda's theme that would have scored part of the Vader/Luke duel, just before Vader gets knocked off the carbon freezing chamber platform. I figure that Luke is kinda kicking ass at that point, and it's thanks to Yoda's teaching, so Yoda's theme gets a nod.

[Mahawa 0]

From JW's liner notes of the Original STAR WARS DLP release: "For "Ben‘s Death" I used part of the Princess Theme in the beginning. l felt it had the most sweeping melody of all the themes in the score. This wildly romantic music in this tragic setting represents Luke's and the Princess' reaction to leaving Ben behind."

So form trumps over content. The music doesn't fit thematically but for JW it just sounds better.

(Which reminds me of someone at this board calling the use of "The Arena" from AOTC in the scene where Anakin leads the stormtroopers to the Jedi Temple in ROTS "inacceptable". Sounds to me like the kind of people who would tell Picasso to "use a bit more blue here"...)

As for "Duel of the Fates" when Anakin rides his speeder bike across the desert in AOTC: It's music for a Jedi being seduced by the dark side. It's a perfect fit. Why object to it?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It's not a fuck up.

It's a deliberate creative decision and I say that without irony.

The most pronounced and effective use of that theme in TTT was for the scene were Theoden decides to ride out one last time. Even though the cue was not written for that scene. So Shore decided to reassign the theme to the Rohirrim.

I don't understand why people like Doug Adams fail to acknowledge this simple fact.

[Richard Penna 3,676]

I guess since Adams is writing about the thematic structure of the score, he feels compelled to stick to 'excuses' as to why the theme is used.

But whether or not Shore adopted the theme for the Rohirrim, it just sounds damn cool. Scholars can pore over the work as much as they want, but if a theme is out of place but absolutely makes a scene, knock yourself out.

[Brónach 1,301]

You mean like Dejah's theme from John Carter appearing in the middle of the battle, in a scene which contains emotional flashbacks that have nothing to do with the character.

Watch the whole scene again. Carter is identifying Dejah with his wife and saying he won't allow Dejah to die like it happened to her. The Dejah theme picks up from there as Carter fights the Warhoon.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I guess since Adams is writing about the thematic structure of the score, he feels compelled to stick to 'excuses' as to why the theme is used.

I know that is probably the reason. But the fact is that LOTR was scored for a trilogy of films, and not every decision Shore had to make were based on purely musical grounds. Film music, by it's very definitions means that the composer also has to conform to the whims of the director. And in this case I agree that the Nature theme fits brilliantly for the Rohirrim.

Ignoring this, and trying to talk your way around it to provide some pure artistic reason why the Nature theme was re-assigned is simply bending the truth and cheapens Adam's otherwise excellent writing on these scores.

[Brónach 1,301]

It doiesn't feel to me like the theme was reassigned, more like they played around with its implications and thje paralell between scenes.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

No!

It's simple. The Nature theme represented Nature in the first 2 films. PJ or his editor decided to use that theme for the scene were Theoden decides to ride forth one last time, it worked, so Shore decided to use that theme for Rhohan.

That's simply what happened.

This whole idea that the Rohirrim had become a "force of Nature" is simply not true. Why didn't he use it for the Elves, who are far closer to Nature then Theoden and his folk?

[Richard Penna 3,676]

An interesting implication is that I first thought the theme was a 'rescuing' theme, due to its use in the 'Rohan Will Answer' scene.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

LOL to me it started out as the "Moth" theme. in FOTR.

[Brónach 1,301]

When I first saw the films it struck me simply as a general theme of sorts for the "good guys", actually.

[KK 3,307]

When I first saw the films it struck me simply as a general theme of sorts for the "good guys", actually.

Likewise.

And I understand Adams' reasoning behind coming up with the excuses for the theme's use. He wanted it to seem that all the themes and the paths they took were all intended and carefully planned right from the beginning.

But as Steven said, Shore was ultimately serving the film. And sometimes what works best for the film precedes the musical rules of his work in terms of priority.

Aligning the Nature theme with the Rohirrim was a brilliant move in how it worked out for the film.

[Delorean90 42]

(Which reminds me of someone at this board calling the use of "The Arena" from AOTC in the scene where Anakin leads the stormtroopers to the Jedi Temple in ROTS "inacceptable". Sounds to me like the kind of people who would tell Picasso to "use a bit more blue here"...)

The problem arises when you have such a pivotal moment in the development of the character and in the scope of the story, and with all the pertinent thematic material available (the Imperial March, the Emperor's theme, the dark theme from "Palpatine's Big Pitch," or even something original lacing in one or more of these), we end up with music not even re-recorded, but TRACKED from a scene that involves the good guys fighting a bunch of giant monsters in an arena.

[Faleel 5,341]

What I found more bothersome was the use of the Isengard rhythm against the Mordor material in some of action cues, or the actual appearance of the Isengard theme in the Land of Shadow?

As we know, the 5 beat is not a a Isengard theme, also Saruman (in the movies and to a lesser extent in the book) is working with Sauron, and the Uruk-hai are pretty much a copy of the Saurons Uruk's which is what the theme usually represents.

[MrJosh 892]

(Which reminds me of someone at this board calling the use of "The Arena" from AOTC in the scene where Anakin leads the stormtroopers to the Jedi Temple in ROTS "inacceptable". Sounds to me like the kind of people who would tell Picasso to "use a bit more blue here"...)

The problem arises when you have such a pivotal moment in the development of the character and in the scope of the story, and with all the pertinent thematic material available (the Imperial March, the Emperor's theme, the dark theme from "Palpatine's Big Pitch," or even something original lacing in one or more of these), we end up with music not even re-recorded, but TRACKED from a scene that involves the good guys fighting a bunch of giant monsters in an arena.

Yes

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Faleel 5,341]

This. It is obvious KK knows very little about the story and the themes associated to each faction, character and creature. The 5/4 beat pattern, more than a theme for Isengard, is a theme for all Orcs, and in ROTK, we are introduced to the Uruk-Hai (Uruks) of Mordor, so it seems only logic for Shore to use that theme here. Revise your classics, Merciful Boy.

Fixed!

[KK 3,307]

What I found more bothersome was the use of the Isengard rhythm against the Mordor material in some of action cues, or the actual appearance of the Isengard theme in the Land of Shadow?

As we know, the 5 beat is not a a Isengard theme, also Saruman (in the movies and to a lesser extent in the book) is working with Sauron, and the Uruk-hai are pretty much a copy of the Saurons Uruk's which is what the theme usually represents.

I always assumed the 5 beat rhythm represented Saruman's forces in general. I never particularly associated it with the Uruk-hai alone or all orcs in general.

Having said that, the Uruk connection is a bit of a loose one in my humble opinion (during the Land of Shadow scene) but it makes sense.

I still prefer if the 5/4 rhythm were used for the Uruk-hai of Isengard alone (along with the Isengard theme). The Uruk-hai are still a different entity from the Uruks of Mordor. And both forces have their individual thematic ideas. Mixing them up by having one of them represent all Uruks instead of Saruman's forces alone makes it border the lines of a conceptual mess. Of course LotR is nothing of the sort.

And although this is topic, I never liked the film's tendency to pair up Saruman as a loyal ally of Sauron. It made the character seem more two dimensional as he had more of an independent mind in the novel where his madness desired to possess the ring for himself. Since I've always associated the 5/4 motif with the Isengard forces, hearing it always irked me as if the musi was insinuating hat Saruman's forces had joined Sauron's...but that whole issue is a rant for another time...

[crocodile 7,990]

You mean like Dejah's theme from John Carter appearing in the middle of the battle, in a scene which contains emotional flashbacks that have nothing to do with the character.

Watch the whole scene again. Carter is identifying Dejah with his wife and saying he won't allow Dejah to die like it happened to her. The Dejah theme picks up from there as Carter fights the Warhoon.

Yeah, but it is a loose ineterpretation anyway. I don'[t know if he has this kind of a connection do Dejah at this point in the story.

Karol

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

A quotation of Gollums Song in the opening track of TTT

[Brónach 1,301]

You mean like Dejah's theme from John Carter appearing in the middle of the battle, in a scene which contains emotional flashbacks that have nothing to do with the character.

Watch the whole scene again. Carter is identifying Dejah with his wife and saying he won't allow Dejah to die like it happened to her. The Dejah theme picks up from there as Carter fights the Warhoon.

Yeah, but it is a loose ineterpretation anyway. I don'[t know if he has this kind of a connection do Dejah at this point in the story.

Karol

I guess Giacchino thought it would be easier to have a single "love theme" than two.

[Richard Penna 3,676]

A quotation of Gollums Song in the opening track of TTT

Where's that?

And I really need to listen to that track again - very appropriate credits song.

[Wojo 2,453]

I think Foundations of Stone was the best intro music of the three.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

And I really need to listen to that track again - very appropriate credits song.

Around the 2.28 mark. listen to the horns. Before the film, based on that I figured teh film would open with a recap of the previous film and that bit of Gollum's Song would underscore the famous shot of him at Moria.

I think Foundations of Stone was the best intro music of the three.

It's certainly the most dramatic opening scene of the 3 films.

Those mountains, that music and then McKellen's voice coming in, the sudden reveal of the Balrog scene.

Chilling.

[KK 3,307]

I prefer the prologue of FotR in terms of the music, but they're both great openers.

The opening scene of TTT is my favourite in the trilogy.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Do you mean The Prophecy (from the OST) or One Ring To Rule Them All?

I love The Prophecy, it gets the tone right straight away.

One Ring To Rule Them All is good, but it feels like a patchwork. (why is the Ringwraith Theme in there?)

[KK 3,307]

I love them both. I find myself switching between the two for my favourite, depending on my mood.The Prophecy really sets the tone for the entire trilogy. The graceful progressions of the piece truly inhabit the atmosphere of Middle-Earth. But often I prefer One Ring to Rule Them All because its such a perfect summary of many of the thematic ideas that would show up in the trilogy. I used to play this cue again and again with no end in sight. I think my particular fondness for the cue has to do with my affinity for the actual intro in film, which has to be one of the finest prologues ever crafted. I love playing the FotR Complete Recordings and being opened to this cue. It's like you're getting introduced to all the characters (thematic ideas) you're going to get to know very well over the next 3 hours.

I can't really explain why the Ringwraiths Theme is there (I've always wondered about that). He could have at least used the "Power of Mordor" variation. Another wandering motif I suppose.

[Jay 37,322]

I am sure the Ringwraith material appearing in the prologue is a direct request from Peter Jackson. None of the alternates that have surfaced, all of which would have been recorded prior, have it

[Incanus 5,713]

I am sure the Ringwraith material appearing in the prologue is a direct request from Peter Jackson. None of the alternates that have surfaced, all of which would have been recorded prior, have it

Actually the Prologue Alternate on the Rarities disc has the Ring Wraith theme albeit veering into the Power of Mordor motif. But I too suspect PJ had his hand in Shore using more of the established themes in the Prologue and in the films in general as Shore's early work is often less thematic and more textural than the finished pieces in the films.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Like I said, parts of it feel a bit cut as paste.

I love the first part of The Prophecy, how it builds into that powerfull choral theme.

[Faleel 5,341]

Around the 2.28 mark. listen to the horns.

I hear action music lifted from Bridge of Khazad-dum...

[222max 1]

It is a creative decision that is sometimes tempered with having nothing better to work with. Case in point: Yoda's theme playing in the droid factory rescue scene in Attack of the Clones. Makes absolutely no sense there but Lucas reportedly threw this whole sequence in last minute to keep the movie from dragging at that point. He needed some exisiting music and put Yoda's theme there because he must have felt it fit musically, if not logicially.