What '30s, '40s, '50s scores were considered obtrusive and overbearing in their day?

[Hlao-roo 388]

...Or is this a critical formulation that has emerged primarily in recent decades as critics and audiences have become, or at least fancied themselves, increasingly refined?

[Quintus 5,391]

Back then when talking film scores, words like "overbearing" and phrases like "not as good as they used to be" were taboo. Then the internet happened.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

Rozsa's biblical scores have always been over the top. No subtlety at all, just repeating what is there on the screen, while adding nothing new.

Hermann was an attention whore too if you judge him by his music.

[Quintus 5,391]

It's a fact that critics didn't even exist until Cagney and Lacey.

[mrbellamy 5,231]

There's a documentary on the DVD of The Treasure of the Sierra Madre where Leonard Maltin mentions such criticisms (that he disagreed with) of Max Steiner's score. Don't remember if he meant at the time or in retrospect, though. The only contemporary review of the movie I can find, from The New York Times, doesn't mention the score at all.

[Ollie 859]

I miss good film music.

As with everything I'm sure there were golden age scores that weren't that good but that was an era of excellent music.

[Matt C 423]

Overbearing? That's the charm of Golden Age scores. I mean, Korngold's scores are the epitome of over-the-top and everyone loved his busy, tutti orchestrations.

The only one that really stands out to me is the busy, propulsive theme for Leigh Harline's Pickup on South Street.

[Koray Savas 2,095]

I watched Dr. No tonight and while it's 60s, the scene in which Bond kills the spider is probably one of the most overscored scenes in film lol

[Wojo 2,442]

I drove in the dark pounding rain the other day, and found Psycho (the Elfman version at any rate) is good accompaniment.

[JamieC 13]

Hi folks

Do any of you know Mervyn Cooke's book 'A History of Film Music' ?

JC

[ShowUStheHOOK 6]

I drove in the dark pounding rain the other day, and found Psycho (the Elfman version at any rate) is good accompaniment.

Ive done something similar! I was with a friend of mine one night cruising around town ( enter I GET AROUND by the beach boys here )...lol It was pounding rain, and for some stupid reason I said " hey, lets listen to Red Dragon" ........... yeah, pretty much lost all credibility after that. lol

[BLUMENKOHL 1,064]

What you have to understand about the 30s, 40s, and 50s, and even 60s and 70s and even well into the 80s is that the "intrusive" or "overbearing" nature of the scoring was not accident. It was decision making on the part of composers and directors and producers.

Filmmaking technology was severely limited by comparison, I'll leave the for better or worse argument for another time. But suffice it to say as the tools of filmmaking have grown more complicated and powerful, music is called on less and less to fill in the gaps caused by technology limitations.

Where 60 years ago a director might have called on a composer to write "foggy music" to capture the mystery and intrigue of a foggy night....today he can get his sound guys to throw together surround sounds that capture fog, he can call on his visual effects team to create mysterious and intriguing fog. Therefore he might call on his composer to not capture "wispy" nature of the foggy night...but the doom and gloom emotional aspect of it it.

Music is now relied on more as an emotional manipulator rather than a sensory device. I don't think it's a good or bad trend, you can point to both fantastic or terrible examples of it. It's just a different way that has been slowly evolving since the early days of cinema.

[Pieter Boelen 633]

Having sailed with big ships through fog on many occasions, I didn't know fog had a sound to it?

[BloodBoal 7,532]

You've clearly only been through fake fog.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

Low horns or basses with an untertone of high pitched flutes or viola. Maybe a wavering clarinet in there also

[Koray Savas 2,095]

This was perfect for the opening of Shutter Island, as they pushed through the fog and saw the island for the first time.

[Roll the Bones 2,967]

Low horns or basses with an untertone of high pitched flutes or viola. Maybe a wavering clarinet in there also

or some low "whining" strings..

[MrJosh 440]

I watched Dr. No tonight and while it's 60s, the scene in which Bond kills the spider is probably one of the most overscored scenes in film lol

I like that we hit a full orchestra hit each time bond smashes that damn spider.

[Koray Savas 2,095]

That's what I was referring to haha

[Pieter Boelen 633]

You've clearly only been through fake fog.

Very fake. Still couldn't see anything out of the window though.

[Hlao-roo 388]

What you have to understand about the 30s, 40s, and 50s, and even 60s and 70s and even well into the 80s is that the "intrusive" or "overbearing" nature of the scoring was not accident. It was decision making on the part of composers and directors and producers.

Filmmaking technology was severely limited by comparison, I'll leave the for better or worse argument for another time. But suffice it to say as the tools of filmmaking have grown more complicated and powerful, music is called on less and less to fill in the gaps caused by technology limitations.

Where 60 years ago a director might have called on a composer to write "foggy music" to capture the mystery and intrigue of a foggy night....today he can get his sound guys to throw together surround sounds that capture fog, he can call on his visual effects team to create mysterious and intriguing fog. Therefore he might call on his composer to not capture "wispy" nature of the foggy night...but the doom and gloom emotional aspect of it it.

Music is now relied on more as an emotional manipulator rather than a sensory device. I don't think it's a good or bad trend, you can point to both fantastic or terrible examples of it. It's just a different way that has been slowly evolving since the early days of cinema.

"Music in the gaps" -- intriguing point. Not to bring religion into this, but, for the sake of analogy, similar to "God in the gaps" -- the notion that in a pre-Enlightenment society, we rely on religion and superstition to occupy our understanding of the world, but that as science lays claim to more and more of that conceptual space, our dependency on God to fill in the gaps in our knowledge becomes smaller and smaller.

I would think, though, that the aesthetic wasn't strictly determined by functional necessity but also broadly conditioned by cultural norms, and that our contemporary allergy to anything that smacks of "manipulation" owes something not only to the evolving purposes of film music but to changing expectations about what music is and isn't allowed to bring to the table.

[Incanus 5,519]

And as almost everything else in human endeavour films and film music go in cycles, while giving birth to new ways of saying things. I have been watching a fascinating 15 episode documentary by Mark Cousins called The Story of Film: An Odyssey, which takes a look at the art form globally from its roots to the modern day and if anything it has shown, that there is constant innovation but also return to the past and past modes of film making filtered through new eyes of the next generation of film makers. This I think applies to film music as well both the composers and the audiences' understanding and wider views on the matter.

[Wojo 2,442]

"Music in the gaps" -- intriguing point. Not to bring religion into this, but, for the sake of analogy, similar to "God in the gaps" -- the notion that in a pre-Enlightenment society, we rely on religion and superstition to occupy our understanding of the world, but that as science lays claim to more and more of that conceptual space, our dependency on God to fill in the gaps in our knowledge becomes smaller and smaller.

I tried to do this when I learned to speak Russian in high school. I used "Spanish in the gaps." It. Did. Not. Work.

[BloodBoal 7,532]

[JoeinAR 1,759]

I'm laughing at the idea that many (any?) of you are even familiar with films of the 30's, the 40's, and the 50's.

As past threads asking if people are familiar with black and white films have shown that few here watch old movies. Very sad.

[Brónach 490]

I'm laughing at the idea that many (any?) of you are even familiar with films of the 30's, the 40's, and the 50's.

As past threads asking if people are familiar with black and white films have shown that few here watch old movies. Very sad.

I've read quite a few forum members commenting "old" films every now and then.

[publicist 4,484]

Have a life full of gaps, I say.

Aye.

[Wojo 2,442]

I haven't watched as many "old" films as I should have. However, TCM is a wonderful cable channel, being what AMC used to be before it became so heavily inundated with commercials, and usually offers something worth watching.

[JoeinAR 1,759]

I haven't watched as many "old" films as I should have. However, TCM is a wonderful cable channel, being what AMC used to be before it became so heavily inundated with commercials, and usually offers something worth watching.

good, GOOOOOD.

I wish there was a black and white channel that only showed black and white programming.

while contemplating Alan's original title I am hearing the music to the Creature from the Black Lagoon in my head. yet overbearing and obtrusive do not fit that score.

[Brónach 490]

But... but... I like old films in colour too...

[JoeinAR 1,759]

so do I but the 30's and 40's were dominated by black and white and some sepia tone films.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

How does B&W look on blu?

[Incanus 5,519]

Blacker and whiter than you have ever seen it before!

[JoeinAR 1,759]

very good, I have numerous B&W films on blu, and one sepia tone film (Wizard of OZ).

I'm most anxious to watch the Universal Monster Essentials on blu, but since it's a Christmas present I must wait.

Psycho is beautiful, Dr. Strangelove is vibrant(thanks Koray),

the Mist has a black and white version and to me it gives it more atmosphere.

King Kong is just AMAZING.

[Wojo 2,442]

I think the only B&W movies that I own on DVD are King Kong (1933) and Young Frankenstein, but I'm in no hurry to re-buy them because I don't watch them often enough.

[Koray Savas 2,095]

very good, I have numerous B&W films on blu, and one sepia tone film (Wizard of OZ).

I'm most anxious to watch the Universal Monster Essentials on blu, but since it's a Christmas present I must wait.

Psycho is beautiful, Dr. Strangelove is vibrant(thanks Koray),

the Mist has a black and white version and to me it gives it more atmosphere.

King Kong is just AMAZING.

The black and white version of The Mist is the only version I watch. Adds so much more mood, heightens the cinematography, and cuts down on the poor CGI.

[JoeinAR 1,759]

I forgot to add that A Christmas Carol is also very nice on blu. I'd like to get all the old versions of a A Christmas Carol that are available on blu. I know the 1935 version of Scrooge is available on blu but the source print was very poor and the blu suffers but hell for 4 bucks it will be worth it. I also want the 1938 version, A Christmas Carol, and I want the 1954 version with Frederick March and Basil Rathbone, these last 2 available only on DVD.

[Quintus 5,391]

The last time the Brits made world beating films was during the black and white era. Our archives are literally bursting at the seams with classics, they're never ending in numbers. Possibly the largest collection of 5 star greatness from a single country during that era.

Now we mainly make shite.

But a moviegoer who overlooks the time of cinema before colour isn't really a moviegoer at all.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

The Inbetweeners movie and the remake of The Sweeney are not shite!

[Wojo 2,442]

Then you've got classic B&W movies that are converted to color...THERE'S shite!

[Naïve Old Fart 6,637]

Then you've got classic B&W movies that are converted to color...THERE'S shite!

True dat!!!!

[Wojo 2,442]

Example: Arsenic and Old Lace

[Naïve Old Fart 6,637]

I have had the absolute dis-pleasure to have sat through a colourized "It's A Wonderful Life". I made a sound I would not want to hear twice in my life...

[JoeinAR 1,759]

I see what you did there guy from Close Encounters and Home Alone.

I think it's easy to say that the music for that begone era is more melodramatic than we get today, such a shame as melodrama can work in any age. Personally I love films and film music the elicits emotion.