An Unexpected Journey SPOILERS ALLOWED Discussion Thread

[Once 605]

But some scenes differ from the book.

[Jilal 569]

What "cave scene"?

The group crosses the Misty Mountains, sees stone giants (which wasn't epic at all in the book), they find a cave, the end of the cave turns out to be false, they battle goblins coming out of it and they are taken to the Goblin king.

[Jay 37,346]

Eh that's more or less what happened in the film, they just moved fighting with goblins to later

[paleo 63]

Finally saw the movie... in glorious, old-fashioned 2D - and had a blast. There were only minor things I didn't like (I still don't buy that the dwarves would have happily agreed to be bound to that skewer only to achieve that Bilbo wasn't ripped apart right there on the spot, but oh well). The design is great (especially the interior of the Lonely Mountain), and it didn't feel long to me at all (was surprised that 3 hours had passed). I can imagine length is more an issue for people that aren't so much into Tolkien stuff, though.

[Jay 37,346]

I still don't buy that the dwarves would have happily agreed to be bound to that skewer only to achieve that Bilbo wasn't ripped apart right there on the spot

Yea I wasn't sure about that part either. I wish they had done it more like the book actually, where the dwarves sneak up on the trolls one by one and get captured in sacks, and then finally Thorin comes in alone and speaks to the trolls. I didn't like the all-out attack they do on the trolls, it was too early for it and the heroic battle variation of the Plan 9 theme.

I also really wish it had shown Bilbo distracting the trolls all night long, rather than just for a minute or so

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

and the cgi poines were awful.

on a side note, is funny to see in stores the LEGO sets for the barrel escape, the attack of the mirkwood spiders...

[Incanus 5,714]

I wonder how long these films would have been if there only had been two. 4 hours each?

[Jay 37,346]

I am sure they would have been under 3 hours each. There would have been a crap ton left on the cutting room floor, and the scenes left in would all be cut tighter than the current configuration

[Incanus 5,714]

That might have happened. But then again it might have not. One never knows with PJ.

[Jay 37,346]

Why does Bilbo's elven knife (Sting) glow when orcs are present, but Glamdring and Orchrist don't? Is it just because Glamdring isn't shown glowing in the LOTR movies? (Why wasn't it glowing there either anyway?)

Seeing Andy Serkis play Gollum with a split personality again was certainly fun and amazingly well done, but I always kind of thought Gollum didn't develop his dark side until after he lost the ring, and that it was his anger at Bilbo for stealing the ring that made his dark side. I dunno. I suppose he's shown as being violent when him and Deagol first find the ring in the movie world (I forget how that scene is described in the book).

I wish we got to see more of Gollum's boat!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,346]

I did notice my second time that Sting is never shown glowing during the first warg chase. The first time its shown glowing is when Bofur notices it glowing in the Misty Mountain cave. it glows from then until Gollum kills that one orc they were down there with, and then doesn't seem to glow again when Bilbo gets close to the exit, when surely orcs would have been nearby? Anyway, then it definitely wasn't glowing during the start of the final warg chase, but I think it might have been by the time he was up in the tree and, I can't remember.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,346]

I didn't like how it turned right off when the orc died, would have been cooler if it slowly faded out from that point I think.

[Marian Schedenig 8,191]

Both times I saw the film it seemed to be that the one rabbit that is shown standing up and tapping his feet before the others is the one saying "Quickly, quickly!", but maybe you are right and it is Radagast speaking the line and I was fooled twice.

I remember them saying (or seeming to say) something at that point. I also remember that there was an earlier scene where I wasn't sure if they weren't talking.

[KK 3,307]

I think we established that it was probably Radagast saying the line.

[Marian Schedenig 8,191]

I thought the film was good, but disappointing. For me, the coolest parts were the ones that either a) focused on the backstory for the LotR or b) were totally unrelated. The former provided cool backstory. The latter was just a cool opportunity to explore Tolkien's magnificent universe. As soon as they started talking about the new epic story (the dwarves' struggle with the Orcs), it seemed like they were just retreading old ground and sensationalizing what, if my memory serves me, was not a very epic book. Having the eagles come to save everybody at the end confirmed that they were really trying to mimic the LotR trilogy films.

As others have said, the eagles are straight out of the book. In fact, it's not the only time they appear in The Hobbit, and their second appearance in LOTR is a deliberate parallel to The Hobbit (in fact, Bilbo is mentioned specifically).

Oh wow, really? I guess I just wish that hadn't been the cilmax of the film. Everything about it felt like the end of RotK--the slow-mo, the fact that every single character was in jeopardy, like how that random troll almost kills Aragorn in the end of RotK even though everyone would understand the danger if they just showed how hopeless Frodo's situation was, and some random fighting shots. It was Jackson's attempt to make every single character at the lowest of lows, so that the Eagles could look really good in comparison. It just felt like Jackson's go-to ending. If that makes any sense.

The whole overdone Thorin/Bilbo heroism stuff was an invention for the film. And I didn't like it. Also, Gandalf calling the eagles is wrong (as it was wrong in LOTR).

In the beginning of FOTR, Gandalf makes a point to point out directly to Bilbo and the audience that Bilbo "hasn't aged a day". We know that this is because Bilbo has the One Ring, which the prologue tells us prolongs old age. However in AUJ, Bilbo pulls out a drawing of himself at the time of The Hobbit, which of course looks like Martin Freeman, and Bilbo narrates something like "oh Frodo, I look so much older than I did then". Hmmm.

For what it's worth, I think "haven't aged a day" refers to their last meeting some 30 years or so earlier, quite some time after the events of The Hobbit. I think the power of the Ring didn't immediately have an effect on Bilbo, but only gradually become apparent when he was using it more frequently.

Something confused me about the Radagast/Witch King scene. Well OK many things did, but I'll talk about one for now: He manages to fend of the Witch-King, and pick up his Morgul Blade, which he gives to Gandalf, which he gives to the White Council, etc. However, The Witch-King uses that blade to stab Frodo at Weathertop in FOTR. How does he get it back?

As others have said: No reason to assume there's a strongly limited number of those blades. In fact, Aragorn in FOTR specifically calls it "a Morgul blade", implying that there are more.

Here's a big head scratcher. Galadriel shows up in Rivendell, has conversations with a bunch of people, is around for a while. Then in the last moments of Gandalf and her's final scene.... she disappears. WHY? What PURPOSE did that serve?

None, which is why it bothered me. LOTR (the book) implies that the Ring bearers are capable of psychic connections, so the long distance calls in TTT and ROTK (the films) can probably be accepted as canon. But I don't see any point in bringing it up here, and by LOTR's rules, Saruman shouldn't be part of the group.

No, what we need is a Radagast with dignity that can take the role of "the other wizard".

I think he had a fair share of dignity in the Dol Guldur sequence. I liked him there.

I wish we got to see more of Gollum's boat!

Agreed!

I think we established that it was probably Radagast saying the line.

I think you have. But I was trying to point out that at least I also made this connection.

[Jay 37,346]

In the beginning of FOTR, Gandalf makes a point to point out directly to Bilbo and the audience that Bilbo "hasn't aged a day". We know that this is because Bilbo has the One Ring, which the prologue tells us prolongs old age. However in AUJ, Bilbo pulls out a drawing of himself at the time of The Hobbit, which of course looks like Martin Freeman, and Bilbo narrates something like "oh Frodo, I look so much older than I did then". Hmmm.

For what it's worth, I think "haven't aged a day" refers to their last meeting some 30 years or so earlier, quite some time after the events of The Hobbit. I think the power of the Ring didn't immediately have an effect on Bilbo, but only gradually become apparent when he was using it more frequently.

Oh! I didn't realize that! That's ok then.

LOTR (the book) implies that the Ring bearers are capable of psychic connections, so the long distance calls in TTT and ROTK (the films) can probably be accepted as canon. But I don't see any point in bringing it up here, and by LOTR's rules, Saruman shouldn't be part of the group.

What do you mean?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,346]

Ah right of course.

BTW where are the 7 dwarf rings during the time of TH and during the time of LOTR?

Also could the ring-bearers of the 3 elf-rings communicate with the bearers of the dwarf and man rings?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

Ah right of course.

BTW where are the 7 dwarf rings during the time of TH and during the time of LOTR?

A few of them were destroyed and lost. Not all of them were present at the time. It's believed that Sauron or "The Necromancer" tortured Thrain to get his Ring of Power.

Also could the ring-bearers of the 3 elf-rings communicate with the bearers of the dwarf and man rings?

I don't think so. Although it's never specified, I believe the Ring-Bearers can only communicate with those of their race. It was only the One Ring that had dominion over all the rings of Power, and in turn all the races.

[Jay 37,346]

Oh I just thought of something! In the LOTR prologue, 7 dwarves are shown holding up their rings of power. Are any of those dwarves ones we have now met in The Hobbit?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

No, none of the original ring-bearers of the seven were present here. However, Thrain (Thorin's father) did have one passed down to him.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Marian Schedenig 8,191]

Also could the ring-bearers of the 3 elf-rings communicate with the bearers of the dwarf and man rings?

I don't know, but I don't think it's mentioned by Tolkien.

As far as I recall, Tolkien mentions as much that while all Rings had powers, the elven Rings (including, by extension, the one) were far beyond the others as features go. I don't think the others would have had telepathic powers.

[KK 3,307]

In the beginning of FOTR, Gandalf makes a point to point out directly to Bilbo and the audience that Bilbo "hasn't aged a day". We know that this is because Bilbo has the One Ring, which the prologue tells us prolongs old age. However in AUJ, Bilbo pulls out a drawing of himself at the time of The Hobbit, which of course looks like Martin Freeman, and Bilbo narrates something like "oh Frodo, I look so much older than I did then". Hmmm.

For what it's worth, I think "haven't aged a day" refers to their last meeting some 30 years or so earlier, quite some time after the events of The Hobbit. I think the power of the Ring didn't immediately have an effect on Bilbo, but only gradually become apparent when he was using it more frequently.

Oh! I didn't realize that! That's ok then.

By the way, about that: someone at TORN pointed out that in the first teaser trailer, when Frodo is leaving Bag-End to wait for Gandalf, and is saying goodbye to Bilbo, it's not Holm, but Freeman playing Old Bilbo! I checked, and he's right. Maybe you won't be able to notice it in the screencap below, but check the teaser in 1080P: it's definitely him.

Now, that's weird, because I suppose it's Holm in that shot in the film, so why would they film that? Is it something they tried, but ultimately gave up? Or will we see Freeman as Old Bilbo in There And Back Again?

I recognized that when the first teaser came out. Are you sure its still Ian Holm on film?

Also could the ring-bearers of the 3 elf-rings communicate with the bearers of the dwarf and man rings?

I don't know, but I don't think it's mentioned by Tolkien.

As far as I recall, Tolkien mentions as much that while all Rings had powers, the elven Rings (including, by extension, the one) were far beyond the others as features go. I don't think the others would have had telepathic powers.

I think the Dwarven rings didn't prolong life or make them invisible. I believe it enhanced their ability to mine or something.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

Right, I forgot you haven't seen the film yet. Well, do we know if Holm actually went to New Zealand for filming? I don't recall the details.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,346]

I don't believe Holm flew to New Zealand. They replicated the Bag End set in London, as seen here:

But i see what you are saying, they didn't replicate the OUTDOOR portion of the set, and that shot was clearly filmed outdoors.

You know, you may be onto something, it may in fact be Freeman in the final film! I will be sure to check next time I see it!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

Well if Holm didn't make it to New Zealand, then how did they get those shots of both Frodo and Bilbo in the outdoor shots of Bag End?

I think Freeman was used for that one shot.

[Jay 37,346]

Green screen?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,346]

There is more than that one shot of Frodo and Bilbo talking outdoors.

[KK 3,307]

Well if Holm didn't make it to New Zealand, then how did they get those shots of both Frodo and Bilbo in the outdoor shots of Bag End. I think Freeman was used for that one shot.

Your post doesn't make fucking sense. You're wondering how they could make these outdoor shots without Holm, then you say Freeman was used for these shots. You're basically answering yourself!

The last sentence was added when I realized you said essentially the same think that I did before me. The last sentence was a proposed answer to me questioning Jason.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Once 605]

Ian Holm and Christopher Lee filmed their scenes in English due to health. I believe Elijah Wood might also have filmed in England with Holm, not sure though.

When I watched the movie it was obvious to me that it was not Holm in that shot.

[Jay 37,346]

I'll be sure to pay close attention to that shot next time I see the film. I'll also pay attention to Frodo and Bilbo's interaction to see if its clear they were really in the same room or not.

Hey just thought of something! If Elf-ring bearers can communicate telepathically using them, shouldn't Galadriel have known Gandalf was still alive and fighting the Balrog when the Fellowship entered Lorien?

[KK 3,307]

Elijah Wood filmed in New Zealand. You can see that in the production videos.

Hey just thought of something! If Elf-ring bearers can communicate telepathically using them, shouldn't Galadriel have known Gandalf was still alive and fighting the Balrog when the Fellowship entered Lorien?

She only sensed that Gandalf had passed to shadow. In the depths of Moria, Galadriel could not sense Gandalf's presence. Then she read the Fellowship's thoughts to realized he was "dead". Of course the truth came later.

[Once 605]

It's possible for him to film in more than one country, though.

I'll be sure to pay close attention to that shot next time I see the film. I'll also pay attention to Frodo and Bilbo's interaction to see if its clear they were really in the same room or not.

I did pay close attention and I think they were in the same room in the interior scenes. When I sat close to the screen it was obvious that it wasn't Holm in that shot from BloodBoal mentioned.

[Jay 37,346]

Obviously Elijah filmed in NZ; the question is whether or not he ALSO filmed in London - IE, to actually interact with Holm instead of through green screen.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

That will be changed on future editions of FOTR.

[KK 3,307]

Obviously Elijah filmed in NZ; the question is whether or not he ALSO filmed in London - IE, to actually interact with Holm instead of through green screen.

Oh, in that case I think he did. I saw no evidence of green screen.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,346]

That will be changed on future editions of FOTR.

What will? What post are you replying to?

[Incanus 5,714]

Also could the ring-bearers of the 3 elf-rings communicate with the bearers of the dwarf and man rings?

I don't know, but I don't think it's mentioned by Tolkien.

As far as I recall, Tolkien mentions as much that while all Rings had powers, the elven Rings (including, by extension, the one) were far beyond the others as features go. I don't think the others would have had telepathic powers.

I think the whole telepathy idea is taken from LotR where it is mentioned how Galadriel, Celeborn, Elrond and Gandalf all seem to communicate without words when they are returning home from Minas Tirith at the end of the novel, implying some sort of ability to project their thoughts. It has nothing to do with the Rings. In LotR it is implied also that Galadriel spoke to the members of the Fellowship in their minds, offering them things and testing their loyalty. This is in part depicted in the film as well, especially in Frodo's case. So who knows how powerful their ability to reach other minds through their thoughts was. In the novel they also speak of Sauron's shadow obscuring their vision or that everything under the Shadow is unknown to them, implying perhaps only normal means of communication but also these more mystical powers Elrond and Galadriel and the most powerful of the Eldar had.

Also there were three Dwarven Rings left in the world during LotR, all taken by Sauron (the last one he took was that of Thráin) and the other four were thought destroyed by Dragons or other disasters, effectively lost to the world.

[Jay 37,346]

Do you think Thranduil is miffed he never got a ring?