An Unexpected Journey SPOILERS ALLOWED Discussion Thread

[Incanus 5,713]

Do you think Thranduil is miffed he never got a ring?

I think it was never his place to be miffed. It was not like those Rings were much advertised or handed to people by any other reason than the will of their maker. Celebrimbor, the greatest Elven Smith of the Second Age forged only three and handed them down to Gil-Galad, Cirdan and Galadriel and those were hidden while Sauron held the One Ring. Thranduil wasn't even king at the time nor played any big role in the history of Middle Earth during the Second Age if you do not count the War of the Last Alliance, where his father Oropher perished and Thranduil became king.

Gil-Galad passed his ring Vilya to Elrond, his herald, before the War of the Last Alliance, Cirdan gave Narya to Gandalf as he arrived to Middle Earth and Galadriel held Nenya through the Third Age.

[Jay 37,284]

You know what? I'm beginning to think that in the film world, Azog did actually did of his wounds during the Battle of Azanulbizar, but then later Sauron The Necromancer resurrected him. That would totally explain the use of the Nazgul theme at the end of the movie, like its been repurposed as an "undead servant of Sauron" theme.

[Incanus 5,713]

Monsieur Bunny of Doom aka BloodBoal suggested this possibility as well a while ago. It might actually be a valid guess.

[KK 3,307]

You know what? I'm beginning to think that in the film world, Azog did actually did of his wounds during the Battle of Azanulbizar, but then later Sauron The Necromancer resurrected him. That would totally explain the use of the Nazgul theme at the end of the movie, like its been repurposed as an "undead servant of Sauron" theme.

As Incanus said, BloodBoal already came to that assumption. Azog probably did die and was resurrected, hence the whole emphasis on the Necromancer's ability to raise the dead (which I find absurd because the title is supposed to be nothing more than an archetypal form of identification!). But that still doesn't explain the use of the Nazgul theme. Or at the very least, it's a far-fetched explanation.

The Nazgul theme stands for the wraiths, but I suppose it can be re-purposed to befit the undead. But wait, Azog already has his own theme, so why bring up this new theme now. I mean Shore spent the majority of the film addressing Azog with his descending Mordor motif. What's so special about that one scene to signify the fact that he's undead? There's no real leitmotivic purpose of putting the Nazgul theme there.

If that ends up being the reason, it would be a very far-fetched one.

[Jay 37,284]

How long are orcs supposed to live for anyway?

And how can Bolg be Azog's son - aren't they bred in pods? That's what the FOTR movie showed. Or were those just Uruk-hai that are bred in pods? And if the special thing about Uruk-hai were supposed to be that they can move in daylight, then why are all of Azog's orcs able to chase our heroes in the daylight?

The Nazgul theme stands for the wraiths, but I suppose it can be re-purposed to befit the undead. But wait, Azog already has his own theme, so why bring up this new theme now. I mean Shore spent the majority of the film addressing Azog with his descending Mordor motif. What's so special about that one scene to signify the need of him being undead?

If that ends up being the reason, it would be a very far-fetched one.

Well maybe this new arrangement of the Nazgul theme was written for a scene that got moved to Film 2, then was tracked into Film 1 against Shore's intentions. You're right, there's no reason to highlight his un-deadness at that point in the movie when he had been using his own theme up until that point.

This also begs that question - WHY did Sauron resurrect Azog? Is it because Sauron wants Thorin dead? If so why - what does he care? It is because Thorin wants to reclaim Erebor, and Sauron wants Smaug for himself? OK fine, but how would Sauron have found out about Thorin's quest? Thorin tells Gandalf twice he told no one of his plans.

I wish Film 1 explained why the wargs were chasing the company in the first place. Revenge isn't a good enough reason.

[KK 3,307]

The orcs being bred in FotR were Uruk-hai, a unique race bred from men in the hills and orcs. So no, Bolg wouldn't have been bred in a pod.

And the sunlight doesn't kill or stun the orcs. It just hurts their eyes, and they can't stand it. So they can fight in the sun if they had to. Uruk-hai on the other hand are much stronger than orcs and are impervious to sunlight, so it bothers them not.

I suppose those orcs just had to have the fight happen.

[Incanus 5,713]

The orcs being bred in FotR were Uruk-hai, a unique race bred from men in the hills and orcs. So no, Bolg wouldn't have been bred in a pod.

And the sunlight doesn't kill or stun the orcs. It just hurts their eyes, and they can't stand it. So they can fight in the sun if they had to. Uruk-hai on the other hand are much stronger than orcs and are impervious to sunlight, so it bothers them not.

I suppose those orcs just had to have the fight happen.

The way the film portrays the creation of Uruk-hai by Saruman has no basis in Tolkien's writings, except in some uncanonical early drafts in the History of Middle Earth series on their origin. Sauron and Saruman actually bred Uruk-hai through sorcery and normal breeding but that would have been PG 18 stuff for the films. You know, the nature's way.

Uruk-hai I think were a result of racial modification, enhancing the strongest and most vicious Orcs through sorcery and selective breeding.

Saruman was perhaps the first to mix human and Orcish stock, which even Sauron had not attempted before, creating half-orcs in the process. These were his spies in Bree for example.

Orcs might actually live indefinitely as there lineage traces to Elves but their violent life and society does not allow this for most of them.

Normal Orcs are indeed cowed by day light and stronger light and not stand it for very long. They prefer to act under the cover of darkness. This is also a thematic strand, the servants of Darkness are actually repulsed by light as it stands diametrically opposite to them. Which makes the Warg Riders in the film quite an anomaly but I think dramatic needs outweigh such loyalty to Tolkien's concepts.

[KK 3,307]

The Nazgul theme stands for the wraiths, but I suppose it can be re-purposed to befit the undead. But wait, Azog already has his own theme, so why bring up this new theme now. I mean Shore spent the majority of the film addressing Azog with his descending Mordor motif. What's so special about that one scene to signify the need of him being undead?

If that ends up being the reason, it would be a very far-fetched one.

Well maybe this new arrangement of the Nazgul theme was written for a scene that got moved to Film 2, then was tracked into Film 1 against Shore's intentions. You're right, there's no reason to highlight his un-deadness at that point in the movie when he had been using his own theme up until that point.

We'll have to find out soon I guess. But Doug claims that everything in the film is the way its supposed to be...

This also begs that question - WHY did Sauron resurrect Azog? Is it because Sauron wants Thorin dead? If so why - what does he care? It is because Thorin wants to reclaim Erebor, and Sauron wants Smaug for himself? OK fine, but how would Sauron have found out about Thorin's quest? Thorin tells Gandalf twice he told no one of his plans.

BloodBoal suggested that Sauron wanted Thorin dead because he knew about the real intentions of the Quest for Erebor (to eradicate Smaug). This is one plot I can't buy into, because lets face it. Sauron was blind to the fact that the One Ring of Power was being sent to the heart of his realm to be destroyed when pretty much all the races of Middle-Earth knew about it! So how on Earth would he know about Gandalf's quest when aside from the White Council, no one knew his plans. Heck, even the dwarves didn't know Gandalf's true intentions. There must be another reason, or I will be quite irritated with Boyens, Jackson and Walsh!

I wish Film 1 explained why the wargs were chasing the company in the first place. Revenge isn't a good enough reason.

Honestly, its possible that it might be just that. It's why I thought the Azog storyline felt so cheap. They couldn't think of any other way to keep the sense of urgency up in the film. It's a big chase at the end because some orc was really pissed about the past.

Of course, it could be there are some ulterior motives with sauron and all that. But this is the problem with fan-fiction. When you create all these new characters and sub-plots, you have define a proper purpose to them other than creating cheap thrills, otherwise it comes off as distasteful.

The orcs being bred in FotR were Uruk-hai, a unique race bred from men in the hills and orcs. So no, Bolg wouldn't have been bred in a pod.

And the sunlight doesn't kill or stun the orcs. It just hurts their eyes, and they can't stand it. So they can fight in the sun if they had to. Uruk-hai on the other hand are much stronger than orcs and are impervious to sunlight, so it bothers them not.

I suppose those orcs just had to have the fight happen.

The way the film portrays the creation of Uruk-hai by Saruman has no basis in Tolkien's writings, except in some uncanonical early drafts in the History of Middle Earth series on their origin. Sauron and Saruman actually bred Uruk-hai through sorcery and normal breeding but that would have been PG 18 stuff for the films. You know, the nature's way.

I'm well aware of that. I was just referring to how it works in Peter Jackson's version of Middle-Earth. You know...the one with the Orc Shamans, crazy wizards high on bird-shit, zombie orcs and bunnies of Doom?

[Incanus 5,713]

I'm well aware of that. I was just referring to how it works in Peter Jackson's version of Middle-Earth. You know...the one with the Orc Shamans, crazy wizards high on bird-shit, zombie orcs and bunnies of Doom?

Ah that Middle Earth...anything goes.

[KK 3,307]

Saruman was perhaps the first to mix human and Orcish stock, which even Sauron had not attempted before, creating half-orcs in the process. These were his spies in Bree for example.

So the Uruk-hai of Mordor followed the creation of the Uruk-Hai of Isengard right? Except the former are supposed to be more powerful?

Normal Orcs are indeed cowed by day light and stronger light and not stand it for very long. They prefer to act under the cover of darkness. This is also a thematic strand, the servants of Darkness are actually repulsed by light as it stands diametrically opposite to them. Which makes the Warg Riders in the film quite an anomaly but I think dramatic needs outweigh such loyalty to Tolkien's concepts.

We all know that warg-chase was little more than a farce staged by Jackson to get the company to Rivendell the cool way...FIGHT AND FLIGHT!

[Incanus 5,713]

Saruman was perhaps the first to mix human and Orcish stock, which even Sauron had not attempted before, creating half-orcs in the process. These were his spies in Bree for example.

So the Uruk-hai of Mordor followed the creation of the Uruk-Hai of Isengard right? Except the former are supposed to be more powerful?

If you are asking about the films, I have no idea what Jackson meant. Uruk-hai styled Orcs do appear in the Mordorian army after the Isengard is vanquished. In the novel Sauron creates them long before Saruman but passes his "formula" to his servant after he has been corrupted.

Normal Orcs are indeed cowed by day light and stronger light and not stand it for very long. They prefer to act under the cover of darkness. This is also a thematic strand, the servants of Darkness are actually repulsed by light as it stands diametrically opposite to them. Which makes the Warg Riders in the film quite an anomaly but I think dramatic needs outweigh such loyalty to Tolkien's concepts.

We all know that warg-chase was little more than a farce staged by Jackson to get the company to Rivendell the cool way...FIGHT AND FLIGHT!

Yes because Thorin was made a pigheaded biggot to create a problem and an obstacle where there was none in the novel. Sure it links to Thorin's hatred of the Elves later in the book and his stubborn nature but that Warg scene doesn't really accomplish anything major. Except a cool action cue.

[KK 3,307]

Saruman was perhaps the first to mix human and Orcish stock, which even Sauron had not attempted before, creating half-orcs in the process. These were his spies in Bree for example.

So the Uruk-hai of Mordor followed the creation of the Uruk-Hai of Isengard right? Except the former are supposed to be more powerful?

If you are asking about the films, I have no idea what Jackson meant. Uruk-hai styled Orcs do appear in the Mordorian army after the Isengard is vanquished. In the novel Sauron creates them long before Saruman but passes his "formula" to his servant after he has been corrupted.

I meant the novels this time. Thanks for the clarification, admittedly I'm not very familiar with the orc history. Cue BloodBoal and Azgog jokes.

Normal Orcs are indeed cowed by day light and stronger light and not stand it for very long. They prefer to act under the cover of darkness. This is also a thematic strand, the servants of Darkness are actually repulsed by light as it stands diametrically opposite to them. Which makes the Warg Riders in the film quite an anomaly but I think dramatic needs outweigh such loyalty to Tolkien's concepts.

We all know that warg-chase was little more than a farce staged by Jackson to get the company to Rivendell the cool way...FIGHT AND FLIGHT!

Yes because Thorin was made a pigheaded biggot to create a problem and an obstacle where there was none in the novel. Sure it links to Thorin's hatred of the Elves later in the book and his stubborn nature but that Warg scene doesn't really accomplish anything major. Except a cool action cue.

That's true. I suppose some good came out of it.

[publicist 4,643]

I saw THE HOBBIT yesternight and found it 70% intolerable fan service without much reason to exist, the other 30% consisted of one dramatically potent scene (Gollum) and some playful stuff with McKellen and Freeman et al. The blame is easy to put: the film lacks rhythm and a convincing narrative with a vengeance.

While the whole thing starts off rather charmingly (the Hobbiton scenes, much too long though), as soon as the journey starts we are given the full EPISODE I-III treatment: overlong WETA showcases that stop the story cold, proverbial rabbits pulled out of hats (or asses, given Jackson's sometimes rather regressive tendencies) to provide convenient last-minute solutions, artificial menaces that take up a sizeable chunk of the bloated running time and smug lovemaking to the own filmic heritage seem to provide a fertile ground for overstuffed turkeys...at least Jackson lets his actors breath.

Some of the spectacle was ok and it wasn't awful, but it came close sometimes. The decision to make three movies out of a little book for adolescents is purely economical and betrays the story of its charm. I didn't mind the huckster carnivalism of 48fps, 3 D and whatever 'superspecial' Dolby system my local Cinemaxx promised me, it looked like a videogame but i didn't found that an actual detriment (only that some movements seemed artificially sped up).

2,5 out of 5...and that's generous.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

You haven't seen it yet? What the hell?!?

[Brónach 1,301]

Well, never thought I'd say that, but I'm afraid I'll probably agree with most of what pub said after I've seen the film...

I wish Film 1 explained why the wargs were chasing the company in the first place. Revenge isn't a good enough reason.

As KK said, I'm afraid that's the only reason we're gonna be given.

Let alone being told why that's going on right at the time Thorin is going on his quest and not at any other time.

The decision to make three movies out of a little book for adolescents betrays the story of its charm.

THIS

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

You haven't seen it yet? What the hell?!?

His mom and dad haven't had a chance to take him yet.

The plight of being 9 years old.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

Poor Bloodboal has quite the potty-mouth. Tsk tsk. I think its time for a time out.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,713]

Shut up, Blume, I'm not a kid! SHUT UP, YOU DUMB FUCK!

You go sit in the "naughty chair" in the hall as we talked the last time you were having a tantrum! Now! And no I won't hear any excuses! Quickly now or you'll end up without supper tonight!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Quintus 5,399]

Ugh

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

Like Radagast owning Gandalf's staff.

We all know what that means... Bye bye Radgy!

What's this business about Radagast and Gandalf's staff?

Radgy's staff looks suspiciously like Gandalf's staff in FOTR...

Found this today. Confirmed by McCoy. Radagast's hobbit staff if Gandalf's LOTR staff: here

HC: And you get to carry a staff…

SM: If you know your “Lord of the Rings,” you might recognize it. You’ll have to wait and see what happens in the next three years. You’ll find out about that staff. It’s quite important eventually. It’s a mystery. I don’t want to give it all away.

[Marian Schedenig 8,172]

I think the whole telepathy idea is taken from LotR where it is mentioned how Galadriel, Celeborn, Elrond and Gandalf all seem to communicate without words when they are returning home from Minas Tirith at the end of the novel, implying some sort of ability to project their thoughts. It has nothing to do with the Rings. In LotR it is implied also that Galadriel spoke to the members of the Fellowship in their minds, offering them things and testing their loyalty. This is in part depicted in the film as well, especially in Frodo's case. So who knows how powerful their ability to reach other minds through their thoughts was. In the novel they also speak of Sauron's shadow obscuring their vision or that everything under the Shadow is unknown to them, implying perhaps only normal means of communication but also these more mystical powers Elrond and Galadriel and the most powerful of the Eldar had.

True, it might not be tied to the Rings at all. As for the earlier comment about Galadriel not seeing whether Gandalf was dead, only that he had fallen into shadow: I don't remember the exact chronology, but let's not forget that Gandalf actually does die and wake up "somewhere". Galadriel may have seen/sensed that, also.

And how can Bolg be Azog's son - aren't they bred in pods? That's what the FOTR movie showed. Or were those just Uruk-hai that are bred in pods?

Curiously enough, I don't think Tolkien ever mentioned how Orcs procreate, or whether there are female Orcs (or male ones, for that matter). He does specifically say that Bolg is Azog's son though.

And if the special thing about Uruk-hai were supposed to be that they can move in daylight, then why are all of Azog's orcs able to chase our heroes in the daylight?

Good point, actually, as that's an important plot point in the book. Not only does it allow the company to escape from goblin town, as the orcs can't follow them before sunset, giving them enough of a head start to reach the woods before they orcs catch up. It's also the reason why it takes the orc army so long to assemble and reach Erebor later on.

This also begs that question - WHY did Sauron resurrect Azog? Is it because Sauron wants Thorin dead? If so why - what does he care? It is because Thorin wants to reclaim Erebor, and Sauron wants Smaug for himself? OK fine, but how would Sauron have found out about Thorin's quest? Thorin tells Gandalf twice he told no one of his plans.

I fear it may just end up being simple revenge without any specific reason, and Azog's resurrection may also be left unexplained. I don't have a problem with the necromancer doing some actual necromancing - I never really thought about, or questioned, the title, and if Tolkien the linguist just used it for the fancy name, it's his fault ultimately. But resurrecting random orcs just for fun seems rather absurd.

The way the film portrays the creation of Uruk-hai by Saruman has no basis in Tolkien's writings, except in some uncanonical early drafts in the History of Middle Earth series on their origin. Sauron and Saruman actually bred Uruk-hai through sorcery and normal breeding but that would have been PG 18 stuff for the films. You know, the nature's way.

Uruk-hai I think were a result of racial modification, enhancing the strongest and most vicious Orcs through sorcery and selective breeding.

Saruman was perhaps the first to mix human and Orcish stock, which even Sauron had not attempted before, creating half-orcs in the process. These were his spies in Bree for example.

I don't recall Tolkien ever mentioning *how* the process of corrupting Elves into Orcs worked, or how exactly those are then turned into Uruk-hai. Tolkien does suggest (though not confirm) the Elven origin, and I think he also hints at the possibility of a human component in the Uruks. I even thought it was Saruman in the book as well who came up with them?

In the films at least, Gandalf clearly states that "Saruman has crossed Orcs with Goblin-Men", so apparently the Bree spies were the first stage who then got crossed with the Orcs.

[KK 3,307]

Like Radagast owning Gandalf's staff.

We all know what that means... Bye bye Radgy!

What's this business about Radagast and Gandalf's staff?

Radgy's staff looks suspiciously like Gandalf's staff in FOTR...

Found this today. Confirmed by McCoy. Radagast's hobbit staff if Gandalf's LOTR staff: here

HC: And you get to carry a staff…

SM: If you know your “Lord of the Rings,” you might recognize it. You’ll have to wait and see what happens in the next three years. You’ll find out about that staff. It’s quite important eventually. It’s a mystery. I don’t want to give it all away.

Oh God, I hope not...

Back off, KK! I'm still older than you!

Well played, sir...well played!

[Brónach 1,301]

Ugh

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

edit: nevermind you ignorant fools

[Incanus 5,713]

I don't recall Tolkien ever mentioning *how* the process of corrupting Elves into Orcs worked, or how exactly those are then turned into Uruk-hai. Tolkien does suggest (though not confirm) the Elven origin, and I think he also hints at the possibility of a human component in the Uruks. I even thought it was Saruman in the book as well who came up with them?

In the films at least, Gandalf clearly states that "Saruman has crossed Orcs with Goblin-Men", so apparently the Bree spies were the first stage who then got crossed with the Orcs.

It would be reasonable to assume that Tolkien left such details of the creation of Orcs untold on purpose so as not to over explain a myth. But he states that Sauron devised the first Uruks and they first appeared out of Mordor in 2475 when they assaulted Ithilien in large numbers and overtook that land briefly. I would assume that Sauron passed his knowledge to Saruman or Saruman found out the process of enhancing the Orcs (he did study the ways of the Enemy more closely than anyone else among the Wise) and experimented on them to create his own version of Uruk-hai and also producing these half-orcs, part men, part orc, who worked as his spies and servants.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,713]

Silmarillion also states quite clearly how Melkor corrupted and tortured captive Elves and turned them into the race of Orcs in the end. Even though he could not create wholly new life he could mar and corrupt and Orcs became a people that multiplied in the fashion of Elves and Men.

[Brónach 1,301]

Wasn't there a note in the margins or something stating that orcs have nothing to do with Elves? I can clearly remember reading about something of the sort, but I don't know where.

[Incanus 5,713]

Well if you do not take the "canonical" writings as the definitive explanation, there is always the whole host of different versions and variations as Tolkien did revise and reshape his stories extensively. I'll stick to my trinity of The Hobbit, Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion as the most trusted and final word on these matters. But in the end who knows what would have been Tolkien's final word if he had had time to finish his work (which might have been impossible task no matter how long he would have refined his tales).

[Marian Schedenig 8,172]

Silmarillion also states quite clearly how Melkor corrupted and tortured captive Elves and turned them into the race of Orcs in the end. Even though he could not create wholly new life he could mar and corrupt and Orcs became a people that multiplied in the fashion of Elves and Men.

It's been a while, but I thought even there it was only (strongly) hinted at. More like rumours that he kept the Elves alive for torture and assumptions that the Orcs were the result of that?

[Incanus 5,713]

Silmarillion also states quite clearly how Melkor corrupted and tortured captive Elves and turned them into the race of Orcs in the end. Even though he could not create wholly new life he could mar and corrupt and Orcs became a people that multiplied in the fashion of Elves and Men.

It's been a while, but I thought even there it was only (strongly) hinted at. More like rumours that he kept the Elves alive for torture and assumptions that the Orcs were the result of that?

Silmarillion, which of course might have not been Tolkien's final word as he was in the middle of numerous theories in all things considering Middle Earth, does state things quite clearly:

"Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi [Elves] who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes....This it may be was the vilest deed of Melkor, and the most hateful to Ilúvatar."

And as you say it is but one theory Tolkien proposed and those ranged from the earliest idea of Orcs being born out of mud and slime (the films followed this idea) to Orcs being twisted and corrupted Men similarly transformed by Melkor as Elves (another draft). I still hold the Silmarillion as canon though.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,713]

I warn you. I will go into a long mythological rant at the least provocation! Don't make me recite the obscure annals of the First Age or quote 3000 stanzas from the Lays of Beleriand!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[John Takis 206]

Orcs might actually live indefinitely as there lineage traces to Elves but their violent life and society does not allow this for most of them.

It's an interesting notion, although my guess would be that whatever corrosive biological process Morgoth used to deform the Orcs' original genetic makeup made a long and healthy life unlikely, even apart from their lifestyle. I like the fact that in Jackson's films, the "leader" Orcs (both Gothmog and the Great Goblin) are especially diseased and deformed. This seems correct to me; one can speculate that longevity goes hand in hand with increasing physical corruption -- and that without the benefit of a hardy Elvish constitution (or what remains of one), these beings would have succumbed to their grotesque infirmities long ago.

The more interesting question to me is not where the bodies of Orcs (and other servants of the Enemy) come from. It is easy to imagine Morgoth corrupting pre-existing life into something terrible ... in fact, it is not too hard to imagine this in the real world, given the current state of science. The bigger question concerns their minds and spirits. The idea of an entire race of truly living beings, with their own thinking brains and souls, who are essentially predestined for damnation was troubling to Tolkien. There is some interesting writing on this topic in the "Myths Transformed" section of the History of Middle-earth book Morgoth's Ring. Having presented the Orcs as unable to repent or be redeemed, Tolkien was forced to consider their nature as "rational" agents. One concept was of Orcs as mere intelligent animals, capable of being trained to speak and behave the way a parrot does. But this in itself doesn't seem like a totally satisfying explanation for how they are presented in the novels. I favor the theory that the wills and minds (such as they are) of the Orcs are actually broken fragments of the mind/will of Morgoth himself -- and probably Sauron with him. Unable to create minds and souls ex nihilo, they expended some of their own power to infuse their malformed subjects with thoughts and motives. This concentrated their power in the form of an army of followers ... but a crude and fractious one. And it had the effect of diminishing their own potency and selfhood -- sort of like Voldemort breaking his soul and installing its pieces in "horcruxes," in the Harry Potter series. This scenario would be similar to the way that a large portion of Sauron's power and will was concentrated in the One Ring; it made a great weapon, but it made him ultimately vulnerable to dissolution. It also neatly explains why the Orcs, after Sauron's downfall, essentially go crazy and destroy themselves. The vital principle that was animating their brutish thoughts and desires was suddenly torn away, and all that was left was broken animal impulses.

There is also a suggestion that certain "higher level" Orcs or Goblins may in fact house indwelling spirits from before the creation of Arda, as with Balrogs, creatures like Ungoliant, and (it is implied) Dragons. In a case like this, Morgoth's groundwork provides a body and a fallen spirit provides a "soul." Azog seems like he would be a likely candidate for this sort of malefic possession ... perhaps the Great Goblin, also. It would help explain why they have so much more personality and strength of will than the underlings who surround them.

[Incanus 5,713]

An interesting thought and this comes partly through in Lord of the Rings. Although then there are the periods when Orcs operate by themselves when Sauron is dormant or work independently from him and achieve goals and evil ends on their own. Tolkien does to a degree portray the expending of the will and power of both Morgoth and his servant Sauron towards controlling their minions and also how in the end expending this power diminished them as they spent themselves in the tasks of domination and subjugation. In LotR of course the Orcs are not rendered mere puppets that would be drive only by Sauron's thought but there is a notion of Sauron's will directing them in concerted efforts and when deprived of this commanding will they fall into disarray and confusion. It is perhaps the same effect as he had on the Ringwraiths, empowering them with even greater strength when they attacked Minas Tirith, bolstering their terror and their powers considerably.

[publicist 4,643]

I know that some posters seem to blossom into full flower with this stuff, but is this really about the movie in any way?

[John Takis 206]

Yes, it is difficult to write the Orcs off as "mere puppets." Tolkien's thinking was not always clear or consistent, but he seems to have finally envisioned them as something more than this -- although most likely not "ensouled" in the sense of Elves and Men.

[Quintus 5,399]

I know that some posters seem to blossom into full flower with this stuff, but is this really about the movie in any way?

The turgid tangents/hijacks seen here are the reason I'd have preferred to talk about the movie in The Last Film You Watched thread, but that didn't please Jason (who apparently knows what's best for everyone). The best option pub is to just avoid the discussion completely like I have. When he really gets into full flow, Incanus and his fellow Tolkienites just send me to fucking sleep

[publicist 4,643]

Fair enough, i just wanted to fashion the daily GET A LIFE a bit more constructive.

[Incanus 5,713]

Ok let's talk the film then. Without putting people to sleep. I promise not digress anymore.

I thought the Goblin Town was only partly succesful as a design. The book paints a much more claustrophobic imagery of the tunnels as the Dwarves are dragged before the Great Goblin, the flight from the throne room through the caverns a dark and hurried affair. Naturally the film is a different media than a novel but the gigantic torch lit hollows where all the action takes place reminded me a tad too much of Moria and were somehow too open. For 3D it is spectacular but somehow turns the sequence into a rollercoaster that grows into at times grotesque proportions. But I think that was PJs point all along. Also I have never seen such an impractical front door.

The Great Goblin was less troubling than I initially thought. Grotesque yes, too much to handle, no.

[Jilal 569]

Well said, Incanus. The book depicts this claustrophobic imagery very well.

[John Takis 206]

Didn't mean to crash anyone's thread. Just passing through, and something caught my eye. I wasn't aware this was a pet peeve for some of you. For my part, the films are so steeped in the literature -- including lesser-known Tolkien writings -- that I don't always draw hard lines between them. In any case, I've said my piece on the subject.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Quintus 5,399]

There's a perfectly good Tolkien thread already in existence here for that stuff. Don't be selfish, Bloodbollock.

[BloodBoal 7,538]