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An Unexpected Journey SPOILERS ALLOWED Discussion Thread

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Ok let's talk the film then. Without putting people to sleep. I promise not digress anymore.

I thought the Goblin Town was only partly succesful as a design. The book paints a much more claustrophobic imagery of the tunnels as the Dwarves are dragged before the Great Goblin, the flight from the throne room through the caverns a dark and hurried affair. Naturally the film is a different media than a novel but the gigantic torch lit hollows where all the action takes place reminded me a tad too much of Moria and were somehow too open. For 3D it is spectacular but somehow turns the sequence into a rollercoaster that grows into at times grotesque proportions. But I think that was PJs point all along. Also I have never seen such an impractical front door. ;)

The Great Goblin was less troubling than I initially thought. Grotesque yes, too much to handle, no.

I was surprised to find myself enjoying both the Goblintown sequence and the Great Goblin. Peter Jackson's massive camera wizardry really lends itself to the scene well, even if it looked a bit video-game-ish at times. Still a whole lot of fun!

For all it's worth, I'm sure there are people who found what you wrote to be an interesting read. As Quint said, those who are not interested in the conversation can just avoid the thread for the time being.

I found it interesting!

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Didn't mean to crash anyone's thread. Just passing through, and something caught my eye. I wasn't aware this was a pet peeve for some of you. For my part, the films are so steeped in the literature -- including lesser-known Tolkien writings -- that I don't always draw hard lines between them.

I'm totally with you. I'm not a big fan of keeping everything in its one true thread, partly because it keeps me from reading about stuff I'm only marginally interested in and also because discussions inevitably go off on a tangent every once in a while - especially when the source material is so much more rewarding than the adaptation.

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I can't remember if this has been discussed on JWFan or not, but its pretty much accepted as fact now, so here it is:

The reason that the second trailer, made after they knew they were now doing 3 films, still includes shots of Gandalf almost falling down stairs in what we thought was Dol Guldur is this: That's not Dol Goldur, he's in the Nazgul Tomb area (whatever its called), and this sequence was removed from the Theatrical version of Film 1 at the last minute!

It was supposed to go like this: at some point after Gandalf has his final scene with Galadriel (the conversation which includes the line "the riddle of the morgul blade must be solved") and before he shows up in Goblin Town, he was supposed to be shown investigating the Witch King's tomb, which is apparently somewhere in or near the Misty Mountains in the film world.

I knew this before going into my third viewing and I can see that they really did set it up in the film! Basically Radagast goes to Dol Guldur, gets attacked by the Witch King, gives the Morgul Blade to Gandalf. Then during the White Council, dialogue explains that the Witch King was buried in [insert name of place, I forget] so deeply that no light could enter, etc. So the next step would logically be for Galadriel to tell him to go investigate the Angmar's tomb to see if its empty or not, which was filmed but cut out at the last minute.

So I guess in the world of the films, the Nazgul are men who literally died and were buried, and then Sauron resurrects them using Necromancy. I guess when we finally get to see Gandalf investigating this, he will discover the Witch King's tomb is empty, which will probably lead to a second Council meeting where now even Saruman will agree to all go into Dol Goldur, and voila, you have the expulsion of Sauron from Dol Guldur setup.

What remains to be seen is if this sequence will be inserted back into Film 1 for the EE, or if it will now be shown in Film 2 as a flashback (like, someone asks him what took him so long to get to Goblin Town, and we see a flashback of it then).

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I guess it might quite easily happen along those lines. I am intrigued about Gandalf's visit to Dol Guldur and meeting Thrain there. Will it be in the EE of the first film or perhaps in film 2 as a flashback? Oddly it was brushed aside in the first film, when you would think that is something PJ would have expounded upon at Bag End when Gandalf gives the key and map to Thorin or somewhere along the way.

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It was supposed to go like this: at some point after Gandalf has his final scene with Galadriel (the conversation which includes the line "the riddle of the morgul blade must be solved") and before he shows up in Goblin Town, he was supposed to be shown investigating the Witch King's tomb, which is apparently somewhere in or near the Misty Mountains in the film world.

While I can't like the idea of resurrected Nazgul zombies, this way at least it makes narrative sense. Seems even more clear to me then that the last minute switch to three films really hurt at least the first one. Perhaps PJ can use the EE to not only extend, but recut the current mess into something more consistent.

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It was supposed to go like this: at some point after Gandalf has his final scene with Galadriel (the conversation which includes the line "the riddle of the morgul blade must be solved") and before he shows up in Goblin Town, he was supposed to be shown investigating the Witch King's tomb, which is apparently somewhere in or near the Misty Mountains in the film world.

While I can't like the idea of resurrected Nazgul zombies, this way at least it makes narrative sense. Seems even more clear to me then that the last minute switch to three films really hurt at least the first one. Perhaps PJ can use the EE to not only extend, but recut the current mess into something more consistent.

I concur! I concur!

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I guess it might quite easily happen along those lines. I am intrigued about Gandalf's visit to Dol Guldur and meeting Thrain there. Will it be in the EE of the first film or perhaps in film 2 as a flashback? Oddly it was brushed aside in the first film, when you would think that is something PJ would have expounded upon at Bag End when Gandalf gives the key and map to Thorin or somewhere along the way.

I think that will definitely be shown in Film 2. Perhaps as the opening prologue - after that scene ends, cut to Gandalf in the Eagles' carrock thinking about it.

Or the Film 2 prologue could be some kind of sequence showing Gandalf visiting the Shire over the years, spending time with Belladonna Took and seeing baby Bilbo, etc. Then it cuts to them hanging out at the Carrock and the scene where Bilbo tells Gandalf he found courage in the mountain that was shown in the Comic Con footage takes place. Then the Gandalf finding crazy Thrain and getting the key can be shown as a flashback somewhere else. Maybe on their way to Mirkwood Gandalf tells the story or something.

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For what it's worth, this Nazgul resurrection business actually qualifies the title of Necromancer. Neither The Hobbit nor the LOTR appendices, unless I missed something, offer any description of what Sauron did as the Necromancer, if anything. It seems that he was just hiding in Dol Goldur until discovered by the White Council.

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Actually the appendixes do go into more detail about Dol Guldur. He amasses his armies there and there are several battles against elves - notably one against the elves of Lorien - where the orcs that staged the battle came from Dol Guldur. Sauron actually chooses Dol Goldur because of its location, specifically its proximity to Lorien and Mirkwood

But you're 100% right that the books never claim ANYWHERE that Sauron ever did any kind of resurrection of the dead or other such necromancy. "The Necromancer" was just a name that he used in The Hobbit cause it was a cool sounding name for a children's tale. When expanding the world for LOTR he decided to make The Necromancer be Sauron before his return to Mordor. But him performing actual resurrection is completely made up by the filmmakers.

Dol Guldur is not supposed to be an empty place inhabited by ghosts like Film 1 of the Hobbit portrays. However you can argue that Radagast only saw a small portion of it and orc armies were in another area off-screen I suppose.

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The Necromancer is an archetypal title given to add a flair of mystery and darkness.

So I guess in the world of the films, the Nazgul are men who literally died and were buried, and then Sauron resurrects them using Necromancy. I guess when we finally get to see Gandalf investigating this, he will discover the Witch King's tomb is empty, which will probably lead to a second Council meeting where now even Saruman will agree to all go into Dol Goldur, and voila, you have the expulsion of Sauron from Dol Guldur setup.

What remains to be seen is if this sequence will be inserted back into Film 1 for the EE, or if it will now be shown in Film 2 as a flashback (like, someone asks him what took him so long to get to Goblin Town, and we see it then).

Oh dear lord, that sounds awful. Nazgul being dead zombies...that's awful. But at least, it makes more narrative sense.

I have a feeling that the extended cut will make more sense than the theatrical. It'll probably seem less bloated and feel like there's less utterly useless scenes because we haven't seen the whole picture yet.

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I have a feeling that the extended cut will make more sense than the theatrical. It'll probably seem less bloated and feel like there's less utterly useless scenes because we haven't seen the whole picture yet.

That's what I'm (vaguely) hoping for. Think TTT, only much more extreme.

It won't make the stupid moments any less stupid, but perhaps they'll be easier to ignore when the surrounding narrative is more engaging.

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We know of Bilbo in the market, Bilbo looking at Narsil (yet another LOTR reference), and this. It's twenty something minutes. What more can possibly be?

I wonder what the Dol Guldur part was like before Jackson invented the Bunnies of Doom.

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We know of Bilbo in the market, Bilbo looking at Narsil (yet another LOTR reference), and this. It's twenty something minutes. What more can possibly be?

An extended version of the Riddles in the Dark scene was mentioned by Jackson.

Silmarillion also states quite clearly how Melkor corrupted and tortured captive Elves and turned them into the race of Orcs in the end. Even though he could not create wholly new life he could mar and corrupt and Orcs became a people that multiplied in the fashion of Elves and Men.

It's been a while, but I thought even there it was only (strongly) hinted at. More like rumours that he kept the Elves alive for torture and assumptions that the Orcs were the result of that?

Silmarillion, which of course might have not been Tolkien's final word as he was in the middle of numerous theories in all things considering Middle Earth, does state things quite clearly:

"Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi [Elves] who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes....This it may be was the vilest deed of Melkor, and the most hateful to Ilúvatar."

And as you say it is but one theory Tolkien proposed and those ranged from the earliest idea of Orcs being born out of mud and slime (the films followed this idea) to Orcs being twisted and corrupted Men similarly transformed by Melkor as Elves (another draft). I still hold the Silmarillion as canon though.

Didn't the films follow the idea of the Silmarillion as well?

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We know of Bilbo in the market, Bilbo looking at Narsil (yet another LOTR reference), and this. It's twenty something minutes. What more can possibly be?

An extended version of the Riddles in the Dark scene was mentioned by Jackson.

Great by me.

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Anyway, your theory about it being removed from Film 1 at the last minute doesn't make sense, because if it had been at the last minute, we probably would have had a cue for that sequence on the OST.

Well it's not a theory - it will still IN film 1 as of at least September when this trailer showing it was released:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oy63TIEfe_I

Also the fact that its music is not on the OST is irrelevant, as there are PLENTY of scenes in the film whose music isn't on the OST - and I'm not just talking re-scores of OST version music. You'd know this if you saw the film!

Moreover, my guess is that the Nazgûl tomb scene will end up in FIlm 2, and not FIlm 1 EE, if what Gandalf finds there is what forces the White Council to take action. If it ends up in Film 1 EE, the average moviegoer watching Film 2 will wonder why Gandalf & Co are talking about this Nazgûl tomb they never saw before, blablabla...

Well the way I see it there are two possibilities:

1. It's a combination of Gandalf finding the Witch King's empty tomb AND what he finds in Dol Guldur when he explores it in Film 2 (while the rest of the company is in Mirkwood) that leads the The Wise agreeing to attack Dol Goldur

or

2. What Gandalf finds in Dol Guldur in Film 2 is the ONLY evidence necessary for the Wise to agree to attack Dol Guldur.

In the case of 1, they will absolutely have to show the Empty Witch King Tomb scene in Film 2 TE. But in the case of 2, the EEs could include the empty tomb subplot while the TEs could skip over it, and we have no problems.

I still think it will be shown in the Film 1 EE. The reason I think this is while the films all have flashbacks, it is always to events that take place BEORE The film series started. For Film 2 to flashback to an event that just happened a day or two before during Film 1 would be kind weird.

Also Galadriel telling Gandalf to solve the mystery of the blade is kind of a weird thing to not pay of until Film 2. I am sure that scene (or the Council scene) originally had more dialogue where people discuss the Witch King's tomb and specifically where it is, with them wondering if its empty now. It would be weird to flashback to not only Gandalf in the tomb and to flashback to that dialogue moment to set it up. No, the more I think about it the more I think it will be in the Film 1 EE. Also the White Council track on the CD is 9 minutes, while the scene in the final film is only 6 minutes, so that dialogue could be some of that extra running time.

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I was never suggesting that he would go back and investigate the tombs during the current events of Film 2 - I suggested:

(like, someone asks him what took him so long to get to Goblin Town, and we see a flashback of it then).

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I think that is verified, but I don't know what specific tie-in product verified it.

EDIT: Here's the proof http://newboards.the...t=search_engine

Here's a description of the scene shown at Comic Con

Gandalf is shown alone in the dark with his staff lit, searching through catacombs where the ringwraith's tombs are...then Radagast appears suddenly. Gandalf whips around to see who is sneaking up on him, he exhales rather irritated, “Oh, it’s you,” Gandalf and Radagast explore the tombs which have been broken open, the tomb of the Witch-King, Radagast says that “These are very Dark Spells, this is not a nice place to meet”, and Gandalf assures him “No, it is not”…leaning over the vertical shaft, they both look down over the edge, as Gandalf counts a total of nine tombs, all with their spells broken and bars ripped.

~~~~

The more i think about it, the more I think this could be the Film 2 prologue sequence.

Think about it. The film opens with a wide shot of Rivendell. After a couple of establishing shots we arrive and Gandalf and Galadriel talking, which we saw in the last movie, but now there is more dialogue where Galadriel tells Gandalf to investigate the High Fells of Rhudaur. Cut to him packing up and leaving Rivendell, Some wide shots of him traveling, then arriving at the entrance. Then he goes inside and the scene is as described in the comic con footage. After the scene ends, we cut to Gandalf with the dwarves in the Eagles' Carrock - Maybe he is describing the story to the company, maybe he is just pondering on it - and the main story continues.

Since they originally had 2 films in mind and therefore only filmed 2 prologues, this could be a nice ad-hoc middle film prologue. It also is nice because it sets up the Dol Guldur showdown, which I think is for certain to be resolved by the end of Film 2.

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Well, I don't think it would make sense to flash back to Gandalf getting the map and key from Thrain unless someone asks him about it. At least with my theory for flashing back to the tombs as the prologue, you have Galadriel setting it up, and it sets up a plot development that will pay off by the end of the film.

I have a feeling that there is either a scene in Film 2 where the map/key is brought up again and Gandalf finally tells a story then and a flashback is shown, OR it was intended to be shown during Bag End when Thorin asks Gandalf about the key, but they filmed an alternate response by Gandalf where he says "don't you mind where I got it" or whatever he says, so they'd have the option of either showing it or not showing it. If that was the case then it would be shown in the Film 1 EE.

Plus, think about it - opening your big epic Part 2 film with him finding some old guy we've never met and getting a map and key we've already seen isn't a very compelling opening to a movie. But him finding proof that Sauron, the greatest enemy of mankind and who has thought been dead for 2,900 years has returned and his 9 greatest servants have all been set free, that's a pretty compelling opening.

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When there's this White Council scene it felt weird. There's a mystery I know the answer to, that doesn't seem to have much to do with the actual plot, and so far it's about this completely meaningless Morgul blade they were talking about. Doesn't really work, although they try.

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Do we even know if in the film world it is Dol Goldur that Gandalf finds Crazy Thrain in? We were already fooled once into thinking Nazgul Tomb footage was Dol Goldur footage; Maybe crazy Thrain footage is also some other location.

Film 1 really makes it seem like Gandalf had either never been to Dol Goldur or hadn't been there in a REALLY long time.

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You think he'll find Thrain still alive and wondering around in Dol Guldur during the events of Film 2? But then where did he get the key and map?

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Thorin specifically asks Gandalf directly where he got the map and key in Bag End, and Gandalf tells him "never you mind" or something along those lines.

Later in Rivendell when Thorin is trying to dissuade Gandalf from showing the map to Elrond, Thorin says something like "I didn't realize it was yours to keep".

Since they are setting up a mystery about where Gandalf got the map and key from as well as Thorin's demanding to know more about it, its surely something that will pay off on screen, and in a future theatrical version I say.

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I still don't think Gandalf finding crazy Thrain and getting a map/key makes a compelling film opening. I think you can't show that scene without first setting it up by having the characters in the current time discussing it. I therefore think it was either intended to be shown during Bag End when Thorin asks him about it there, OR more likely we haven't yet seen the scene where it will be discussed and then shown in flashback. I don't think they'd move it to the opening prologue of Film 2, I think there will be a scene in the Eagles carrock or on the way to Beorn's where Thorin will ask Gandalf about the map/key again and the flashback will be shown then.

I don't think PJ INTENDED to have a trilogy all along, but I think it was definitely an option in the back of his mind all along for sure. It mean think about it, we have a Film 1 that is 2 hours and 45 minutes long, and with rumors the EE will be 25 minutes long that's 190 minutes. Assuming all three EEs would be 190 minutes, that's 9 1/2 hours of finished footage he shot. Since the original plan for for two 3 hour films, do you really think he shot 3 1/2 hours of extra footage? No way. I don't think they would have shot and filmed 9 1/2 hours of movie unless a trilogy was an option to them all along.

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The general slo-mo pace of the first film, the score being heavily edited and changed and the rather sudden feel of the ending to me point to a fairly last minute overhaul. It's possible PJ planned a trilogy. But the studios must have only agreed to it late in the game.

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Another parallel is that in LOTR, the opening prologues to Film 1 and Film 3 cover events that happened long before the events of the film, but the Film 2 prologue shows us a sequence that actually took place during the time frame of the first film, but hadn't been shown before. And, it was a sequence concerning what Gandalf got up to while the main group was doing other things.

I think The Hobbit tril could end up the same way. We already have a great prologue in Film 1 that covers long-ago events, and I'm sure they have already shot (when it was 2 films) a Final Film prologue that shows some old events as well. But now with 3 films, what is your prologue for Film 2? How about another one showing what Gandalf got up to while the main group was somewhere else during Film 1. This makes particular sense considering we know that it was shot and intended to be shown in sequence during Film 1 then removed last minute, so it's possible there's already footage shot where Gandalf tells someone what he found there while in the eagles' carrock or on the way to Beorn's or something.

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We'll find out long before then

~~~~

Hey it is just me or is there no scene where they go up a hill with a full moon in the background in the final film?

thcc_thescroll.jpg

Also how would a full moon make any sense when there's a crescent moon while they are in Rivendell?

I do like how the banner shows Thorin with his original sword at the beginning and with Orcrist at the end.

I don't remember Gandalf having sword before he finds Glamdring though.

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It's not a very surprising revelation though. That's the trouble with prequels. We kinda know what's gonna happen. The mystery of Dol Goldur isn't really a mystery, because we have all seen LOTR.

Knowing what's going to happen is not really a factor in whether a movie is interesting, emotional and/or enjoyable, never really was. Did anyone watch "Titanic" not knowing what was going to happen? Does the enjoyment get sucked out of a Bond movie because you know Bond will live and the villain will die?

Is a remake of King Kong stupid because we know the ape's going to die? Does anyone not enjoy Lord of the Rings because he knows the ring will be destroyed?

Nah.

It's not about the "if", it's about the "how".

The SW prequels also could have been awesome, and it had nothing to do with predictability.

But still, believe it or not, there are people watching the Hobbit not knowing how Sauron rose to return or even knowing what the Necromancer is.

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Do we even know if in the film world it is Dol Goldur that Gandalf finds Crazy Thrain in? We were already fooled once into thinking Nazgul Tomb footage was Dol Goldur footage; Maybe crazy Thrain footage is also some other location.

It looked very much like the same Dol Goldur that Radagast was walking into.

And I think both BloodBoal's and your theories make for poor prologues. I think you're both wrong. ;)

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I saw it. I enjoyed it quite a bit but it had it's share of stupid scenes (the trolls cooking the dwarves for example...why did they let themselves captured and possibly all killed over Bilbo..)

HFR. I got used to it after a while, but I think things look more real without it. I'm not sure our eyes see moving objects like this in real life

The score sounded pretty good and almost eardrum piercing loud. Seems in line with RotK quality wise.

Why does the goblin underground city look EXACTLY like Blight Town the videogame Dark Souls. It's like I was playing that game all over again. Surely it's not a coincidence

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