Does Thor have a point?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

As long as the criticism is reasonable, relevant etc.

You won't get that here.

[Richard Penna 3,687]

---

I get a bit tired of the 'unadulterated praise' thing too. You're not alone there.

But Thor - it's true. The world of soundtrack collecting is not geared towards someone with no connection to the associated films. If you must view albums as separate entities, you have to just deal with the implications, or be willing to adjust the product you receive to fit your exact expectations.

[Jay 37,359]

The world of soundtrack collecting is not geared towards someone with no connection to the associated films. If you must view albums as separate entities, you have to just deal with the implications, or be willing to adjust the product you receive to fit your exact expectations.

This, this, a thousand times this!

[Brónach 1,302]

I just wanted to say that I do see scores separately from the film if I haven't seen it and/or don't care about it. Which is quite usual.

[Richard Penna 3,687]

Yeah I have tons of concept albums/tracks where I haven't seen or don't care about the film.

I see Thor's problem - rummaging through a folder of uninteresting music for a film he doesn't care about. But most of us will do that to find the bits we want.

[Quintus 5,399]

How many pages are we this time around? Just goes to show there's still life in the old dog yet.

[indy4 155]

But Thor - it's true. The world of soundtrack collecting is not geared towards someone with no connection to the associated films. If you must view albums as separate entities, you have to just deal with the implications, or be willing to adjust the product you receive to fit your exact expectations.

I think we're creating a false dichotomy--either you like C&C, or you value music as its own entity and not in its relationship with the film. You can have both (or none).

[Brónach 1,302]

Indeed.

I want to enjoy the music on its own, that's why I prefer complete scores to be available for me if possible.

[indy4 155]

I also want to enjoy music on its own, so I judge scores on a case-by-case basis.

[Richard Penna 3,687]

Yeah, Thor doesn't do 'case-by-case'. He just wants an album, Full stop.

[Brónach 1,302]

I also want to enjoy music on its own, so I judge scores on a case-by-case basis.

Exactly. I just need the complete score to actually "judge" the score as a musical work by itself. See what I like, what I don't. Sometimes I'll be content with a bit of the music. Sometimes I'll be blown away by a complete score and won't accept less (specially when I look at the OST and go "aww but it's missing this and that which I loved, or it's got that or that destroyed and hacked up by microedits").

[Wojo 2,453]

If I like the music and the composer, I want as much of the music as possible.

If I've seen the movie, I'll probably want it in complete film order.

If I haven't seen the movie, then I won't care if the album is C&C.

If I've grown up with an OST that I (me, myself, and Irene) prefer over a "complete" score presentation including micro-edits, dial-outs, loops, and repeated tracks -- for instance, Jurassic Park -- then I'll probably stick with the OST.

If the music is terrible and I don't like listening to it, then it doesn't matter if it's C&C or OST, because I shouldn't own it.

If Thor's tried and tired analogy is rock music, I want to hear the b-sides and alternates and outtakes and songs that didn't make the album, because I value the band's music, and sometimes really great songs are left off the albums or performed only in live concerts -- can I really be a fan of the band if I say this music should never see the light of day and be heard by the fans?

Sure, the difference is that I could watch the movie to get the unreleased music, but as long as the whole "niche C&C soundtrack industry" is cranking out full score albums, why sit there like a cheapskate with a tape recorder or rip DVD tracks?

[Richard Penna 3,687]

I also want to enjoy music on its own, so I judge scores on a case-by-case basis.

Exactly. I just need the complete score to actually "judge" the score as a musical work by itself. See what I like, what I don't. Sometimes I'll be content with a bit of the music. Sometimes I'll be blown away by a complete score and won't accept less (specially when I look at the OST and go "aww but it's missing this and that which I loved, or it's got that or that destroyed and hacked up by microedits").

This.

[Thor 7,504]

---

I get a bit tired of the 'unadulterated praise' thing too. You're not alone there.

But Thor - it's true. The world of soundtrack collecting is not geared towards someone with no connection to the associated films. If you must view albums as separate entities, you have to just deal with the implications, or be willing to adjust the product you receive to fit your exact expectations.

As I said earlier, most commercial soundtracks are thankfully still being produced for people "in my camp". So I still get what I need there.

As for the C&C releases from the niche labels, well.....I don't buy them anymore. Unless the score is previously unreleased (there is no previous album alternative) and I really, really want it. In that case, I just have to make my own amateur playlist out of it. It's a crisis solution and a far cry from a properly produced album, but it's better than nothing at all.

[Brónach 1,302]

I think the approach of most here is actually simply wanting the music the way it is. It's Thor who wants some extremely subjective changng around for some odd reason, even if it ruins the musicality of the music as written and recorded by the composer with loops and microedits and having the same music twice and that stuff. Thor, maybe you don't hear that (I don't know), but I do, and it's extremely annoying. I want my score, my rock album, and my non film-music concert hall music sweet and clear. I want to know what is what, and how it goes.

The weirdest thing, Thor, is that I think you'd react weird if rock concept albums were constantly shortened and re-conceptualized for release to the masses A film score, the way it is, is a musical concept. A released concept album is an original work, a released OST isn't, because it has suffered an aditional process altering it. Of course someone might have interfered with the former... in that case, it wouldn't be, and the false concept album would be in need of a complete and chronological release.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

As for the C&C releases from the niche labels, well.....I don't buy them anymore. Unless the score is previously unreleased and I really, really want it. In that case, I just have to make my own amateur playlist out of it. It's a crisis solution, but it's better than nothing at all.

Oh, come on!

[Thor 7,504]

I think the approach of most here is actually simply wanting the music the way it is. It's Thor who wants some extremely subjective changng around for some odd reason, even if it ruins the musicality of the music as written and recorded by the composer with loops and microedits and having the same music twice and that stuff. Thor, maybe you don't hear that (I don't know), but I do, and it's extremely annoying. I want my score, my rock album, and my non film-music concert hall music sweet ans clear. I want to know what is what.

What ruins it for you is what makes it work for me and vice versa. That's just how it is since we enjoy soundtracks in such a polar opposite way. At least I concede that both approaches are equally valid in their own right, and both will probably exist side by side for all time due to the particular nature of what soundtracks are.

The weirdest thing, Thor, is that I think you'd react weird if rock concept albums were constantly shortened and re-conceptualized for release to the masses A film score, the way it is, is a musical concept.

Of course I would think a re-structuring of a pop album would be weird, because in that case there is no transferring of music from one medium to the other. It's the transfer from one medium to the other that makes adaptation crucial, IMO. Music in film and music on CD works in very different ways and have very different properties.

As for the C&C releases from the niche labels, well.....I don't buy them anymore. Unless the score is previously unreleased and I really, really want it. In that case, I just have to make my own amateur playlist out of it. It's a crisis solution, but it's better than nothing at all.

Oh, come on!

Sorry, but it is.

[Brónach 1,302]

What ruins it for you is what makes it work for me and vice versa. That's just how it is since we enjoy soundtracks in such a polar opposite way. At least I concede that both approaches are equally valid in their own right, and both will probably exist side by side for all time due to the particular nature of what soundtracks are.

I see where you're coming, but I don't have much to concede as long as it doesn't make sense to me.

Of course I would think a re-structuring of a pop album would be weird, because in that case there is no transferring of music from one medium to the other. It's the transfer from one medium to the other that makes adaptation crucial, IMO. Music in film and music on CD works in very different ways and have very different properties.

Can you give us a more detailed and specific explanation of the need for this and the necessary process and its justifications? Since it's so crucial, you must have thought about it. I'm particularly interested in how you see the idea that music is abstract, and as such, what can possibly be adapted while remaining being the same medium.

[Thor 7,504]

Can you give us a more detailed and specific explanation of the need for this and the necessary process and its justifications? Since it's so crucial, you must have thought about it.

Hard to be specific, as it really applies to all forms of adaptation from one medium to the other. When you adapt a book to a film, you choose certain segments of it and stage the story in a way that plays upon the film medium's strengths. It's not just a guy sitting in front of the screen and reading the book from page to page. Same thing when you adapt the music in a film to a CD. Listening to a C&C album is a very schizophrenic, disjointed, stressful and ultimately grating experience for me. It's like I'm listening to the remnants of a film tool outside the film; like I'm listening to 'raw materials'; yes, almost as if I'm seeing the film without visuals and sound effects, and then I'd just rather see the film instead. It moves in this and that direction depending on scene. My brain is not biologically wired to enjoy that.

Sometimes, for example, you'll find that there is a higher musical compatibility between the music in one scene early on and one much later to give the program a better flow AS MUSIC. And so I love it when composers make that connection in their preparation of an album program. That's the artform of album production right there. Or when to remove a drone-like track for a suspense scene because it undermines the momentum of the music and where you want to go.

I think what this difference boils down to in the end -- and I hope we can all agree on that, at the very least -- is how we got interested in soundtracks in the first place. For me, it was an evolution from prog rock to instrumental electronic music and then a curiosity regarding the 'concept album' potential of soundtracks. It was never hearing a piece of music in a film and thinking 'oh, I need to get that on CD'. I've always been interested in films and all the tools that make up that medium (including music), but my soundtrack interest grew naturally from an interest in other musical genres. I've come to realize that this is a somewhat unusual path in the film score world, although for the longest time I thought it was the only way. How little did I know....

[Brónach 1,302]

I think what this difference boils down to in the end is how we got interested in soundtracks in the first place. For me, it was an evolution from prog rock to instrumental electronic music and then a curiosity regarding the 'concept album' potential of soundtracks. It was never hearing a piece of music in a film and thinking 'oh, I need to get that on CD'. I've always been interested in films and all the tools that make up that medium (including music), but my soundtrack interest grew naturally from an interest in other musical genres. I've come to realize that this is a somewhat unusual path in the film score world, although for the longest time I thought it was the only way. How little did I know....

My interest in film music comes from orchestral film music, and that comes from orchestral music in general, which I was into already from a young age. In searching orchestral music that was satisfactory to me I stumbled upon the music in some films I liked. When I started realizing the difference in treatment with the music I previously heard, (I liked Beethoven, Russian composers, Saint Saens, and a variety of stuff from my father's CD collection), I was really upset. It was frustrating and unexplainable, because my music had never been missing pieces before. Where did this betrayal to music come from? What the hell is going on? It didn't seem right. I still think it isn't.

The way I understand it, you weren't interested in the music itself (because you say you weren't attracted to listening to it upong hearing it in the film), but then you thought it could make a sort of CD long rock album using parts of a film score, which turned out to be what was being done to film scores. That's strange to say the least. I'd label you as a casual listener, if it weren't for your stalking of composers (still, what you describe is identical to the casual listeners in my family: grab the OST, however it is, and play from start to finish. End.)

Hard to be specific, as it really applies to all forms of adaptation from one medium to the other. When you adapt a book to a film, you choose certain segments of it and stage the story in a way that plays upon the film medium's strengths. It's not just a guy sitting in front of the screen and reading the book from page to page. Same thing when you adapt the music in a film to a CD.

But I don't think you're changing the medium. Before it was music, now it's music. Before it was music being used with a film. Now is a music being used for something else. The point in both occasions is the same. Film music doesn't suddenly become unlistenable via magic means, unless it is unlistenable.

Listening to a C&C album is a very schizophrenic, stressful, grating and disjointed experience for me. It's like I'm listening to the remnants of a film tool outside the film; almost as if I'm seeing the film without visuals and sound effects, and then I'd just rather see the film instead. It moves in this and that direction depending on scene. Sometimes, for example, there is a higher musical compatibility between the music in one scene early on and one much later to give the program a better flow AS MUSIC. And so I love it when composers make that connection in their preparation of an album program.

Footage is not a music tool, but footage. And the other way around. I can see footage without music, I can listen to music without footage.

For me a complete score has nothing to do with seeing a film. Like I said, I don't normally think on a film when I listen to music. I don't suddenly start missing footage and sound effects and I might not have seen or heard anyway. In fact, when playing a score, unless it's got noticeable edits or loops I wouldn't be able to tell if what I'm listening to is the original music or it has been altered in some way. Can you? How do you it? I would only be able to tell if like what I hear or not.

In fact, when I started to get into orchestral film music I did so because I felt meandered less than the non film music I'd heard at the time, when suddenly awesome styles and ideas were abandoned in favour of something else without letting it grow, while I then found than in one of these film scores they sticked to these things all the way through, a particular, identificative sound for a particular score, a particular set of themes, etc On top of that, it had an unpredictability, when things would suddenly change but without really departing from what I was listening. I liked the free structure of it. There's a higher musical compatibility between this and that? That is meaningless. If there isn't musical compatibility it wouldn't have been composed that way, unless the composer doesn't know what he's doing. As music is naturally abstract, something can follow something else, unlike in something not abstract like a story. Musical incompatibility is what happens when a naturally composed and recorded piece of music is subject to non-musical alterations like those that plague JW's albums.

If not, whhat defines musical compatibility between two pieces? Compatibility is when music as composed goes from one side to the other. Even if both sides are different, that's how the music goes, using musical techniques. It's made that way. Now, if I just cut in half, and put them somewhere else, it isn't compatible anymore! You could argue that the two pieces are more compatible now because they're next to more similar music, or because now they alternate with different music. And because you could justify anything on the basis that it sounds good to you, it's meaningless.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Why do people keep arguing with Thor about this?

It's easy to point at the logical fallacies in his arguments, but he'll just continue on, so what's the point?

[Brónach 1,302]

Why do people keep arguing with Thor about this?

Why do people keep arguing about religion?

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Keep arguing? When was the last time religion was discussed on this board? We aren't even discussing that directly if you're referring to the Other Topics thread, more about civilization and society.

[Brónach 1,302]

No no, I meant in general.

[Thor 7,504]

The way I understand it, you weren't interested in the music itself (because you say you weren't attracted to listening to it upong hearing it in the film), but then you thought it could make a sort of CD long rock album using parts of a film score, which turned out to be what was being done to film scores. That's strange to say the least.

To me, that's the most normal thing in the world, and I was quite surprised when I first discovered it was a minority approach some 12 years ago, when all these C&C releases started cropping up all over the place.

My attraction to film music -- as music (disregarding sequencing) -- has to do with a kind of emotional immediacy you can't find in classical music to the same extent. So I definitely want to retain that aspect. I don't want to mess too much with the tracks themselves, i.e. the compositions that they choose to keep. But I prefer it when they import means from "pure" music to structure those tracks. Could be as simple as a suite approach, but could be other things too.

But I don't think you're changing the medium. Before it was music, now it's music. Before it was music being used with a film. Now is a music being used for something else. The point in both occasions is the same. Film music doesn't suddenly become unlistenable via magic means, unless it is unlistenable.

Film and CD are two different media, right? As such, music behaves differently, has different purposes and properties in the two different media. Film music is timed to specific editing points and has a specific purpose in relation to whatever is going on in a scene. And it often ties very disparate scenes together. When you remove the film from the equation, there is nothing for the music to latch on to anymore. So you have to change the structure in order for the music to make MUSICAL sense again. Not filmical. There's a WHOLE other logic at play.

For me a complete score has nothing to do with seeing a film. Like I said, I don't normally think on a film when I listen to music. I don't suddenly start missing footage and sound effects and I might not have seen or heard anyway. In fact, when playing a score, unless it's got noticeable edits or loops I wouldn't be able to tell if what I'm listening to is the original music or it has been altered in some way. Can you? How do you it? I would only be able to tell if like what I hear or not.

It's good for you if you can't. When I hear a C&C, all I get out of is the sad remnants of something slaving away to a thing that isn't there anymore. It's not really a musical experience. It's not filmical either. It's just.....nothing. A frustrating nothing. I don't feel it does the music justice as music.

If not, whhat defines musical compatibility between two pieces?

I'd say that's up to the composer, depending on the type of narrative he wants to recreate. Let's say you want to build to a mid-piece finale, like you do in sonata form or like a symphony. In the film, there is no such mid-piece finale. So you recreate it by using a theme from somewhere else in the narrative. JURASSIC PARK did this wonderfully (I know many hate that presentation, but I think it's fantastic!). Or another example -- over the course of 4 tracks (similar to the first movement of a symphony), you want to go through a certain set of emotions. Maybe some calmness first, building up to a piece of horror, then ending on a more romantic idea before the second movement kicks in (4 next tracks). If there is nothing in the film that warrants such a structure, you need to create it by shuffling around a few pieces and maybe cutting out some that don't add to the experience. Ideally, these "movements" tie together to form a new, musical narrative.

As you can tell, I basically want film music to retain its unique trademarks (don't mess with the tracks themselves!), but import means from classical music or other instrumental 'concept' ideas to structure those tracks into a new, independent experience. That's what it's ALL about for me. It was how soundtracks were presented for 60 years before the advent of specialty labels, and thankfully it's still the dominant approach among commercial soundtracks.

[OneBuckFilms 319]

The music, when used in the film, really does start and stop in spurts, and sometimes you do get those oddball 6 second stingers and phrases.

The score is, after all, designed to work as part of the greater whole, along with sound effects, dialog, foley, and of course the visuals of the movie.

In that sense, I can see how some scores do have odd-sounding moments from a purely musical standpoint. Thor is correct, IMHO, on his observations.

My personal taste, however, tends to err on having more of the score than less, and with as few edits as feasible, as that is simply the original form of the music.

This is where Thor and I might differ on many releases.

I also have a great appreciation for a well put together album, film score or not.

This is why I both love the OST and Complete Recordings for the Lord of the Rings trilogy.

The Fellowship OST release is a fantastic listening experience, but the CR of Fellowship can get somewhat repetitive in places.

The CR, however, is prefereble personally because the repetitiveness is simply inherent in the nature of film scores, and it is such fantastic music, much of it not present on the OST.

I don't have the aversion Thor has to the jumpy, or somewhat schizophrenic listening experience, and enjoy discovering those little 30-second pieces of thematic/dramatic gold.

To me, it's about musical storytelling, and I have enjoyment and appreciation of both presentation methods.

There is room for both, and a need for both.

And as to which one works best for listening? It depends on the score. The variety, the development etc. of the music within the score.

[Richard Penna 3,687]

It comes down to length again, doesn't it? By creating mini symphonies, you're basically saying you want the emotions of the score in 20 minute bites.

I do that if they're the only cues I like from a score, but otherwise, why can't you just listen to the score like everyone else?

---

I often keep stingers and short cues, provided that I get something from them. Usually it's either a strong connection to that point in the film, or an awesome thematic/melodic statement.

And a few scores to which I'm close enough to want every note from.

[Thor 7,504]

It comes down to length again, doesn't it? By creating mini symphonies, you're basically saying you want the emotions of the score in 20 minute bites.

I do that if they're the only cues I like from a score, but otherwise, why can't you just listen to the score like everyone else?

And why can't you listen to it our way?

He, he.....there really is no 'right' or 'wrong' in this never-ending debate, unique as it is for the soundtrack phenomenon. As I've said above, the two approaches are equally legitimate. I might be on the extreme side in my hatred of the C&C, but we are a considerable group leaning towards the A&A preference, even inside our small niche. Do a similar thread as this over at maintitles.net, for example, and you'll see. A slightly more even balance there than here (although we will probably always be in the minority overall).

As long as they offer alternatives for both camps, all is really fine in this world. The problem occurs when only one alternative pops up. Early on in the thread, there were some good suggestions on 'compromise' solutions.

[filmmusic 1,828]

Just one question:

Thor, which cd of E.T. do you have?

the original 1982 album or the subsequent releases?

[Thor 7,504]

Just one question:

Thor, which cd of E.T. do you have?

the original 1982 album or the subsequent releases?

The original album and the release that came with the Gift Box DVD Set (I also had the first expanded disc for a period of time before I sold it). I only play the original album.

[filmmusic 1,828]

ok, thanks..

Well, too bad you're missing so much great music, but I can't change your mind..

[Thor 7,504]

ok, thanks..

Well, too bad you're missing so much great music, but I can't change your mind..

I'm not 'missing' it if what I have on the original album is so bloody brilliant, it's all the E.T. musical experience I need! To be fair, I've given the E.T. expansions several chances over the years, but I always find myself returning to the original MCA album.

Incidentally, it's also a fantastic score in the movie. I analyzed it in my master thesis.

[Richard Penna 3,687]

You need to give more expansions a chance. Do you never get tempted to add that one extra cue to the existing programme? Surely it's not that sacrosanct?

Compromise is a good option, but you have to remember that you can make a lot of music into a little, but not the other way round.

[Thor 7,504]

You need to give more expansions a chance. Do you never get tempted to add that one extra cue to the existing programme?

Not really, but I've tried out many expansions over the years. Heck, just for Williams I've tried JAWS, MIDWAY, THE FURY, CLOSE ENCOUNTERS, SUPERMAN, STAR WARSes, INDIANA JONESes, E.T., 1941, HOME ALONEs, HOW TO STEAL A MILLION and HOOK. In all of them, I've found myself selling them off and returning to the original. Except RAIDERS (the DCC release) and STAR WARSes (the Arista box CD's), which worked well in expanded format. Especially the latter.

Then there are those Williams soundtracks that only came out in C&C with no previous alternative. I've tried to make my own "crisis playlists" out of them, but rather unsuccessfully. The most challenging was JOHN GOLDFARB, which I couldn't even boil down to a listenable 22 minutes. But that's more because of the score itself.

[indy4 155]

lol, I'd love to see somebody attempt to make John Goldfarb a cohesive listening experience.

[Richard Penna 3,687]

Receiving a complete score is a 'crisis'?

Discovering a score release and realising none of your favourite cues are on it... that's a crisis.

[King Mark 3,631]

Here's my only post

-He's not wrong that sometimes the complete score too much. But in 99% of OST's (at least in Williams case) my favorite cues are missing so it's essential to have every note of the score released to have the POSSIBILITY of listening to all the cues

If your too lazy to make a playlist of burn a cdr with your preferred cue it's not my problem

End of discussion

[Wojo 2,453]

I think we all hate Thor because he makes those glasses look good.

[Thor 7,504]

lol, I'd love to see somebody attempt to make John Goldfarb a cohesive listening experience.

Indeed. I think the only way this could have worked as a listening experience is if Williams (or someone else) went into the recording studio and rerecorded it as singular, self-sufficient tracks, much like he did with the other comedy scores back in the 60's. The challenge is that even the tracks themselves are so "unstable", it's difficult to choose setpieces. And not a single track that stays calm/romantic/etc. throughout its duration -- as a change of pace. Here's the 23-minute program I boiled it down to:

Original Main Title (unused) 2:21

Wrong Way Lawrence 2:50

The Red Sea 2:03

The Ladies Enter 2:56

Iceberg Melts 4:20

Fawz Cha-Cha #1 (mono) 1:53

Jenny's Big Party / Snake Dance / End Title 4:39

John Goldfarb Please Come Home (single) 2:05

But even that was frustrating, so I eventually abandoned the project altogether.

[publicist 4,643]

Yeah, sometimes being a just a big fan is not enough.

[indy4 155]

lol, I'd love to see somebody attempt to make John Goldfarb a cohesive listening experience.

Indeed. I think the only way this could have worked as a listening experience is if Williams (or someone else) went into the recording studio and rerecorded it as singular, self-sufficient tracks, much like he did with the other comedy scores back in the 60's. The challenge is that even the tracks themselves are so "unstable", it's difficult to choose setpieces. And not a single track that stays calm/romantic/etc. throughout its duration -- as a change of pace. Here's the 23-minute program I boiled it down to:

Original Main Title (unused) 2:21

Wrong Way Lawrence 2:50

The Red Sea 2:03

The Ladies Enter 2:56

Iceberg Melts 4:20

Fawz Cha-Cha #1 (mono) 1:53

Jenny's Big Party / Snake Dance / End Title 4:39

John Goldfarb Please Come Home (single) 2:05

But even that was frustrating, so I eventually abandoned the project altogether.

No "King Fawz Feast?" That's my favorite track, and probably the best isolated listening experience. That and "The Music Train."

[Thor 7,504]

lol, I'd love to see somebody attempt to make John Goldfarb a cohesive listening experience.

Indeed. I think the only way this could have worked as a listening experience is if Williams (or someone else) went into the recording studio and rerecorded it as singular, self-sufficient tracks, much like he did with the other comedy scores back in the 60's. The challenge is that even the tracks themselves are so "unstable", it's difficult to choose setpieces. And not a single track that stays calm/romantic/etc. throughout its duration -- as a change of pace. Here's the 23-minute program I boiled it down to:

Original Main Title (unused) 2:21

Wrong Way Lawrence 2:50

The Red Sea 2:03

The Ladies Enter 2:56

Iceberg Melts 4:20

Fawz Cha-Cha #1 (mono) 1:53

Jenny's Big Party / Snake Dance / End Title 4:39

John Goldfarb Please Come Home (single) 2:05

But even that was frustrating, so I eventually abandoned the project altogether.

No "King Fawz Feast?" That's my favorite track, and probably the best isolated listening experience. That and "The Music Train."

Yeah, but I felt those tracks covered some of the sentiments in the party cue. My goal was to have the upbeat tracks interact with more calm material. That was challenging enough even with this 23-minute program. And I wanted to avoid the GALORE of grating mickey-mousing cues.

Look at me....I'm already talking like a record producer! LOL!

[Brónach 1,302]

You wanted to reimagine a different score than the one it is.

I'm speaking neutrally, because I haven't heard it.

[Thor 7,504]

You wanted to reimagine a different score than the one it is.

Definitely yes! Or rather, a different score experience, because JOHN GOLDFARB is among Williams' worst ever scores -- both in the film and outside. However, if Williams had made an album out of it at the time -- expanding on some themes, rearranging others, avoiding all the mickey-mousing stuff etc. -- then I think it would be reasonably good. There are definitely SEEDS in there that could be reworked to something fun to listen to. But to make a decent album out of the existing film tracks....an impossible task! If anyone has a suggestion, however, I'd love to hear it!

[Brónach 1,302]

How can you expand on themes if such a thing hasn't been composed and recorded?

[Thor 7,504]

How can you expand on themes if such a thing hasn't been composed and recorded?

I guess you'd have to go back to the score sheets, rearrange some of the themes with potential and then go back into the studio to rerecord it. Like Lalo Schifrin did with the relatively recent MANNIX CD. I think that's the only thing that would save this particular soundtrack. But the likelihood of that happening is zero.

[Richard Penna 3,687]

That doesn't strike you as a rather unreasonable demand for a composer? Take their work apart and put it back together with all the rubbish parts taken out?

I know Williams has done that a few times, but he's unusually strict in wanting a listening experience.

Trust me, there are lots of composers that I think suck at making albums, i.e.Thomas Snoozeman, but at least he allows me to select the cues I want. You need to learn to do the same, and I think you're overstating the effort it takes to make a listenable album.

[Thor 7,504]

That doesn't strike you as a rather unreasonable demand for a composer? Take their work apart and put it back together with all the rubbish parts taken out?

I know Williams has done that a few times, but he's unusually strict in wanting a listening experience.

Indeed he is. "My kind" of strict!

Trust me, there are lots of composers that I think suck at making albums, i.e.Thomas Snoozeman, but at least he allows me to select the cues I want. You need to learn to do the same, and I think you're overstating the effort it takes to make a listenable album.

And I think you're understating it. And that's where we are on that issue.

[indy4 155]

lol, I'd love to see somebody attempt to make John Goldfarb a cohesive listening experience.

Indeed. I think the only way this could have worked as a listening experience is if Williams (or someone else) went into the recording studio and rerecorded it as singular, self-sufficient tracks, much like he did with the other comedy scores back in the 60's. The challenge is that even the tracks themselves are so "unstable", it's difficult to choose setpieces. And not a single track that stays calm/romantic/etc. throughout its duration -- as a change of pace. Here's the 23-minute program I boiled it down to:

Original Main Title (unused) 2:21

Wrong Way Lawrence 2:50

The Red Sea 2:03

The Ladies Enter 2:56

Iceberg Melts 4:20

Fawz Cha-Cha #1 (mono) 1:53

Jenny's Big Party / Snake Dance / End Title 4:39

John Goldfarb Please Come Home (single) 2:05

But even that was frustrating, so I eventually abandoned the project altogether.

No "King Fawz Feast?" That's my favorite track, and probably the best isolated listening experience. That and "The Music Train."

Yeah, but I felt those tracks covered some of the sentiments in the party cue. My goal was to have the upbeat tracks interact with more calm material. That was challenging enough even with this 23-minute program. And I wanted to avoid the GALORE of grating mickey-mousing cues.

Look at me....I'm already talking like a record producer! LOL!

To each his own, but I find "King Fawz Feast" to be to precious a gem to leave out. Such a bizarre combination of Irish music and Arabic music.

[Thor 7,504]

I'll have to listen to it again. If it fits in anywhere in the playlist without being ''too much of the same", I'll add it. Thanks for the reminder.