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Justice League movie thread


Matt C
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3 hours ago, The Big Man said:

No-one else has mentioned the updated WB logo at the beginning.

 

Wasn't that in front of Tenet as well? They've been working on this rebrand for some time.

 

I have watched the Snyder Cut.

 

Shockingly, I feel like I must start by saying that I was certainly too hard on this before it came out. To be clear: I am not a fan of Snyder's previous efforts. Man of Steel was disappointing and Batman V Superman still remains one of the worst blockbuster films I have ever seen. But honestly, I was expecting something that would completely exhaust me even worse than BVS. I was also expecting it to be just as convoluted and ridiculous. Not to mention being a dark, gloomy, and depressing mess.

 

I am actually surprised to find that the Snyder Cut is actually decent. I don't know if it's good per say. Perhaps it might be (especially for a Zack Snyder DC Film), but I don't think it's great necessarily. I still have lots of problems with certain things. Here's my full thoughts (nested under spoiler tags for spoilers sake and mainly, to save precious page space. LOL)

 

HIGHLIGHTS OF THE GOOD (OR AT LEAST...THE BETTER)

Spoiler
  • Absolutely, 100%, this is the better movie. This is the best way to watch Justice League. After seeing this, Joss Whedon's iteration is even more generic as hell and (at best) very misguided. If he legitimately came in and saw anything remotely resembling the cut we have now (in a significantly rougher form) and thought his changes were the best way to release it then I have lost a ton of respect for him as a creative (We'll get more into this later). I had already lost respect for him as a person, but still thought he could produce some good creative work, but god damn. He butchered the film to hell and removed any of the heart and soul it had. To be fair, I imagine studio interference had something to do with it as well. I'm sure without Snyder being there and butting heads they took a ton of opportunities to shape it however they wanted as a company.
  • The run time is daunting, yes, and leaked scenes did not look promising as far as pacing goes, but I actually found this final product to be pretty well paced (with a few exceptions). I certainly didn't feel exhausted like I did with BvS and I felt like most of the added scenes were relevant and important to the characters and plot. 
  • Cyborg. This gets it's own point. In Whedon's version I felt almost no sense of connection or character when it came to Cyborg. I didn't really get what he was all about and he is completely glossed over in the Whedon cut. Like WOW. Zack Snyder was correct when he initially called Cyborg the heart of the film back in 2016 or 2017. That heart that WB so desperately wanted in order to compete with Marvel and lighten the film up, really comes out with Cyborg's character. If we got nothing else in this cut and only added back in all the Cyborg related scenes it would've helped the movie immensley. I greatly question what the hell any of those people were thinking reducing Cyborg's role down as much as they did.
  • Aquaman's story isn't perfectly done in the film, but it seems like he shows a lot more humanity in this version. Whedon really amped up the "dude bro" aspect of him in his version.
  • Steppenwolf. Not only does he look more intimidating, but the swap of actors make him sound more intimidating. Plus, he's a bit more developed as well. 
  • The Visual Effects (for the most part). The major effects problems from the Whedon version are pretty much resolved in this one. No stupid CGI mouth for Superman, Steppenwolf rivals Thanos in well-done effects on a technical level, and the final act of the film also is an extreme improvment over Whedon's version. Whedon lightened up the final act too much and the budget clearly wouldn't allow for proper re-rendering or compositing. Many shots that are eye-rollingly bad in Whedon's look much better here. Even Aquaman surfing through a building doesn't look quite as goofy. It still is, but it looks better done.
  • The Music. This surprised me too. Junkie's score is quite nice for the most part. It's more heroic than I expected and even has some nice heartfelt moments. It's certainly more memorable than Elfman's in this case. Plus, as a fan of the National Treasure scores, I actually dug the sort of...rock and roll sound of some of the action cues (See "We Do This Together" and "And the Lion-Earth Did Roar, Pt. 1"). I also like the development of Wonder Woman's sound. Including the vocals is a good choice and gives her something other than just her riff. It's not really a new theme for her as it seems to be representative of the Amazon's as a whole. One thing that I like a lot is that Junkie focuses a lot more on the more Clark Kent oriented theme, which is the only good thing I liked about Man of Steel. He even brings this idea to a more heroic place in "Superman Rising, Pt. 2 / Immovable". This is probably the best arrangement of this theme I've heard and actually feels worthy of the character. I have not listened to the score in it's entirety separately yet, but I believe I recall hearing some good Flash material ("At the Speed of Force") and the new Justice League theme is pretty decent as used in the film as well.
  • The Tone. I don't think everyone feels this way, but I found the tone to be much more tolerable, compared to BvS and even Man of Steel. I've said before that I don't mind his style, I just mind the intense doom and gloom plaguing DC. I'm not asking for Marvel, which is what DC thought when everyone complained about BvS. This is pretty close to what I would've preferred. There's a lot more hope, a sense of togetherness, etc. It takes these overly epic look and feel that Snyder has given these movies and puts big feelings behind it. There's more perseverance and hope in this film than in all the earlier films in this DC series combined.

 

THE NOT SO GOOD

Spoiler
  • I was mildly apprehensive about this before hand hearing that the film would end on a cliffhanger (huge is a massive overstatement) and now seeing it...it's not bad, but it really doesn't need to be in the film. The added "Knightmare" sequence at the end is utterly inconsequential and was not needed. Far too much Joker, even if he is better than he was in Suicide Squad. It doesn't hurt the film, but it doesn't add anything either. It's a nice nod to what could've been for the fans of his, but you can cut it out of the film without missing a thing.
  • Martain Manhunter. I think this actually hurts the film a bit. The scene between Martha and Lois is actually a pretty decent scene and is certainly an improvment over the bonding scene the two had in Whedon's version. But having that scene end with a twist that it's actually Martain Manhunter adds nothing and diminishes the scene we just saw. We've never seen this character before, he has no relevance to the plot, and he doesn't appear again until the "cliffhanger" at the end...If I had one main complaint about the film and could cut anything from it. It would be his two scenes.
  • Also Steppenwolf. While he looks better here than he did in Whedon's...I'm still not a fan of the weird metal transformer armor. I think they could've gone a bit more traditional with his armor and still kept some of the sharpness and movement they seemed to like about this design.
  • The Visual Effects (in some areas). The main effect that really stands out as awful is the odd effect of Darkseid and that other dude looking like they're formed out of carbonite or something. It does not look good at all. There are also a couple of shots that look a bit too greenscreened. Something about the depth of field throughs me off. It's totally random which shots it is, but most of the time the background just look far blurier than it would if it was shot in a real space. It's a different problem than the Joss Whedon version where the lighting doesn't even match properly. I'm willing to give it some slack though considering this was only given as little as absolutely necessary and no more than that. Most of the other effects in the film are pretty good.
  • The Flash and Wonder Woman. Whedon was more blatant and cringey about it in his version with the weird joke of Flash landing on Wonder Woman, but there's a couple of one off little lines that make the Flash seem creepy towards Wonder Woman. Not the biggest deal, but still weird and unecessary.
  • The Flash and Iris West. Again, Flash comes off a bit creepy here as well. Like, seriously? You're gonna play with her hair while you should just be saving her damn life from the car accident? And...while it's nice to see the scene finally completed and in the film...this scene adds nothing to the movie. It is never really mentioned again either. You can cut it out and it wouldn't make a difference to the plot. It's just fun to see those two characters meet I suppose.
  • Willem Dafoe - I heard about him being cut from the film a few years ago and honestly...I get why. He's only in 2 or 3 scenes and doesn't contribute much other than Aquaman's costume, but he could've easily just had it already with no real explanation needed. I like him as an actor, but he didn't have much to do when he's on-screen and it's still not even really explained who he is

 

THE UNFIXABLE

Spoiler

This feels like a movie that would've been cool and effective had it occurred after a couple more films. There is an expectation that I should feel sad that Superman is dead...because it's Superman. There is an expectation that Lois should feel sad about his death because...it's Lois Lane and they're a thing. etc etc. You get the idea. However, there is simply not enough development with those characters and this set of films to warrant feeling these things. Lois and Clark meet in Man of Steel. They spend most of Batman V Superman apart and we're supposed to believe that the fierce Lois Lane is so broken up about it that she can't return to work? To the audience it's as if they've just really started having a relationship and the movie asks us to feel as though they've been together forever. This version of the film does do a better job at making you feel for these characters and developing them due to the longer run time and being overall less doom and gloom, but it could've been far better had DC not tried to rush everything.

 

Plus, the villains still feel a bit generic. I don't care or understand their motives. I'm not really clear on where the hell these boxes came from or how they came to be. It's also not clear why they're afraid of Kryptonians, but whatever.

 

All that being said, this is probably the best Snyder DC film now. I certainly enjoyed it the most of his DC Films.

 

I'm currently working on a comparison post of the two versions of the film, but it's tough. There's a different structure and quite a few plot changes in Whedon's version, but I'll do my best.

 

14 minutes ago, bruce marshall said:

There are scenes in that I don't remember .i guess I didn't watch the whole thing.

 

Did you watch the Theatrical Version or the Ultimate Edition? Lol.

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So what's on the plan for the DCEU now? Does this shake it up and will WB allow Snyder to continue his lead on this enterprise? Now that there are two fundamentally different versions of JL out there, which one will future films in this franchise actually follow and regard as "canon"?

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Just now, The Big Man said:

So what's on the plan for the DCEU now? Does this shake it up and will WB allow Snyder to continue his lead on this enterprise? Now that there are two fundamentally different versions of JL out there, which one will future films in this franchise actually follow and regard as "canon"?

 

As far as I've heard, a condition to releasing the Snyder Cut was that it can not be considered canon. WB is sticking with Whedon's version.

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47 minutes ago, TSMefford said:

 

Wasn't that in front of Tenet as well? They've been working on this rebrand for some time.

 

I have watched the Snyder Cut.

 

Shockingly, I feel like I must start by saying that I was certainly too hard on this before it came out. To be clear: I am not a fan of Snyder's previous efforts. Man of Steel was disappointing and Batman V Superman still remains one of the worst blockbuster films I have ever seen. But honestly, I was expecting something that would completely exhaust me even worse than BVS. I was also expecting it to be just as convoluted and ridiculous. Not to mention being a dark, gloomy, and depressing mess.

 

I am actually surprised to find that the Snyder Cut is actually decent. I don't know if it's good per say. Perhaps it might be (especially for a Zack Snyder DC Film), but I don't think it's great necessarily. I still have lots of problems with certain things. Here's my full thoughts (nested under spoiler tags for spoilers sake and mainly, to save precious page space. LOL)

 

HIGHLIGHTS OF THE GOOD (OR AT LEAST...THE BETTER)

  Reveal hidden contents

 

THE NOT SO GOOD

  Reveal hidden contents

 

THE UNFIXABLE

  Reveal hidden contents

 

All that being said, this is probably the best Snyder DC film now. I certainly enjoyed it the most of his DC Films.

 

I'm currently working on a comparison post of the two versions of the film, but it's tough. There's a different structure and quite a few plot changes in Whedon's version, but I'll do my best.

 

 

Did you watch the Theatrical Version or the Ultimate Edition? Lol.

The version that played on HBO

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42 minutes ago, TSMefford said:

 

As far as I've heard, a condition to releasing the Snyder Cut was that it can not be considered canon. WB is sticking with Whedon's version.

 

So they're stubbornly sticking with the widely despised version? Smart move, WB.

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There’s no answer to that question yet. It all depends on reviews and revenue. So far, Snyder’s cut is knocking it out of the park

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1 hour ago, bruce marshall said:

The version that played on HBO


Yeah that’s been on a couple of things at this point. WB changed up there logo. I hate it.

45 minutes ago, bondo said:

There’s no answer to that question yet. It all depends on reviews and revenue. So far, Snyder’s cut is knocking it out of the park


In my mind it’s been answered already. Whedon’s is stupidly the canon version.
 

It would be quite a day for the studio to admit they were wrong.

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It's ponderous, often poorly paced, the storytelling is really clunky. But still a definite improvement regardless of all of that. I didn't feel depressed watching it which is the biggest surprise. But god, why does it need to be 4 hours long. It feels more like an assembly cut than it does as a real film.

 

Oh and I don't want to bash the man or anything. It's just not my cup of tea. Just to be clear.

 

I suppose the bottom line is that he managed to prove his point.

 

Karol

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14 minutes ago, HunterTech said:

I mean, this version finally being released and getting relatively solid feedback feels plenty enough like WB basically admitting they were wrong :P

 

Eh. I don't really think they give a shit about any of this. They're making money for their streaming platform.

 

10 minutes ago, crocodile said:

But god, why does it need to be 4 hours long. It feels more like an assembly cut than it does as a real film.

 

While I do think there are some minor scenes and subplots that could've been removed, I really only think (at least after the initial watch) that removing what I deem to be unnecessary scenes would probably only make a 15 minute dent in the film. 4 hours doesn't necessarily make it too long. The extended Return of the King is an incredible film and it runs at 3 hours and 48 minutes. Not saying the Snyder Cut is anywhere near as good, but just making a point that the length of something shouldn't really be an automatic negative. As someone who thought Batman V Superman felt obscenely long, I was actually pleasantly surprised by the pacing so I'll disagree. Sure there's some moments that could've been tightened, but I think this certainly felt better than an assembly.

 

And again perhaps it's getting some artificial elevation because of what we got from Whedon, I do acknowledge that. But I honestly feel like the runtime was well-spent, properly fleshing out all these new characters and making them feel like more than some new random heroes. Personally, I have never read the comics and was not remotely aware of Cyborg, Flash, or Aquaman's origins in any way. This doesn't quite fully cover those bases, but I feel like I get those characters far more than Whedon was able to convey. Cyborg got absolutely screwed over by Whedon's cut, so the 4 hours is worth it just for all his new material in my mind.

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2 minutes ago, crocodile said:

Half of it is in slow motion so if you speed it up it might be 150 minutes or so. ;)

 

Karol

 

Haha. I can agree with that. Zack uses a lot of slow-mo for an average length film so there was like twice as much in this one. LOL

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Lotr has a good ammount of slow mo too...

 

Im surprised that the flash jokes and personality are not a thing from marvel's wheddon but from snyder all along.

 

The soundtrack is horrendous really... But more consistent with the previous material. The new amazon wailing woman is an awful cliche really, that comes out of nowhere after several films with wonderwoman....

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53 minutes ago, Luke Skywalker said:

Im surprised that the flash jokes and personality are not a thing from marvel's wheddon but from snyder all along.

 

Well. Some of it is Snyder. Whedon reshot a lot of stuff (Working on a more detailed breakdown now) and most of Whedon's material is significantly worse I find.

 

53 minutes ago, Luke Skywalker said:

The new amazon wailing woman is an awful cliche really, that comes out of nowhere after several films with wonderwoman....

 

You know, the very first time it appears in the film, I felt it was too much, but every time after that I was fine with. Almost like that moment needed to be a little subtler or build to that full vocal idea. I didn't end up having a problem with it after that. Personally, these DC films, now including the Snyder Cut have more thematic continuity than the Marvel Universe. I can forgive adding a new motif for the Amazons simply because I am tired of her cello riff over and over again. 

 

In other news.

 

Let's talk a bit of comparison and contrast. This is kind of rough and mostly focuses on what ended up being confirmed changes by Whedon.

 

OVERALL
Whedon very much "Marvelified" this film. Honestly the result is the worst of the worst when it comes to Marvel tropes. Even when Marvel has done them, they've accomplished it far better. Whedon added a ton of unnecessary, poorly dubbed one-liners at nearly every opportunity. He is also entirely responsible for the Parademon tropes, adding the plot device of them feeding on fear as well as adding the weird alarm sound thing that pisses them off. Whedon also added his tried and true "team in-fighting" scenes to...create fake drama? To give the team something to work through? I don't know. He uses this not once, but twice in this one film.

 

Almost no scene remains untouched by the reshoots. Either he has completely reshot scenes or he's gone back and needlessly added lines. In some cases the reshoots were "necessary" to condense backstory or accommodate plot changes that he inevitably had to make in order to fulfill the studio requirements, but there's a pretty significant amount of useless crap that could've been cut in favor of better material that they clearly had.


MAIN CHANGES BY WHEDON

Spoiler

 

  • Whedon gives Bruce a lot more knowledge of the Mother Boxes and Parademons right off the bat, adding things like Luthor's Notes and the fight scene with the Parademon in the opening. Snyder's Cut keeps him in the dark more until the information is uncovered by Diana who then reveals it to Bruce.
  • Whedon also elevates the Parademons roll in the story by giving them the "feeding on fear" plot device, this becomes integral to the final act.
  • The slow-motion "World without Superman" montage in mostly an addition by Whedon featuring some Snyder scenes greatly condensed or repurposed.
  • Starting with the Wonder Woman rescue scene the film tones down the violence a lot. It's far less brutal and toned down. This is true for most of the action scenes.
  • Because of Bruce's knowledge of the Mother Boxes beforehand, references to them are added throughout the film in various scenes.
  • Bruce and Alfred on the plane is completely reshot in Whedon's version. This includes references to a tracking device in Aquaman's coat (plus a joke about it maybe not being his coat), Motherboxes, condensing Barry's backstory into a brief for Bruce, condensing Victor Stone's backstory into a brief, Wind-Up Penguins, and the beginning of Alfred shipping Bruce and Diana. Snyder is more focused on his promise to Superman as his motivation and them trying to ID Barry Allen specifically.
  • Barry Allen having a hard time with that guy in line at the prison lobby was added by Whedon as was the planted guard there that informs Bruce Wayne of Barry's whereabouts. It feels unnecessary because they know his Dad is in prison (it's literally mentioned it one of the reshot scenes before this) and could easily figure out which one, but they don't get a location until the guard tells them he's there. Doesn't make much sense.
  • Cyborg's backstory is condensed to a couple of mere sentences. His character and his relationship with his Dad are severely truncated. Honestly this approach from Whedon really makes Cyborg feel so much less human and the struggle with his Dad feels so much more surface level. Cyborg and his father are far more integral to the central plot in Snyder's version. There's a reason why Snyder called Cyborg the heart of the film way back when.
  • Whedon has a tendency is this film to make the characters far more incompetent. For example, during the Themescera fight they "seal the chamber" only to have Steppenwolf burst his way through the wall moments later with seemingly no Amazon from inside following him (even though they're comically shooting arrows past him as he exits). It may be a bit dramatic in Snyder's, but it makes way more sense. This trend continues in multiple scenes.
  • Whedon changed Lois' story quite a bit as evidenced by the reshot scene with Martha. Lois has opted to go back to work, even though her passion isn't really in it.
  • Eventually, we get to the infamous family that lives near Steppenwolf's base he set up. These scenes are extremely unnecessary. They break the flow and take screentime away from the characters we're trying to focus on. They add nothing to the story but to have those rescue moments in the final battle.
  • Steppenwolf seems to be operating much more generically and independently in Whedon's version, only really giving one throwaway mention of Darkseid, even barely mentioning his exile. While we're on Steppenwolf, Whedon completely changed his look and even his voice, not sure if it's a different actor, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was. I don't particularly like Snyder's design, I think the transformers armour is silly in a different way, but he certainly comes across a little mmore developed and significantly more intimidating in the Snyder Cut. The VFX on him are far better as well. This is a big downgrade in the Whedon version, where even he has cheesy one-liners.
  • The scene where the team comes up with the idea to resurrect Superman is the first occurance of the "in-fighting" that Whedon likes to do. Everyone is far more of an asshole in Whedon's version, with him also making Bruce and Diana butt heads pretty significantly, which is weirdly conflicting with the seemingly shipping them to be a potential romantic thing as well. Bruce even brings up Steve Trevor causing Diana to shove him. Steve is not mentioned in Snyder's Cut. Whedon also adds Bruce using Lois as a back up plan. This was not planned in the Snyder Cut. The costumes were pointlessly changed for this scene as well.
  • Whedon shortens the break-in to Star Labs to resurrect Superman significantly. Removing Cyborg's dad altogether and the team entering a seemingly abandoned lab. He also adds some weird timing stipulation where the Flash has to charge the box right as it hits the water. Snyder's Cut goes more into Flash's power and sets up a cool payoff for the final battle. Besides this Superman's resurrection is pretty similar.
  • Due to Whedon removing the Star Labs scenes with Cyborg's Dad he does not sacrifice himself and die in Whedon's version. There's even a scene with him alive and well at the end of the film.
  • We get more "in-fighting" with the team after losing the third box. Aquaman is notably agressive and mistrusting of Cyborg, implying he is untrustworthy and potentially working for the Mother Boxes. A huge flip from the dynamic in the Snyder Cut at this point in the film.
  • Whedon makes Superman weird and goofy. No one asked for that per say.
  • The final act is very oversimplified. The team simply needs to break in, Cyborg needs to tinker with the Mother Boxes with no help from Flash, and Steppenwolf needs to be defeated. Oh, and there's those civillians that Whedon added that need to be saved. It's, at it's core, similar enough, but the stakes feel very low and the tone is quite goofy with tons of added one-liners and quips, plus the civilian scenes. And to pay off the "feeding on fear" plot device. Steppenwolf becomes afraid and is swarmed by Parademons vs Snyder's version where the team brutally destroys him, with Wonder Woman decapitating him before sending him back to Darksied.
  • Final monologue is given by Lois in Whedon's version and not by Dr. Stone via tape recording.
  • Added scene with Superman and Flash doing a race
  • Lex Luthor's ask during the post-credits scene is to start a "League of their own" vs Snyder's where he is simply giving him Batman's true identity.

 

 

Having just combed through the Theatrical Cut of Justice League, I isolated any full scenes that have now been confirmed to be things that Whedon added or reshot to see how much it accounted for in the runtime.

 

Whedon completely reshot and added approximately 40 minutes of the final runtime. That time does not include lines or additions that were added to existing Snyder scenes. I imagine that would increase the time quite a bit, but honestly: Out of a two hour movie, you're talking about nearly half of it when you roughly account for everything he added. 

 

I may go more in-depth, but main point. I think Whedon and Warner Brothers really were quite a determent to this film and I am happy Snyder got to release what is clearly and easily a better film. Whedon / WB added tons of unnecessary shit, lines, etc. on top of really losing the emotional core of the story. Further more, Whedon created absolutely ridiculous continuity problems, not only between Snyder footage and his own, but even within his own completely reshot scenes, and I'm talking about things that absolutely shouldn't have been hard to get right like Aquaman gaining and losing a row of triangles on his body tattoos from shot to shot or Wonder Woman spawning a random shawl for one scene when she didn't have it on immediately prior and then it's never seen again.

To also combining Bruce Wayne's airplane hangar and the Batcave. You're telling me that the team takes an elevator down several floors, arrives in the Batcave, says it's the Batcave and then we can see windows with daylight streaming through them in the background?

 

The theatrical version truly is hot garbage, especially after seeing the Snyder Cut. Sure it's not the most mind-blowing film ever and it doesn't fix every problem, but it is truly one hell of an improvement.

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I’m surprised how many people are actually watching this. 
 

The “good” reviews are really because the Whedon version was so bad and this one apparently isn’t as bad as it could have been. 
 

I wish the reviews had been harsher to nip this shit in the bud. Every time fans don’t like a film there’s going to be a petition to have it changed in someone and studios might actually have to listen. 

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Its a shame elfman did not went completely gun-ho using his batman theme and williams superman themes, it would have been an interesting experiment of how that music still fits the characters.

 

In the end we also have a holkenborg zimmer universe score, so everyone happy.

 

 

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Just watched it last night. It was as good as Man of Steel and better than the dreck that was Batman v Superman. 

 

The script is not good and it has some atrocious dialogues, but it is well directed by Snyder, who is able to create some epic shots here and there. It's more style than substance, actually. 

 

Watching this movie, it becomes clear that WB panicked for no reason when they took the movie out of Snyder's hands and delivered it to Whedon. There's an okay 2h40 super-hero movie in amidst this 4 hour epic that, if it was released in theaters back in 2017, it would've gotten decent reviews and box office.

 

Also, I don't know why Snyder even bothered to include "cliffhangers" for the next movies that won't happen. Once he saw that WB is no interested in a sequel in this same universe, with a few changes this could've had a more satisfatory ending. 

 

Anyway, it's an okay movie. If you don't mind that the movie is more style and substance and have 4 hours of your time to spend with people in tights, you can watch it without any problem.

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I think the main thing about this film for me is that at least it feels coherent and it makes everything that came before it sort of make more sense. All his previous films always felt to me like 2.5 hour montage sequences with little or no emotional attachment from the viewer (or me anyway). All I got from those was a headache. But here characters have story arcs, as basic as they are. It's nothing remarkable, it's still an average film. But it feels at least like Snyder is in control of his storytelling more and it's surprisingly non-gloomy. And Superman feels like an actual Superman too. And Snyder's vision of superheroes feels clearer too. He's not really preoccupied with their humanity or flaws. He has a grander mythological approach and it is valid too.

 

Nothing against Whedon or Elfman, they probably did what was asked from them. But that version was embarrassing. So yeah, this should have been the film all along. When Zimmer's Superman themes appears as he arrives during the final battle it does seem right.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing the next two sequels. I was expecting the route the would take and it turns out that was actually what they were going for.

 

Karol

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My fanboy side was very happy with the Green Lantern cameo (despite it is A Green Lantern, not THE Green Lantern). It was great to know that the Green Lantern Corps exist in a big, sprawling cinematic DC Universe, even though his scene is short.

 

And the movie has another classic character from the comics that had never appeared in a movie, whose participation was great:

Spoiler

Martian Manhunter, aka J'onn J'onnz

 

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3 hours ago, Edmilson said:

And the movie has another classic character from the comics that had never appeared in a movie, whose participation was great:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Funny. I think that that characters inclusion made the movie worse and was entirely unneccessary:

Spoiler

To have that pretty decent scene with Lois and Martha that clearly conveys their emotions...and then to have that not be Martha...that was dumb. Chop off the transformation and lose the scene at the end and you change nothing about the film. Get him out of the film.

 

That's if I was calling the shots that is. This is Snyder's film and that's what he wanted to do.

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There was discussion about this earlier, but I am still fascinated by the decision to release the movie in 4:3.


I grabbed a couple of screenshots from the trailer comparison. I though it might be fun to compare.

 

I still don’t understand the reason behind releasing this in IMAX-format since the 2021 rerelease was always intended for home distribution. To me, looking at the ZS images - unless you’d be in an actual IMAX Theatre - it makes each shot seem more narrow in scope.

 

Snyder has been quoted saying that “Superheroes tend to be, as figures, they tend to be less horizontal. Maybe Superman when he's flying. But when he's standing, he's more of a vertical. Everything is composed and shot that way, and a lot of the restoration is sort of trying to put that back.” 

 

Less horizontal? As opposed to what? Why would superheroes be less horizontal than any other cinematic characters throughout history? Do people look at The Godfather, Alien, Jurassic Park, Shawshank Redemption, The Dark Knight or Lord Of The Rings and go “these characters sure are vertical, I wish the movie wasn’t widescreen”?

 

The argument that we’re getting more picture, not less, might be correct but what does it really add and at what cost? Looking at these pictures, I have the feeling that the information added on the top/bottom doesn’t really help the visual story telling in any way. If anything it’s mostly pointless empty skies, walls and blurry backgrounds - and I’d gladly sacrifice that for a more widescreen presentation.

 

But I know that the format has its defenders, even if presented on a 16:9 television. But, apart from the argument that “that’s how the filmmaker intended it” or that we should respect the “artistic vision”, are there any arguments to why this would be better?

 

Does anyone actually look at these comparisons and think, “yeah, the square one is better”? Which shot?

 

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I reckon the anti-4:3 sentiment is fueled more from people's perception that it makes films look like a cheap 80s TV format as if they're watching Murder... She Wrote and they have a weird personal vendetta towards it because so many anamorphic films were panned and scanned to conform to the home format – therefore they think everything meant for 4:3 was "cropped" somehow.

 

But who decided widescreen was more "cinematic"? People had been viewing films in the Academy Ratio for about 30-40 years before the introduction of CinemaScope or Cinerama, so why isn't 4:3 simply accepted as a format as valid as any other? I probably answered my own question in my first par, but I'm interested in people's take on the sociological angle on this.

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12 minutes ago, The Big Man said:

I probably answered my own question in my first par, but I'm interested in people's take on the sociological angle on this.

 

Great response. I'm curious about this as well. I'm away at the moment now and unable to do another long response, but I'd love to delve into this more too.

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38 minutes ago, The Big Man said:

I wonder if Joss Whedon has watched Snyder's cut yet. Or if he ever will.

 

Whedon probably would've seen it in a rough form when he signed onto the film and began working with it. He had to know what to cut and reshoot and the "problems" he was solving. 

 

I highly doubt he'll watch the new version. Same way I highly doubt Snyder will ever watch Whedon's version.

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https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/entertainment/duncan-lay-warner-bros-must-now-rewrite-justice-league-history/news-story/eb08be123f20058fad3578f664e4da93

 

So the fan demand for reviving the Snyderverse begins. Will WB cave and see the incentive or will the suits stubbornly defend the Whedon cut, even though his film is a deadend and he's toxic as fuck now?

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Alright, after having watched both versions back to back, here's a scene-by-scene comparison unless someone else has already done it yet. (Spoilers of course if you haven't seen the Snyder Cut yet.)

 

Notes:

  • Scenes highlighted in bold are new scenes added by Whedon
  • Scenes highlighted in italics are scenes shot by Zack Snyder, but heavily rewritten and edited in the Whedon Cut

 

Spoiler

 

 

Whedon Cut

Snyder Cut

DC and Warner Bros. logos

DC and Warner Bros. logos

Two kids interview Superman at the scene for their podcast. Shot on cellphone footage.

Superman’s death reactivates the Mother Boxes

Batman fighting a Parademon on a rooftop.

Bruce goes to an Icelandic village to recruit Aquaman, but he refuses

Opening credits/montage of a world without Superman. Largely comprised of old and new footage.

Martha moves away after the bank forecloses the Kent farm.

Wonder Woman stops a terrorist group holding a group of schoolchildren hostage

Bruce and Alfred reconvene on an airstrip

Bruce goes to an Icelandic village to recruit Aquaman, but he refuses

Lois Lane visits Heroes Park in the rain

Bruce and Alfred fly back to Gotham in a jet. (Different from the Snyder Cut)

Wonder Woman stops a terrorist group holding a group of schoolchildren hostage

Barry Allen waiting in line

Steppenwolf steals the Mother Box from the Amazonians

Barry visits his dad in prison.

Steppenwolf creates a base in an abandoned nuclear power plant.

Silas leaves STAR Labs for the night and talks to a janitor.

Bruce and Alfred fly back to Gotham in a jet.

Silas talks with Cyborg in a darkened apartment

Silas leaves STAR Labs for the night and talks to a janitor. The janitor is then attacked by a Parademon.

At STAR Labs, a janitor is attacked by a Parademon.

Hippolyta sends a warning to Diana through a flaming arrow. Diana sees the warning shot as a temple in flames on the news.

Steppenwolf steals the Mother Box from the Amazonians

A security guard asks Silas about the Mother Box the next morning at S.T.A.R. Labs

Hippolyta sends a warning to Diana through a flaming arrow. Diana sees the warning shot as a temple in flames on the news.

Silas talks with Cyborg in a darkened apartment

Lois and Martha talking about Clark at the Daily Planet

Diana goes the temple and sees cave paintings of Darkseid

Cyborg hacks into Bruce’s computers

Aquaman saves a man from drowning at sea during a thunderstorm. He swims to Atlantis.

Diana meets with Bruce in the Bat Cave. Diana tells Bruce about the Invasion of Earth as they walk by a lake (Darkseid is replaced with Steppenwolf)

Aquaman swims to King Arthur’s throne. Vulko demands he takes his rightful place as king, but Arthur refuses.

Bruce recruits Barry.

Steppenwolf talks with DeSaad

As Diana does research on Cyborg, he hacks into the computer and asks to speak with her. Diana and Cyborg meet.

Diana meets with Bruce in the Bat Cave. Diana tells Bruce about the Invasion of Earth.

Aquaman saves a man from drowning at sea during a thunderstorm. He swims to Atlantis.

Barry Allen saves Iris West from an oncoming car crash

Steppenwolf attacks Atlantis and steals the Mother Box. Afterwards, Arthur and Mera talk about his mother.

Steppenwolf interrogates a group of Atlanteans on the location of their Mother Box.

Steppenwolf creates a base in a remote village around an abandoned nuclear power plant in Russia.

Lois in her apartment with Clark’s belongings

Silas goes back to the apartment and is kidnapped by a Parademon

Bruce and Diana watch surveillance footage of Arthur, Barry and Cyborg from Lex’s servers

James Gordon talks with another officer about the Parademon kidnappings

Cyborg remembers his past life playing football in college. He and Elinore get in a car accident. Elinore does not survive, and Victor is left physically disabled. In the present, Cyborg listens to a recording by Silas, telling him what he can achieve through his cybernetics. A Parademon appears and stalks the apartment for the Mother Box but leaves

Bruce, Barry and Diana reconvene on an airstrip. They see the Bat Signal in the sky.

Barry visits his dad in prison.

Cyborg finds the apartment ransacked. He looks out the window and sees the Bat Signal.

Bruce recruits Barry.

Jim Gordon meets with Batman, Wonder Woman, Cyborg and The Flash on a rooftop.

As Diana does research on Cyborg, he hacks into the computer and asks to speak with her. Diana and Cyborg meet. Cyborg flies away and buries the Mother Box in his and Elinore’s grave.

Underground harbor facility fight

Silas and Ryan Choi talk about Batman and the Mother Box

The group reconvene back on the surface

Silas goes back to the apartment and is kidnapped by a Parademon

The group go back to the Bat Cave and discuss the origins of the Mother Box. Bruce suggests they should use it to resurrect Superman, but he and Diana have an argument over it.

James Gordon talks with another officer about the Parademon kidnappings

Bruce and Alfred debate whether resurrecting Superman is a good idea.

Bruce, Barry and Diana reconvene on an airstrip.

Barry and Victor exhume Clark’s grave.

Steppenwolf attacks Atlantis and steals the Mother Box. Afterwards, Arthur and Mera talk about his mother.

The group sneak into STAR Labs base and the Kryptonian ship.

Cyborg finds the apartment ransacked

Superman is resurrected.

Steppenwolf combines two of the Mother Boxes together, creating a shield around the nuclear power plant.

Battle in Heroes Park. Lois appears, calming Superman down.

Jim Gordon meets with Batman, Wonder Woman, Cyborg and The Flash on a rooftop.

Steppenwolf takes the third Mother Box as they stand around and watch.

Underground harbor facility fight

Clark and Lois go back to the Kent farm.

Steppenwolf has a vision like Darkseid’s invasion of Earth.

The team discuss how to find Steppenwolf.

The group reconvene back on the surface

Bruce and Diana apologize to each other.

Steppenwolf tells DaSeed and Darkseid that the Anti-Life Equation is on Earth.

Clark and Lois in the cornfield. Martha arrives.

The team go back to the Bat Cave and discuss the origins of the Mother Box. Cyborg shows them a simulation of its discovery in WWII and scientists further research on it.

Steppenwolf synchronizes the Mother Boxes, creating a shield around the village.

Martha visits Lois and tells her move past her grief. After leaving, she reveals that she is Calvin Swanwick/Martian Manhunter in disguise.

The team finds Steppenwolf’s base and depart in the Flying Fox.

The team debate whether they should use the Mother Box to resurrect Superman.

Aquaman admits his feelings before realizing he is sitting on the Lasso of Truth

Barry and Victor exhume Clark’s grave. Meanwhile, Arthur and Diana talk.

Batman flies into the base and destroys the shield

Bruce and Alfred discuss whether to bring Superman back to life or why Bruce thinks the team might not be enough.

Batman distracts the Parademons using the sonar in the Batmobile.

The group sneak into STAR Labs base and the Kryptonian ship with help from Silas. Meanwhile, Lois goes to Heroes Park.

The team fights through the horde of Parademons

Superman is resurrected. Cyborg has a vision of future events.

Wonder Woman and Aquaman fight Steppenwolf while Cyborg tries to separate the Mother Boxes, but to no avail. Superman arrives just in time and effortlessly defeats Steppenwolf.

Battle in Heroes Park. Lois appears, calming Superman down.

 

Flash and Superman save the civilians from the root-like structures

Steppenwolf arrives to try and take the Mother Box. Silas sacrifices himself.

Clark and Lois go back to the Kent farm.

Superman and Cyborg separate the Mother Boxes.

The group go to the Batcave and use thermal scanners to find Steppenwolf’s base.

They defeat Steppenwolf, who, overcome with fear, is attacked by his Parademons as they get teleported away in a boom tube.

Clark and Lois in the cornfield. Martha arrives.

Epilogue:

  • Bruce buys back the Kent farm for Clark
  • Barry tells his dad he has gotten a job at the Central City police department
  • Lois goes back to work at the Daily Planet and writes a story about hope (continued in voiceover throughout)
  • Bruce, Diana and Alfred set up a base at the former Wayne Manor
  • Cyborg at STAR Labs enhancing his cybernetics with Silas
  • Aquaman swimming in the sea
  • The Flash running
  • Wonder Woman talking to children after stopping a heist
  • Batman getting in the Batwing
  • Clark resumes his job as a reporter

Bruce tells Diana about his dream of “Lois being the key”

End credits, part 1

Steppenwolf synchronizes the Mother Boxes, as the team discuss the plan on the Flying Fox.

Superman and Flash have a race

Clark goes to the Kryptonian ship and finds the black suit

End credits, part 2 (“Come Together”)

Batman flies into the base and destroys the shield

Lex Luthor escapes from Arkham Asylum and meets with Deathstroke on his yacht.

The team fights through the horde of Parademons, while Batman paves a path for them in the Batmobile.

 

Superman visits Alfred.

Wonder Woman and Aquaman fight Steppenwolf while Cyborg tries to separate the Mother Boxes, but to no avail. Superman arrives just in time and effortlessly defeats Steppenwolf.

A portal opens, revealing Darksied, DeSaad and Granny Goddness on the other side.

Cyborg does not stop The Unity in time. The Flash enters the Speed Force, reversing time, allowing Superman and Cyborg to separate the Mother Boxes.

Aquaman impales Steppenwolf and Wonder Woman decapitates him as he flies into the portal. Darkseid and DeSaad discuss further plans.

Epilogue:

  • Cyborg finds another recording by Silas, telling him to use his abilities for good (continued in voiceover throughout)
  • Arthur leaves the Icelandic village
  • Bruce, Diana and Alfred set up a base at the former Wayne Manor
  • Ryan Choi continues his work on the Kryptonian ship
  • Bruce buys back the Kent farm for Clark
  • Barry tells his dad he has gotten a job at the Central City police department
  • Clark resumes his job as a reporter
  • Diana finds another message from the Amazons

Lex Luthor escapes from Arkham Asylum and meets with Deathstroke on his yacht.

Bruce has another Knightmare. He wakes up and meets Martian Manhunter.

End credits.

 

 

 

 

 

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16 minutes ago, Harry Irene said:

Alright, after having watched both versions back to back, here's a scene-by-scene comparison unless someone else has already done it yet. (Spoilers of course if you haven't seen the Snyder Cut yet.)

 

Notes:

  • Scenes highlighted in bold are new scenes added by Whedon
  • Scenes highlighted in italics are scenes shot by Zack Snyder, but heavily rewritten and edited in the Whedon Cut

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

I see no difference. 

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@TSMefford Haha, yeah, kind of expected you to chime in.

 

First, I don’t have a vendetta against 4:3. I don’t wish all movies should be filmed in 16:9. I can imagine a director choosing 4:3 for artistic reasons, and liking it as a stylistic choice, but I will confess that I’m prejudiced to think that that should be quirky comedies, dramas or that it makes a point relevant to the story/setting other than what Snyder has provided.

 

As you’ve already pointed out, saying that “shot composition effects different people psychologically”, this is all highly subjective and there’s really no wrong or right. Drax’s rather boring point asking “who decided widescreen was more cinematic"... well, no one. But it is my subjective opinion is that I do feel that 16:9 is more cinematic than 4:3. But as I wrote above, I have no problems having a “cinematic” experience with a movie shot in 4:3.

But regarding JL and 16:9 vs 4:3, I do hear all your arguments, and you’re not wrong, we just don’t agree. 😉

 

Like with Superman for example. If I had to choose a painting to hang on my wall, I’d go with the 4:3. But we’re talking about a moving image, so maybe we do get the entire ‘S’, the camera could zoom, or go from top to bottom. And we’ve seen the ‘S’ before in other scenes, probably just a split second before. So while I do agree that the 4:3 is more ‘properly’ framed as a still image, I don’t necessarily agree that it is the best choice for an action movie.

 

Regarding my argument about “pointless information”, skylines etc, you counter with that it’s all about the subject. And as you point out, since the framing and the subjects change from shot to shot, we’d have to have different aspect ratios for the “optimal” framing, but no one wants that. So we have to choose. But then who decides that, for example, empty skies (up) are more pointless than empty skylines (left/right)? Again, I’d just rather see what is going on around the character in the frame. Where is he. What is the setting. How do people around react and look. (I get that we can still get that with 4:3, but I do want that “extra” information at the sides of the cinema screen, rather than the feeling that it was “chopped off).

 

Regarding your last two points, the first being that if my TV was 4:3 I’d want all movies to be 4:3 as well... well, yeah, I guess so. But would cinema still be 16:9? If yes, then I’d rather wish for a 16:9 TV rather than for all movies to be 4:3.

 

Lastly, you point out that you could go and find many shots in the movie that looks better in 4:3 than in 16:9. I don’t doubt it. But I could easily do the same but for the opposite purpose.

 

Funnily enough, we might even choose the same image for proving opposite points. 😊

 

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4 hours ago, Quintus said:

How come movie geeks go mad for shitty looking green screen CGI fests in Justice League but they get mad at shitty looking green screen fests in The Hobbit? 

Snyder fanboys have lower standards than LOTR fanboys. 

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