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Indiana Jones - "Seventh on the bottom"??


dsch1976

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Not exactly a newbie, but the last time I was on here was around 2006 and that account is long, long gone.

I've seen a few interviews with JW regarding the Indiana Jones scores, and not surprisingly he says the Nazi themes throw back to adventure movie scores of the 1940s, and refers to the "seventh degree of the scale on the bottom."

Here's an example:

He makes the reference around 3;33.

Anyone have an idea what he means by this? The closest I can come up with is this: the cue we hear right after that statement is Toht's entrance into Marion's pub, where the low brass plays a G, played by an arpeggiated diminished seventh chord (Ab-B-D-F), which would want to resolve to A, so there's a chord constructed on the seventh degree of A Major. But somehow this just doesn't strike me as what he means.

I know there's sensitivity here to getting into theoretical analysis of JW scores, but I'm at somewhat of a loss, so would be great to get someone else's perspective to what he means.

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Upon looking at the score, it seems that the very beginning of that swelling phrase in the Trombones, there is a Bbm chord going to Em, and back to Bbm. The very first Bbm has a G# in the Tuba part. In that particular instance, it is just very short, and probably a bad example. But those kinds of chords are used throughout the film to depict the Nazis, of course, and in greater abundance.

RLA%207th.png

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Anyone else think that video (about 10:15) shows George making the suggestion that as the group ride away out of the cave, it should be the more lushly orchestrated presentation of the Raiders march (as it is in the final film), rather than the more subdued version that appears in that video (and on the OST) ?

If so, definitely shows George does have a knack for the musical side of his films. The ending is scored perfectly in the final film. Not sure I liked JW's original, more restrained intention as much.

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Upon looking at the score, it seems that the very beginning of that swelling phrase in the Trombones, there is a Bbm chord going to Em, and back to Bbm. The very first Bbm has a G# in the Tuba part. In that particular instance, it is just very short, and probably a bad example. But those kinds of chords are used throughout the film to depict the Nazis, of course, and in greater abundance.

RLA%207th.png

No, excuse me, the first chord is G minor. The sequence is Gm - Em - Bbm. The symbol that you see before the G in the Tuba part is just "ff" (fortissimo).

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What he is saying is he puts the seventh of the chord at the bottom which emphasizes the dissonance. He does this frequently. It is also in Lando's palace. Example: in c major the 7th is a B. if you put the seventh at the bottom you hear the B next to the C (a minor second) which emphasizes the dissonance compared to when the 7th is on top of the chord where the dissonance is deemphasized.

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What he is saying is he puts the seventh of the chord at the bottom which emphasizes the dissonance. He does this frequently. It is also in Lando's palace. Example: in c major the 7th is a B. if you put the seventh at the bottom you hear the B next to the C (a minor second) which emphasizes the dissonance compared to when the 7th is on top of the chord where the dissonance is deemphasized.

That was my immediate understanding of what he was saying, and when talking about a 3rd inversion 7th chord, Lando's Palace is a good example. However, I can't think of many examples from the Nazis in Indiana Jones where a 7th chord is sounded this way. Mostly what I think of (vertically, that is) are unison in the low brass, but I'll go back and listen some more. Any good examples you can recommend?

Upon looking at the score, it seems that the very beginning of that swelling phrase in the Trombones, there is a Bbm chord going to Em, and back to Bbm. The very first Bbm has a G# in the Tuba part. In that particular instance, it is just very short, and probably a bad example. But those kinds of chords are used throughout the film to depict the Nazis, of course, and in greater abundance.

RLA%207th.png

Wanner I'm curious where you got a score? I've never been able to find any for the films that aren't concert arrangements of main themes.

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What he is saying is he puts the seventh of the chord at the bottom which emphasizes the dissonance. He does this frequently. It is also in Lando's palace. Example: in c major the 7th is a B. if you put the seventh at the bottom you hear the B next to the C (a minor second) which emphasizes the dissonance compared to when the 7th is on top of the chord where the dissonance is deemphasized.

That was my immediate understanding of what he was saying, and when talking about a 3rd inversion 7th chord, Lando's Palace is a good example. However, I can't think of many examples from the Nazis in Indiana Jones where a 7th chord is sounded this way. Mostly what I think of (vertically, that is) are unison in the low brass, but I'll go back and listen some more. Any good examples you can recommend?

>Upon looking at the score, it seems that the very beginning of that swelling phrase in the Trombones, there is a Bbm chord going to Em, and back to Bbm. The very first Bbm has a G# in the Tuba part. In that particular instance, it is just very short, and probably a bad example. But those kinds of chords are used throughout the film to depict the Nazis, of course, and in greater abundance.

Hi,

The chord at the start of Lando's palace is an E major 7 chord which is voiced with the D# (the 7th) at the bottom and the E rubbing against each other in the melody. This is exactly the same thing he is talking about in the video at 3:33. I know this is in Superman alot too. He does this often. Here is the Lando cue:

at 6 seconds.
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No, excuse me, the first chord is G minor. The sequence is Gm - Em - Bbm. The symbol that you see before the G in the Tuba part is just "ff" (fortissimo).

Ah, indeed you are correct about the fortissimo... Gm it is...

I'll look through the score more to see if I can find any instances of 7th on the bottom. I know it's in there somewhere because I hear it all the time.

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  • 1 year later...

I've never been able to understand where exactly Williams is referring to with this "seventh in the bass" idea. I just looked up the moment in Raiders when the Nazis enter Marion's tavern, and what's written there are some quartal chords then some parallel minor chords, but nothing where the seventh of a chord is in the bass.

This has bugged me for some time, as I've never been able to find a passage to which Williams refers in Raiders, though I haven't combed through every note of the score.

Anyone have some specifics on this, or was Williams perhaps getting confused with some other score or technique, especially given that he's talking about the score many years after having written it? (Come on, he's not infallible, you know.)

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I'm having trouble thinking of specific instances where the seventh-on-the-bottom technique is used for the Nazis. I think Williams was referring to a few families of chords that he just generally likes to use, and perhaps he mis-remembered himself using them more for the Nazis than he actually did. I don't think he's necessarily referring to the seventh being in the bass, either. That doesn't seem to be his usual MO. But if, say, the trumpets are playing a minor triad, he'll often throw in a semitone dissonance (i.e., the major seventh, the augmented fourth, or the major third) at or near the bottom of that triad. It's a sort of voicing he's been fond of for a long time.

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I think the answer is simple - Williams is referring to his campier Nazi motif from THE LAST CRUSADE, not RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK. The confusion comes from whoever edited or directed that interview-- he selected the wrong clip.

The clearest example of this Nazi motif right at the start of Marcus is Captured / To Berlin. It involves Fm, C and Db, resolving to a G (#II or V/V?), over a tonic pedal.

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The clearest example of this Nazi motif right at the start of Marcus is Captured / To Berlin. It involves Fm, C and Db, resolving to a G (#II or V/V?), over a tonic pedal.

So, where's the 7th?

edit: oh, F is the 7th of G chord on the bass, created by the pedal. Is that what you mean?

still it doesn't sound right that Williams would use that expression for this..

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edit: oh, F is the 7th of G chord on the bass, created by the pedal. Is that what you mean?

still it doesn't sound right that Williams would use that expression for this..

That's right. Maybe that's how Williams thinks of it?

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I think Williams' "7th on the bottom" is a sort of short hand for any altered traditional chordality that emphasizes minor seconds; it could be Fm/E, but also Cm/F#, Db/E etc. I think he really meant to sound less specific.

My guess is that a host of similar harmonic constructs leapt to his mind as he discussed it, and he opted to offer the example that perhaps to him seemed would make the most sense to a general audience.

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I think Williams' "7th on the bottom" is a sort of short hand for any altered traditional chordality that emphasizes minor seconds; it could be Fm/E, but also Cm/F#, Db/E etc. I think he really meant to sound less specific.

You mean, implied polytonality?

Man I'd love to chat with Williams for hours about this stuff, or at least before the men in the white coats arrive.

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I think Williams' "7th on the bottom" is a sort of short hand for any altered traditional chordality that emphasizes minor seconds; it could be Fm/E, but also Cm/F#, Db/E etc. I think he really meant to sound less specific.

My guess is that a host of similar harmonic constructs leapt to his mind as he discussed it, and he opted to offer the example that perhaps to him seemed would make the most sense to a general audience.

That's my feeling, as well.

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The mystery has been solved! Thanks to a very intelligent friend for the solution. First of all, Sharky, you're right that it's THE LAST CRUSADE he's talking about, they just edit in Toht's entrance from RAIDERS when he mentions the idea, but that's not an example of what he's talking about. The place you cite in TLC, however, moves the bass just at the moment that the (dominant) seventh chord on G comes in, turning what would have been a "seventh-on-the-bottom" chord into a plain old root-position chord.

A good example (again, I assume no credit for this) is in the cue, "Discussing the Book", in which the Nazis barge in on Henry and Indy, demanding they hand over Henry's diary. After the initial Raiders-like parallel minor chords for the Nazis' entrance, the harmony progresses through several dominant seventh chords in third inversion, or "4/2 chords" for short. Here's what's in that scene starting from the very end of the brassy minor chords (using jazz notation):

F7/Eb - Ab7/Gb - G7/F - E7/D - D7/C - G7/F - Bb7/Ab - Db7/Cb - D7/C

Seventh on the bottom indeed!

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1:07-1:54

Thank you Ludwig.

Yes, it's indeed 7ths on the bottom in all chords, but it feels strange that Williams would talk about such a passage which is just an underscore (dont' remember if it can be found anywhere else, probably not) and not a theme..

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