Another greatest ever list for your disagreeing pleasure

[Quintus 5,391]

http://uk.ign.com/articles/2010/09/14/top-25-sci-fi-movies-of-all-time?page=1

WTF, is hell freezing over whilst I type?! The trashy IGN publishes a list which is actually quite bloody respectable???

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

Decent, though i would have their number 2 as number 1.

[Brónach 490]

I was reading the list nd thinking, there sure is a very reduced number of science-fiction films, watchable ones at least. Always the same ones. Yawn.

That's even less films if you start taking out the Star Treks, the Star Warses, the random Clockwork Orange, the random Inception, etc. Just zzz.

[Quintus 5,391]

Chaac, you really are the biggest misery guts on this board. Which is just wrong considering your young years. Cheer up man!

Decent, though i would have their number 2 as number 1.

Possibly.

Seeing The Matrix placed so highly is interesting to me actually. In a way, I could appreciate someone claiming it to be the best ever.

[Brónach 490]

Chaac, you really are the biggest misery guts on this board. Which is just wrong considering your young years. Cheer up man!

Depends of where on the Internet I'm writing. This forum has been a bit boring lately.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

Spanish melancholy.

[Nick1Ø66 2,910]

Avatar is a unique film in that is has an amazing "wow" factor the first time you see it, but holds up less than almost any movie I can think of on repeat viewings, especially at home.

At least that's been my experience. I'm not sure if as a science fiction film it deserves to be on this list or not.

[Quintus 5,391]

Spanish melancholy.

Bullshit.

But yeah, it's quite surprising to see Blade Runner place top of the pile on a seriously mainstream site like IGN. I half expected to see Transformers up there.

[Brónach 490]

Avatar

is a unique film in that is has an amazing "wow" factor the first time

you see it, but holds up less than almost any movie I can think of on

repeat viewings, especially at home.

At least that's been my experience. I'm not sure if as a science fiction film it deserves to be on this list or not.

No wow factor for me at all.

I still remember everybody else around me being loud and openly excited about the film they were seeing and I was like... "ok".

I had read the treatment, and I had liked some isolated ideas here and there and hates the rest. The film went further and took care of missing every opportunity.

[Nick1Ø66 2,910]

Actually, it's a pretty poor list, at least in terms of order. When you put BTTF over CE3K, you've got credibility problems.

And I'm surprised JP made it, what with those fake looking dinosaurs and all.

[Brónach 490]

Spanish melancholy.

?

[gkgyver 1,638]

I think Avatar just plain sucks. Not bad, but intensely boring.

[Brónach 490]

Yes bad.

[Nick1Ø66 2,910]

And while I've never been a huge fan of The Matrix (I like it well enough), its influence as a science fiction film really can't be overstated, and definitely belongs in the Top 5.

[Brónach 490]

I don't like it.

You know what, fuck it, I'm going to Other Topics to write something fun.

[BloodBoal 7,532]

Avatar

is a unique film in that is has an amazing "wow" factor the first time

you see it, but holds up less than almost any movie I can think of on

repeat viewings, especially at home.

At least that's been my experience. I'm not sure if as a science fiction film it deserves to be on this list or not.

No wow factor for me at all.

+1

[Jonesy 55]

Yeah, Avatar is a boring film.

[Quintus 5,391]

Avatar is a unique film in that is has an amazing "wow" factor the first time you see it, but holds up less than almost any movie I can think of on repeat viewings, especially at home.

Pretty much sums up my own reaction to it. I absolutely loved the theatrical experience, it was a marvel. I haven't watched it since and I do not own the Blu, but I imagine its effect to be significantly lessened on the small screen.

Actually, it's a pretty poor list, at least in terms of order. When you put BTTF over CE3K, you've got credibility problems.

And I'm surprised JP made it, what with those fake looking dinosaurs and all.

I agree with IGN in these instances.

[alicebrallice 133]

I was reading the list nd thinking, there sure is a very reduced number of science-fiction films, watchable ones at least. Always the same ones. Yawn.

That's even less films if you start taking out the Star Treks, the Star Warses, the random Clockwork Orange, the random Inception, etc. Just zzz.

Yes bad.

I don't like it.

better?

Avatar

is a unique film in that is has an amazing "wow" factor the first time

you see it, but holds up less than almost any movie I can think of on

repeat viewings, especially at home.

At least that's been my experience. I'm not sure if as a science fiction film it deserves to be on this list or not.

No wow factor for me at all.

+1

what do you guys think of the score?

[Marian Schedenig 5,520]

Avatar is a unique film in that is has an amazing "wow" factor the first time you see it, but holds up less than almost any movie I can think of on repeat viewings, especially at home.

At least that's been my experience. I'm not sure if as a science fiction film it deserves to be on this list or not.

I enjoyed it at the theatre (the only time I've seen it), but I was very sure that without all the 3D wowness, it would have been seriously boring. I wouldn't put it on any "best of" list, nor Jurassic Park (which I like overall, but don't find a good film). Probably not Inception, either. I've never liked T2 and would probably replace it with the original Terminator (which I haven't seen in years). I'd also rate CE3K higher.

Films I might put on the list instead of some I would remove: The 78 Body Snatchers (which gave me one of the greatest scares of my life... as far as I remember, I didn't like the original all that much), Total Recall, Starship Troopers, Logan's Run (yes - it's campy, and not one of the greats, but IMHO better than some that are listed). Also Trek VI, but I wouldn't want to over-Trek the list.

[BloodBoal 7,532]

what do you guys think of the score?

Meh. There are a few really great cues, such as Quaritch Down, but on the whole, it's quite a mixed bag, really.

[Jonesy 55]

I love that cue

[Quintus 5,391]

Avatar was the best score I heard that year. I absolutely loved it. But then again I'm a sucker for anything from the laziest git in film music.

[alicebrallice 133]

it's in my top 3 favorite horner scores

[Marian Schedenig 5,520]

Avatar annoyed me less than most Horner scores of recent years that I've heard.

[Quintus 5,391]

Whenever I hear Horner up to his usual tricks I just grin to myself instead of getting annoyed by him.

[chuck 154]

[wanner251 17]

Well, that list is pretty good, but it seems way out of order. The Matrix has nothing on Star Trek II, nor does it make sense to list Alien higher than Aliens. Aliens is clearly the superior of the two. Close Encounters is WAY too low. And nearly everyone seems to agree that 2001 is still the best sci-fi movie ever made. However, I think most of those movies definitely belong on that list, so it's not a total bust.

[Brónach 490]

better?

The score has some interesting cues. I like for example Quaritch Down, the War cue, and some random moments and effects here and there.

I'm thinking on the film and I think the most entertaining part was the villain being indestructible. I was basically rooting for the guy at some point.

[Ollie 859]

Not bad, I'd move Blade Runner and 2001 down lower, CE3K should be higher.

[Koray Savas 2,095]

Whenever I hear Horner up to his usual tricks I just grin to myself instead of getting annoyed by him.

That's what most tend to do, but when Zimmer does the same it's "PIECE OF SHIT HACK FILM SCORE HISTORY RUINING MUTHAFUCKA!"

Avatar is as generic as they come. It's a Zimmer score with the danger motif.

[Ollie 859]

It's still better music.

[Koray Savas 2,095]

I wasn't trying to compare musical composition between the two, but both of them are quite similar in terms of career development.

[Brónach 490]

It's a Zimmer score with the danger motif.

No, it sounds pretty much like Horner.

[Koray Savas 2,095]

It sounds a lot like Gladiator in places and flavor.

[Brónach 490]

Why? You can see Horner's fingerprints all over the Avatar score, even snippets from Apocalypto (which is an awesome score).

Horner orchestral approach isn't really like Zimmer's. For example, Horner doesn't have these flat synthy sounds going up and down that Zimmer uses. (Sorry, I can't explain that better right now). Horner also makes more extensive use of certain parts of the orchestra and he's in general more traditional in his writing. In general his textures are less broad and more twinkly than Zimmer's. And Zimmer doesn't do much that thing with the horns jumping around on fifths and fourths to punctuate different melodic segments that Horner loves. I actually feel kind of silly explaining this that I don't even know where to start.

The danger parabará is the least important aspect of Horner's music here.

[KK 3,202]

It sounds a lot like Gladiator in places and flavor.

Can you elaborate? Here's hoping wailing voices isn't your only argument....

Avatar is a fun listen because it's an incredible repackaging and development of Horner's past thematic ideas. He just manages to effectively put it together in an incredibly satisfying and entertaining score.

Why?

Horner orchestral approach isn't really like Zimmer's. For example, Horner doesn't have these flat synthy sounds going up and down that Zimmer uses. (Sorry, I can't explain that better right now). Horner also makes more extensive use of certain parts of the orchestra and he's in general more traditional in his writing. In general his textures are less broad and more twinkly than Zimmer's. And Zimmer doesn't do much that thing with the horns jumping around on fifths and fourths to punctuate different melodic segments that Horner loves. The danger parabará is the least important aspect of Horner's music here.You can see Horner's fingerprints all over the Avatar score, even snippets from Apocalypto (which is an awesome score). I actually feel kind of silly explaining this that I don't even know where to start.

Zimmer has a tendency to use block chord progressions (for the sake of a broader sound) and utilizes little counterpoint. There are exceptions of course. But Horner's style and regurgitation is largely more entertaining because he knows how to repackage his work in a more diverse manner both in terms of musical colour and textures. Hearing the love theme in The Four Feathers setting is incredibly different to its larger setting in Avatar. Horner may tend to copy and paste past ideas, but he has a sense to try and push those melodic or structural ideas forwards into a new direction to suit the film. One example is the theme from Enemy From the Gates and Black Gold. Two similar ideas, but incredibly different compared to its lavish "desert" setting in the latter and its more sombre appearances in the former.

Zimmer unfortunately doesn't really try to push his past sounds forward. For instance, "Time" (from Inception) sounds just like "Chevaliers de Sangreal" and "Journey to the Line", but stripped of greater colour for simplcity's sake. Follows the same format but in a more mundane matter. What made "Chevaliers de Sangreal" so darn enjoyable is because it took the "Journey to the Line" adagio concept and expanded it, he simply didn't do the same with Inception. Part of the problem lies in the relatively simple structure of Zimmer's themes, but that's not to put fault in simplicity. It's just that these days, he doesn't try as much to diversify his trademark sound, at times coming off as more of the same.

Another problem with Zimmer's early 2000s scores is his need to augment the real orchestra recording with slightly dated synth samples. Gladiator would sound so much better if it were just the orchestral recording. The Prague re-recording shows how much a solid real brass section benefits the action music (even though its not the best performance...).

[Brónach 490]

That's why Avatar is an entertaining score. And between that Horner pushes in a few new things, but the thing is that even though it can't sound more like Horner it still sounds quite specific for the film. In fact what calls my attention the most about the Avatar score is that you tell at some points in the score that Horner actually was interested and put effort in what he was doing. And then it deviates back into some retread. It's actually a bit funny.

[KK 3,202]

It's what makes Avatar different from something like The Dark Knight Rises. The latter offers new ideas, but is largely a rehash of past material with little development.

Avatar on the other hand shows a real effort to expand upon the composer's past ideas. They aren't just copied and pasted (although many people might think so). There was time and care taken with creating the right kind of atmosphere, choosing the right kind of musical colours (the vocals, the synths, etc) and pushing the melodic ideas in the right direction. It's why the score's self-plagiarism bothers less than Horner's other scores.

I've read somewhere that Horner tends to re-use his thematic ideas as if choosing the right musical and emotional colours from his established palette for the film he has to score. And while that may be a wrong way to approach composition, you can't deny its effectiveness. It's what made Avatar so enjoyable, and to a lesser degree made For Greater Glory so entertaining.

And Chaac, I hope this "depression" phase of yours ends sometime soon

[Koray Savas 2,095]

"Gathering All The Na'vi Clans For Battle" is essentially Zimmer. I didn't mean it in a literal way, which is why I said flavor. Horner's score is very much his own, but it treads on a lot of musical sensibilities that Zimmer established through the late 90s and early 00s. The orchestral vs synth argument has nothing to do with it.

[chuck 154]

Jamie is not amused.

[publicist 4,484]

AVATAR is Horner sucking up to James Cameron without reservations. It's really a score that on the whole is rather trashy but then there are assorted pieces that dramatically work - as the cue when Jake first gets into his avatar or the long mating sequence and i bet those sequences were the ones he had fun doing while all the crude RCP war and baby ostinati stuff were the prize to pay for another mammoth venture with Cameron.

As for the list, i only see american genre films with huge BO and the occasional token 'classic' fig leaf. And Marian is absolutely right, the Sutherland remake of BODY SNATCHERS belongs on this list.

[filmmusic 925]

I don't get this all the time with Blade Runner.

Yes, it has an excellent atmosphere, magnificent effects, great aesthetics, very impressive overall but I have watched it 3 times and I was bored all of them..

And it is not like I don't like slow films (I love Terrence Mallick films).

I just don't get it..

[Jay 27,216]

I don't hear any Zimmer influence in Avatar at all

[Koray Savas 2,095]

The cue I listed sounds like it was temped with Gladiator.

[Jay 27,216]

so 1 cue in a 3 hour score?

[publicist 4,484]

so 1 cue in a 3 hour score?

You listen to WAR and it does sound like good 'ole Horner action music to you?

[Jay 27,216]

Haven't listened to any of Avatar in a few years, I'll have to refresh my memory

[Koray Savas 2,095]

so 1 cue in a 3 hour score?

Did I say that? Anyone that calls Avatar original is just lying to themselves. It's derivative of Horner and Zimmer/contemporary action music. I'll say it for the third time, I'm talking about TONE and TEXTURE. It was only nominated because it was attached to the highest grossing film of all time. Actually, that's why it got all of its nominations. It's a rather bad movie.

[Quintus 5,391]

Avatar is possibly the most derivative score of the last five years, but I still prefer its melody and timbre over anything I've heard from Zimmer during the same time span.