tedfud 38 Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 Hitrying to study some JW sketches ( 8 stave's ) but nothing marked. It looks as if the bottom three are all strings (6,7,8 ). Top two are woodwinds ? ( 1,2,) ...so 3 and 4 brass ? 5 key's harp ?anybody know ?all the besttedfud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,041 Posted February 7, 2013 Share Posted February 7, 2013 He's a little loose with the order - it sucks when the labels aren't missing or illegible. Generally speaking, he keeps roughly to the order you find in a traditional conductor's score. But things do change from cue to cue, or even measure to measure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedfud 38 Posted February 7, 2013 Author Share Posted February 7, 2013 yes...it seems so. I got a printed one from Superman and that changes every other measure !!!!.....still trying to work out the asteroid field and this is all i could find......still very interestinge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig 1,120 Posted February 7, 2013 Share Posted February 7, 2013 Any particular place you're looking at in "The Asteroid Field"? The scoring seems to be marked at all times, but changing frequently, as Datameister points out.For the start of that cue, where the quote of the Imperial March occurs (where there's a big "28" at the top of the sketch - p. 65 of the ESB sketches PDF), the instrumentation for the staves are marked ("1" starting from the top down):1 - "Piano, glock, chimes"2 - "Piat.", short for "piatti", the Italian for cymbals - funny, I don't hear any cymbals in the final cue; maybe they took it out?3 - blank4,5 - "Brass"6,7 - unmarked, but clearly strings8 - "Tymp" - timpaniOn a related note, these sketches were of course elaborated into the final score by his long-time orchestrator, the late Herbert Spencer. There has been a lot of criticism in literature on film music that film composers don't do their own orchestrations because they say the orchestrators do it for them. The few who know the truth about Williams and other top composers have pointed to these sketches and noted that just about everything's there already and Spencer was more of a copyist than an orchestrator. I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but just thought I'd mention it FWIW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedfud 38 Posted February 7, 2013 Author Share Posted February 7, 2013 ok i see that...where it says "imperiously" ? so is the way this works you just change a stave at any time for an instrument you want ? and herb just took em all out and put them on there own staves ? e Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig 1,120 Posted February 7, 2013 Share Posted February 7, 2013 Yes, "imperiously" (which is funny - how else should the Imperial March be played?). I suppose the ordering how you say it is, though it's odd to me that the percussion appears at the top and the timpani on the bottom. In a full score, these are always between the brass and strings. I haven't done a comprehensive study of these sketches, but they seem to be pretty consistent in the ordering, it's just that the number of instruments from each family can change. So maybe a wind staff becomes a trumpet staff. But it does seem like he labels things pretty carefully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedfud 38 Posted February 7, 2013 Author Share Posted February 7, 2013 i just wish i could read his writing a little clearer . Still this seems to be the only score out there of this cue . I found one that is typeset but i'm sure it's not williams. It doesn't start with the Imperial March either....My plan is to copy this into Sibelius then into my DAW and try and recreate it with my sample Library . I'd like to get to grips with the way the harmony works. by hearing stuff in isolation. Do you think this would be worth while. ?I am just a little exasperated by so many action cues that seem to have low stings that just chug away playing two beats on each note of a minor chord !!!!! slap some brass swells ...and it's a movie score....i miss technique.t Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,041 Posted February 7, 2013 Share Posted February 7, 2013 My plan is to copy this into Sibelius then into my DAW and try and recreate it with my sample Library . I'd like to get to grips with the way the harmony works. by hearing stuff in isolation. Do you think this would be worth while. ?VERY much worthwhile, yes. It's a lot of fun to go through and study Williams cues this way. You learn a lot. And if you're in a hurry, even just sitting down at the piano and playing through a few measures can be educational. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedfud 38 Posted February 7, 2013 Author Share Posted February 7, 2013 Great . I'm glad it seems like a good idea. I did a mock up of a Michael Giacchino cue, but didn't have the score so had to do it by ear. Took a week but I learned a lot. TOh lord this is hard...any idea what the clef is in stave 3 ? Bar 41. Is it bass ? The sound like trombones T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig 1,120 Posted February 7, 2013 Share Posted February 7, 2013 Great . I'm glad it seems like a good idea. I did a mock up of a Michael Giacchino cue, but didn't have the score so had to do it by ear. Took a week but I learned a lot.TOh lord this is hard...any idea what the clef is in stave 3 ? Bar 41. Is it bass ? The sound like trombonesTI can answer this in a bit - again, not with my scores, though I will be shortly. I'm sure it's not easy, but I am curious why you want to start with this cue in particular. Why not study something for which there is a full score first, like The Battle from the original Star Wars? You would probably find similar techniques, orchestrations, etc. that you could then apply to The Asteroid Field. It seems like you're reaching right for the very summit of action cues (which I admire, of course), but there is probably an easier way. Just trying to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedfud 38 Posted February 7, 2013 Author Share Posted February 7, 2013 Yes to be honest i think you are quite right. I really don't think i know enough to climb this particular peak quite yet. What would you recommend ? I have some stuff from the first movie due to the wonderful internet. I'd be more than happy to buy something if i could find it. What i really what to learn is fast action cue writing. Which battle are you referring to ? Is there a decent score available ?many thanks again for all your helpt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig 1,120 Posted February 7, 2013 Share Posted February 7, 2013 To answer the question about the sketch, there are definitely trombones, bar 41, staff 3. He's got "Tbs" (= trombones). But there is also what looks like "Wind" at the same spot, so probably doubling in the bassoons. He uses "Wind" in other places, and at other times specifies precisely what instruments in the wind family, probably only when there could be confusion as to which ones. The low range of these notes are only playable in the bassoons, so I would think this is what he means.As for the score, I have a hard copy of the Star Wars Symphonic Suite. This is not the same as the newer "Signature Series" that has music from both of the first two movies. The older suite has a cue called "The Battle" from the end of the first film, which on the newer CDs is renamed "The Death Star/The Stormtroopers". This is a fast action cue that is certainly worth studying. See if you can get your hands on it at a library somewhere, one that specializes in music. That would probably be your best bet since it's no longer in print. The newer suite still is in print, but that doesn't have the kind of fast action music you're looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedfud 38 Posted February 7, 2013 Author Share Posted February 7, 2013 Ok thank you....I might know where to get that .T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedfud 38 Posted February 8, 2013 Author Share Posted February 8, 2013 ok i think ive found it....just called "the Battle" tempo 66 first diad in the horns ( 3 and 4 ) F and Aflat ....is that it ?t Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig 1,120 Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 Yes, that's the one. It includes the long lead up to the Death Star exploding and the music just after it. Cool stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedfud 38 Posted February 8, 2013 Author Share Posted February 8, 2013 ace......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedfud 38 Posted February 8, 2013 Author Share Posted February 8, 2013 sorry to bug you again...but is there a jump in the score against the soundtrack recording ? At about 1;40 after the climax of the rebel fanfare tutti the soundtrack goes to a "rite of spring" style chugging in the brass and strings but the score ( bar 40 ) is completely different ??tok sussed it.....the soundtrack recordings have an edit. I found an LA Phil recording on iTunes with the whole piece . Very interesting. Lot's of "Battle of Britain" and "Miraculous Mandarin" in there .......t Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig 1,120 Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Oh good. Let me know what you see/hear in the piece as you study it. I'd be curious to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedfud 38 Posted February 9, 2013 Author Share Posted February 9, 2013 will do...i'm busy producing an album at the moment so i will be doing after hours so to speak. realistically it will take month .....i'll keep you postedall the bestt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedfud 38 Posted February 9, 2013 Author Share Posted February 9, 2013 sorry...dumb question....this score is in concert right.....pitches sound as written ?t Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,041 Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Not a dumb question! Yep, Williams always does his sketches in concert pitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedfud 38 Posted February 9, 2013 Author Share Posted February 9, 2013 okso i just enter it as written in sibeluis . Save as a midi file . Then Import it into Cubase and assign each track to my sampler and i'm good to go ?t Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig 1,120 Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Wait a minute. You said the score has horns 3 and 4 on F and A-flat. That's the same score I have, and it's not in concert pitch. All transposing instruments have the written pitch, not the sounding one. If you're using Sibelius, just make sure you have "transposing score" on so that when you enter the horns, for example, they transpose down a 5th for the sound.Datameister, I think you're right that JW writes his sketches in concert pitch, but since this is a finished score, everything's transposing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedfud 38 Posted February 9, 2013 Author Share Posted February 9, 2013 ah ha !......saved by ludwigt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig 1,120 Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 I'm curious as to why you want to enter it into Sibelius when you have a recording already. To hear each instrument individually maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedfud 38 Posted February 9, 2013 Author Share Posted February 9, 2013 it's so quick. Much quicker than cubase if i'm copying a score. And then it's easy to copy chunks and analyse them.Tif it was a transposed score wouldn't the transposing instruments be written in different keys....they don't seem to be t Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig 1,120 Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 He doesn't use key signatures for this piece, so he writes accidentals instead. Horns 3 and 4, for example, double what trombone 3 and the tuba are doing at the start - exactly the same pitches.So you copy bits of the music, then analyze them? Why do you copy the music to analyze it? Does it have to do with hearing certain sections of the piece without the mass of the whole orchestra? I suppose I've never analyzed that way, which is why I ask. Just curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedfud 38 Posted February 9, 2013 Author Share Posted February 9, 2013 ok...I just want to make sure iv,e got this right. The instruments that transpose , say the clarinets are they Bb or A's . And where it's written on the score is where it's played ? so i'll need to transpose them to hear them properly ?sorry to seem dim...i'm used to orchestral scores with markings. i'm a record producer by trade and even though i've studied quite a bit i really like be able to hear all the bits separately which is how I learn how it all fits togethert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig 1,120 Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Sibelius will do the transposing for you as long as you choose the correct instrument to start with and have "Transposing Score" switched on. You're right that the transpositions are not marked in this score, but looking at, I can tell you that the transposing instruments are:Clarinets - all in Bb, down a major 2ndBass Clarinet - in Bb, down a major 9thContrabassoon - down an octaveHorns - all in F, down a 5thTrumpets - all in Bb, down a major 2ndBass - down an octaveI understand now why you're copying it out. That would be really cool to hear the parts individually.So what I mean is that with the switch turned on in Sibelius and with the right instruments chosen, you just enter the notes as they are in the score, and Sibelius will play them as they sound, not as they are written. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedfud 38 Posted February 9, 2013 Author Share Posted February 9, 2013 ok...many thanks. Ive got it I think...first bit of strangeness. The horns are playing an octave below the trombones ?Tdon't see a contra bassoon. Is it the second stave of "the bassoons" ?t Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig 1,120 Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Yes, horns an octave below the trombones. And yes, contrabassoon would be the second bassoon staff. Funny, it's marked in my score, and it's even written again over the first bar of that part just to make sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedfud 38 Posted February 9, 2013 Author Share Posted February 9, 2013 ok great ...many thanks....two pages done......ill report backT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig 1,120 Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Excellent. By the way, the Death Star explodes at bar 201. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedfud 38 Posted February 9, 2013 Author Share Posted February 9, 2013 now THAT is a worthy goal to aim for !t Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete 907 Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 I can read music, but I can't make head or tail of those sketches^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedfud 38 Posted February 10, 2013 Author Share Posted February 10, 2013 yup..they are very hard to read....that's why I'm going the printed route to start with. I guess i'm hoping after studying one cue for a while, i'll find it easier to digest a handwritten onet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,041 Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 The sketches do get somewhat easier to read as you get used to his handwriting, but some spots really are virtually impossible to read, haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keyes 18 Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 Hello Guys, I'm studyin orchestration and how J. W. Sketches.Anyone can help me in finding pdf files of some of his sketches?Any help is much appreciated! Thank You! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uni 306 Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 PianoFiles(.com). If you have some sheets of your own, you can start trading with people. If you put some effort and patience into the process, you can build a fairly sizable collection in a short period of time. (If you have no sheets of your own and need some help getting started, send me a PM and we'll talk.)So you copy bits of the music, then analyze them? Why do you copy the music to analyze it? Does it have to do with hearing certain sections of the piece without the mass of the whole orchestra? I suppose I've never analyzed that way, which is why I ask. Just curious.i'm a record producer by trade and even though i've studied quite a bit i really like be able to hear all the bits separately which is how I learn how it all fits togetherActually, that's what I do too. I've found it invaluable to copy the different parts into a notation program and then mute different sections to see how the smaller parts fit into the whole. It's basically just reverse engineering a score to figure out how it works. Takes a little work, but that's part of what helps ingrain it into your thinking—just like kids writing lines over existing lines to learn cursive or whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keyes 18 Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 By the way, anyone can help me in find the EXACT kind of Music Paper John Williams use for his sketches?I think that for old scores he used the one produced by PACIFIC, nowadays he should use the one produced by VALLE MUSIC. Any clue about that? And how many Staves are on each page of his sketches? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Each page is generally divided into 2 8-line halves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TownerFan 4,983 Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 By the way, anyone can help me in find the EXACT kind of Music Paper John Williams use for his sketches?I think that for old scores he used the one produced by PACIFIC, nowadays he should use the one produced by VALLE MUSIC. Any clue about that? And how many Staves are on each page of his sketches?http://www.judygreenmusic.com/?p=order&f=MItem M-307 (8/8 stave, 9.5x12.5) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 AFAIK Williams still uses Pacific Music Paper's 16 line (8x2) sketch pads.http://www.pacificmusicpapers.com/pmpmusicpaper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TownerFan 4,983 Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 I stand corrected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keyes 18 Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 I've seen a couple of old Williams Sketches and this is the paper used.But I've talked with Conrad Pope and he said he use the same Paper that Williams use and is from Vallemusic,so i'masking anyone have a sketche of a very recent Williams score so we can see wich paper it is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 The first page of 'The Fire Scene' from MEMOIRS OF A GEISHA.This is the score paper that Conrad Pope orchestrates with - Judy Green P-578. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jilal 569 Posted October 26, 2014 Share Posted October 26, 2014 Does anyone know the dimensions of the 8x2 sketch pads sold by Pacific Music Papers? Valle Music lists the size of theirs as being 12 x 16 1/4 inch, but I'm not sure whether these correlate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxFanfare 1 Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 I know I'm digging an old topic, but I'd really appreciate if someone could post here the exact reference of Williams' sketch paper type. Did someone know the exact size of this (in inches or cm)? crlbrg 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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