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Harmonic Progressions in Williams


filmmusic

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this symbol V doesn't stand for a dob-mib-sol?

It does. Forget about Phygrian mode here. It's just a passing chord, designed to give an off-kilter feel to the cadence (don't forget that B/Cb is a tritone away from F - bisecting the octave).

The brilliance and guile of this theme is how it presents a post-war vision of Americana, gradually subverted in subtle ways. All is not right.

This is one such example.

i just try to justify chords in relation with modes..

It's wiser to justify modes in relation to chords.

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this symbol V doesn't stand for a dob-mib-sol?

It does. Forget about Phygrian mode here. It's just a passing chord, designed to give an off-kilter feel to the cadence (don't forget that B/Cb is a tritone away from F - bisecting the octave).

The brilliance and guile of this theme is how it presents a post-war vision of Americana, gradually subverted in subtle ways. All is not right.

This is one such example.

well, i don't see any wrong if i reinterprete 2 chords from a related parallel mode. (just as I said about those VIIs that are myxolydian)..

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I disagree that F is the tonic in this bar. The last bar of the first page is a sequence of the previous bar, which goes VI-V-IV-III in F major. When the last bar begins as a sequence, I think we are inclined to hear A-flat as the tonic, so the same progression in that key, VI-V-IV- then an altered version of III (borrowed from A-flat minor, or Aeolian). The next bar then gets right back to F minor, starting once again on the VI chord, as though trying to correct the shift into A-flat.

If we hear the second last bar with F as tonic, how can we NOT hear A-flat as tonic in the last bar?

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I try to keep the piece in one tonality, and not to change just for one bar.. (yes, it's indeed a harmonic chain as we call it here)

by the way, the last 2nd bar, is VI III IV III

and it's heard with F as tonic, not as an isolated bar, but because before it there are 12 bars preceding in F major.. (and it's kind of repetition of previous bars) So i don't think we should isolate the last bar and say it's e.g in A flat.

I hear both in relation with the whole piece..

Listen to the piece:

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Again, I don't think looking at this from a modal perspective reveals much about how Williams wrote this music. A general observation about Williams' "Americana "-writing, is its proneness for pulls toward tonalities in a darker direction of the cycle of fifths ( i.e. Eb, Ab, Db, Gb whithin an F major context), but this music isn't modally

conceived. Rather, any note could be harmonized with any chord it may belong to (especially at cadential points). This is what lends a darker hue to the music, a "grittier" feel.

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I try to keep the piece in one tonality, and not to change just for one bar.. (yes, it's indeed a harmonic chain as we call it here)

by the way, the last 2nd bar, is VI III IV III

and it's heard with F as tonic, not as an isolated bar, but because before it there are 12 bars preceding in F major.. (and it's kind of repetition of previous bars) So i don't think we should isolate the last bar and say it's e.g in A flat.

I hear both in relation with the whole piece..

Listen to the piece:

You are correct about the III chord in the 2nd last bar - sorry about that. But that doesn't change the fact that the last bar is a sequence of the 2nd last, as I think you agree. So what we're really debating here is the key, not the chords.

I urge you to try this musical experiment: in the 2nd last bar, instead of the last chord, play a 1st-inversion F chord. It sounds like the tonic because or course it is. Now in the last bar, instead of the last chord, play an A-flat major chord. Would you agree this sounds like the tonic?

I don't think you should worry about having your analysis change keys for one bar. If it happens in the music, our analysis should reflect that. Not doing so seems to me a case of forcing the music to fit the theory rather than the other way around!

Listening to the piece on YouTube was the first thing I did before responding to your JFK question. It's my modus operandi. :)

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I had tried this:

last chord of last bar: instead of dob-mib-solb, i played a do-mib-sol which felt really natural but was leading to Lab major (since the whole progression of the bar appears naturally there) and also it was a truer sequence to the previous bar..

And i thought Williams wanted to avoid that (going to Lab major), that's why he lowered the whole chord a semitone..

you're right though about that tonic in 2nd last bar (instead of III).

In the orchestra rendition of the theme (which is in Mib major), in that same bar, the last chord is a 1st inversion tonic.

it's actually VI V IV I6

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Yes, using III (C-Eb-G) for the last chord of the last bar would be an exact sequence - I don't disagree there. Just about what the tonic is. And I don't disagree about avoiding the tonic chord either. I think the last chord of the last bar is that, and especially with the alterations, gives the "off-kilter" feel Prometheus mentioned. I'm just wondering if you would consider hearing A-flat as a tonic there. We can of course have progressions that are in a key without sounding the tonic chord of that key.

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yes, lab does sound as tonic in the last bar.

Since all the similar bars in the piece beging with VI, it seems natural to beging here with a VI too in Lab major.

Then ,how will you justify the whole bar being in Lab major?

because in the Heartbeeps theme when I tried to reinterprete 5-6 bars in another tonic (III), you all said that the passage is in the tonic of the theme (I).

edit: the thing i want to adopt in my harmonic analyses is this:

if any series of chords doesn't clearly lead to a modulation, i try as i can to interprete those chords within the given tonic (or parallel modes)

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The point is, even though an isolated passage of a few bars belongs to a different key center, in Williams' writing, all tonal shifts may just as well belong to the tonic in a larger scheme. In other words, any note, any chord, any sonority would in this case still gravitate towards F.

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Then ,how will you justify the whole bar being in Lab major?

because in the Heartbeeps theme when I tried to reinterprete 5-6 bars in another tonic (III), you all said that the passage is in the tonic of the theme (I).

Well, in Heartbeeps, there was only that one weird chord you asked about. Apart from that, there were no other notes outside of the G major key of that passage. So I didn't hear any reinterpretation in the key.

Here, there are several notes outside of F major that appear all of a sudden. All the chromatic notes belong to A-flat major (besides the last chord) and I hear A-flat as a tonic because it is a sequence of the previous bar, where F was the tonic.

The point is, even though an isolated passage of a few bars belongs to a different key center, in Williams' writing, all tonal shifts may just as well belong to the tonic in a larger scheme. In other words, any note, any chord, any sonority would in this case still gravitate towards F.

(Y) Yes, I agree. That's why the harmonic shift in the last bar of the 1st page sounds darker and "grittier" as you say. The great thing about harmony is that it works on several different levels at once. On the surface, we can hear A-flat major, but on the larger level, the flat III key of F major.

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A lot of what me we're talking about here is equivocal in a way. I talked about it moving to the parallel minor - F minor, which is of course the relative minor of Ab Major. I guess I forgot about the D minor/VI in the adjacent bars

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A lot of what me we're talking about here is equivocal in a way. I talked about it moving to the parallel minor - F minor, which is of course the relative minor of Ab Major. I guess I forgot about the D minor/VI in the adjacent bars

Same key signature, yes, but different tonics. If we consider F minor in way equivalent to Ab major, then we'd have to throw in all the modes with the same key signature as well. And something like Eb mixolydian, which also has the same key signature, doesn't have anything to do with the passage, at least not to my ears. Which is why I like the Ab interpretation. It grounds us around a single axis for that bar.

I still think you're right about the "off-kilter" flavour of the last chord. Nicely put.

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I also think you could look at it as a harmonised whole tone descent, explaining the III in Ab. We expect to hear Cm (like Am in the previous bar) but we get a mediant substitute instead. After all, Cb and Cm both share Eb. It's just a matter lowering the G and C a semitone... and voilà! You've got it.

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I also think you could look at it as a harmonised whole tone descent, explaining the III in Ab. We expect to hear Cm (like Am in the previous bar) but we get a mediant substitute instead. After all, Cb and Cm both share Eb. It's just a matter lowering the G and C a semitone... and voilà! You've got it.

Yes, I too think that's in there. And strings of parallel whole tones always give me that feeling of unease, like I've been winded and I'm waiting to catch my breath again. The whole tone scale is the ultimate example of that.

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I'm not sure how helpful it is to analyse the passage in question in light of a lydian modality. The passage is not truly lydian, nor is it truly a case of modal writing. Rather, like so often with Williams, it is a matter of shifting freely (and often!) between various "modalities" -in

fact, so freely and frequently, it is probably more accurate to describe it as "free chromaticism" (in a tonal context).

Actually, this is true of all the examples in this

thread so far.

THIS...

An overall comment: I think that in general, the idea of confining John Williams' music to traditional theoretical concepts, in a sense, misses the point. His music is tonal, yes, but the idea of "free-chromaticism" is a good one. We must also remember that he is a jazz pianist as well. Oftentimes, what CAN be described as lydian this, or V/V/V/V/V that, could be taken in a simpler context. Sometimes, it is a variant on a traditional theoretical concept, but does not adhere to the qualities. In the original example of this thread, yes it is possible he is writing a variant on some sort of +6 chord, to be resolved quickly to V and then I. However, his usage is a half-diminished chord, which is often traditionally considered to have no tendencies of resolution. Herrmann used these all of the time for this reason. But then, there is the question of HOW he moves the individual notes. Free chromaticism is the best way to describe it. It is a simple question of tension and resolution, the constructs of which are relative, based on a clear idea of where the piece is headed harmonically.

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I'm not sure how helpful it is to analyse the passage in question in light of a lydian modality. The passage is not truly lydian, nor is it truly a case of modal writing. Rather, like so often with Williams, it is a matter of shifting freely (and often!) between various "modalities" -in

fact, so freely and frequently, it is probably more accurate to describe it as "free chromaticism" (in a tonal context).

Actually, this is true of all the examples in this

thread so far.

THIS...

An overall comment: I think that in general, the idea of confining John Williams' music to traditional theoretical concepts, in a sense, misses the point. His music is tonal, yes, but the idea of "free-chromaticism" is a good one. We must also remember that he is a jazz pianist as well. Oftentimes, what CAN be described as lydian this, or V/V/V/V/V that, could be taken in a simpler context. Sometimes, it is a variant on a traditional theoretical concept, but does not adhere to the qualities. In the original example of this thread, yes it is possible he is writing a variant on some sort of +6 chord, to be resolved quickly to V and then I. However, his usage is a half-diminished chord, which is often traditionally considered to have no tendencies of resolution. Herrmann used these all of the time for this reason. But then, there is the question of HOW he moves the individual notes. Free chromaticism is the best way to describe it. It is a simple question of tension and resolution, the constructs of which are relative, based on a clear idea of where the piece is headed harmonically.

You raise a good point - that the things we're trying to describe in this thread don't completely match up with traditional theoretical concepts. If I may build on that, I think that there is something to be gained by determining just how much something in Williams deviates from any traditional concept. Take the Lydian passage, for example. To call something Lydian means that it has a scale that is like major but with a raised scale degree 4, and that it centers on the first of that scale as a tonic. In that passage, we do have the raised 4, but the feeling of D as a tonic is weakened because we don't have a clear tonic-function chord. But then, no pitch seems like a clear tonic in the middle of this passage, so nothing strongly challenges D as the governing tonic. In other words, we don't get the feeling that a new tonic has arrived, but only that D as a tonic is now somewhat questionable. So the passage is closest to Lydian without being 100% Lydian the way we usually define it. In other words, it tends towards Lydian.

The first example given in this thread can be thought of in a similar way. There is no question that the chord is a half-diminished seventh, but it is not at all used in a way that is similar to traditional uses of half-diminished sevenths. But it does have three of four notes in common with the French sixth - only the F# differs (which would be G otherwise). And it resolves to V, the way a French sixth does. So it ends up sounding close to an augmented sixth without being one in the way that traditional theory tells us. Again, it tends towards an augmented sixth.

My point is that I think the traditional concepts we use to describe music ought not to be thought of as neatly defined boxes into which a musical passage either fits or doesn't, but rather as a spectrum of possibilities, with the traditional concept at the center, and degrees of deviations radiating out from it. We can therefore think of odd passages as being a variation of the traditional concept rather than something completely different.

To say that such passages use "free chromaticism" is certainly not inaccurate, but I like to think that we can add to the terms we use rather than subtract from them. If we are unwilling to extend the meaning of traditional terms, then "free chromaticism" becomes a catch-all that prevents us from using more specific terms to describe odd passages. In other words, I don't mind "free chromaticism" as long as one is willing to explain more precisely what one means by it. This is not to criticize the term itself, but only to say that I think we should go further to try to explain exactly what is happening in this wonderfully rich music.

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"Free Chromaticism" is actually a much more accurate term than anything essentially aiming at looking at Williams' tonalities in a strictly modal perspective, or from the perspective of functional harmony. Simply because Williams almost never writes exclusively modal, nor is his music harmonically "functional" in any traditional sense.

In other words, one might be "missing the point" in any attempt to find the logic behind Williams' melodic and harmonic constructs. At least if the point is understanding how Williams actually constructs these passages.

Yes, we must have a complete and thorough understanding of modalities and functional harmony (and a whole host of other things), but the real reason why this information is helpful, is so we can observe how -in this case- Williams doesn't adhere to them, doesn't abide by them. The truth of the matter, is that this knowledge (and a great deal more!) becomes internalized as a myriad of sonic options, and gradually, through our experience writing and writing and writing, forms a language that gives us the freedom to shape music naturally and freely. This is how Williams' technique evolved, and it is how we all can evolve as practitioners of the craft of writing (and analyzing!) music.

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the real reason why this information is helpful, is so we can observe how -in this case- Williams doesn't adhere to them, doesn't abide by them.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. He doesn't adhere to Lydian exactly, and he doesn't adhere to augmented sixths exactly. As you say, this is a big part of Williams' style. I completely agree with this.

What I disagree with is using one term to describe everything odd that happens in his music. For example, saying that the Lydian passage isn't Lydian, it's free chromaticism. And that the half-diminished augmented sixth isn't an augmented sixth, it's free chromaticism. If I asked you to compose a passage in the Williams style and said you should use free chromaticism if you want to sound like him, what would you think I meant? You might have an idea of what you think it means, but that might not match what I think it means. You see the problem. It's not precise enough on its own. It should be something specific enough that we know what it is before we say whether we agree or disagree with it.

Maybe we could say, "here are the various types of free chromaticism Williams uses." Then we'd be on to something. However, from the responses in this thread that oppose the Lydian view of the Born on the Fourth of July excerpt, all I seen is the free chromaticism label. I'm willing to see it another way if I have something more specific to go on.

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I'm using the term "free chromaticism" as a general stylistic observation only. A Lydian passage is a Lydian passage, and an augmented 6th is precisely that. Problems arise, however, when we attempt to analyse music with analytical tools that aren't sufficiently calibrated: A functional harmonic analysis works better for music written before 1900 than music written after 1930, and purely modal writing is found more frequently in pop, jazz and folk music than in contemporary tonal classical music.

It would be more accurate to look at Williams' harmonic and melodic constructs from a perspective of absloute chromaticism, meaning all chromatic pitches belong to the tonic (!). His harmonic "extensions" are rarely fixed, and as such, can seldom truly be labelled modal. A section of a piece might seemingly be Hungarian Minor, but then suddenly Williams might employ a raised 6th, or a flattened 7th, or a flat 2, and the "modality" shifts. An example would be the following harmonization of a C minor (aeolian) scale:

C (Cm) - D (Ab#11/B)- Eb (Cb/Bb)- F (F/A)- G (Dbm#11/Ab)- Ab (Ebadd11/G)- Bb (Bb 1st inversion chord on top of a D 1st inversion chord; spelled upwards F#,D,A,D,F,Bb)- C (Cm, or for good measure: Gb#11/A)

This is precisely the kind of harmonic density Williams might emply on even a fairly straightforward tonal context. One way to look at it, is that the horizontal and vertical tonalities/modalities don't necessarily align. If it would help us, we could see the first two chords as belonging to Harmonic Minor, or C whole/half diminished (octatonic), but from the third chord on, this would no longer be the case.

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His harmonic "extensions" are rarely fixed, and as such, can seldom truly be labelled modal. A section of a piece might seemingly be Hungarian Minor, but then suddenly Williams might employ a raised 6th, or a flattened 7th, or a flat 2, and the "modality" shifts.

Yes, I've noticed this too. It seems to me this is the kind of thing that happens in a lot of his action cues.

As for the hypothetical harmonization of a C minor scale, I see what you mean, but it might be more helpful to look at a real example so we can say for sure what happens in this music. Perhaps you could suggest one along the lines of the kinds of chords you give?

So, from this perspective, how would you analyze the Fourth of July excerpt earlier in the thread?

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Functionally, I think it would make sense to analyze the 'BotFoJ' excerpt as being in the key of F# minor. The D major chord as a 'I' chord immediately re-establishes itself as VI, and we have the following progression: VI-I-V-VII-IV-I-VII(min)6-IV6-VI.

But in reality, and pertaining to my previous statement, I don't really think of this music as 'functional' in a stricter sense, and feel for instance that Williams could have just as well substituted the VII (E) chord with a II (G#min) chord, and the penultimate I chord with a bII6 chord (Gmin#11/Bb), with the passage still retaining its emotionality and directionality. Another way of putting it, is that the harmonic 'lingo' of the excerpt at hand deals more with color and "overall harmonic feel" (a sort of 'unspecific' modality, certainly 'religioso' in ethos, and rather archaic in its harmonic conception), than functional pull (although there is, perhaps, a gravitational pull between VI (D) and I (F#min)).

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I'm using the term "free chromaticism" as a general stylistic observation only. A Lydian passage is a Lydian passage, and an augmented 6th is precisely that. Problems arise, however, when we attempt to analyse music with analytical tools that aren't sufficiently calibrated: A functional harmonic analysis works better for music written before 1900 than music written after 1930, and purely modal writing is found more frequently in pop, jazz and folk music than in contemporary tonal classical music.

It would be more accurate to look at Williams' harmonic and melodic constructs from a perspective of absloute chromaticism, meaning all chromatic pitches belong to the tonic (!). His harmonic "extensions" are rarely fixed, and as such, can seldom truly be labelled modal. A section of a piece might seemingly be Hungarian Minor, but then suddenly Williams might employ a raised 6th, or a flattened 7th, or a flat 2, and the "modality" shifts. An example would be the following harmonization of a C minor (aeolian) scale:

I think we are making a "fuss" of what terms we will use..

if you use the term "free chromaticism", and I use the term "polymodality (Polymodality involves two or more different modes on the same or different tonal centers [from Persichetti's 20th century Harmony), we can be both right..

(that doesn't mean of course that we only can have 2 or more modes in a row. it means that a composer has 6 or 7 (if we pick the basic ones) modes at his disposal and can pick whatever chords from these modes to enrich his harmony.)

and really, i can't see all the trouble here aroused about these Williams passages.

It would be justified if I had put an extract of Rite of Spring or something.

But these passages are extremely tonal. They are not more complex than late 19th or early 20th century.

about the BOTFOJ:

all things must be taken into account when we analyze, not only harmony by itself. if you look at the form of the piece it's a period of antecedent-consequent.

So there is a VI chord in the beginning of both of them? i don't see it at all..

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"Polymodality" still implies that the music is modally conceived, which I don't think is typically the case with most of Williams' writing.

"Free chromaticism" is a term that describes all aspects of Williams' style, be it highly tonal or highly chromatically saturated, with equal precision: It merely indicates that the music freely employs a whole host of various harmonic procedures (often at the same time) without adhering rigidly to any of them.

Re. "BotFoJ": my analysis of the given section argues that the D major I chord becomes a VI chord to a new I (F#min). This is completely unproblematic, and clears up any modal confusion that may (or may not) arise when we look at that passage from a D major perspective.

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Is there any academic musicological article, or book, or dissertation that I can read on "free chromaticism"?

i'd be interested..

from a quick search on the net i can't find anything..

from some references here and there I gathered that the term leans more towards atonality, or a passage that has no tonal center...

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Well, I use the term descriptively, and it works for tonal as well as atonal music, again because what it describes is simply a lack of rigidity regarding procedures/techniques. I find it a precise description of Williams' overall harmonic strategy.

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and really, i can't see all the trouble here aroused about these Williams passages.

It would be justified if I had put an extract of Rite of Spring or something.

But these passages are extremely tonal. They are not more complex than late 19th or early 20th century.

Yes. While Marcus' point is well taken, I think it applies more to the kinds of things you see in fast action cues. Interesting that the themes you've been asking about, filmmusic, are indeed very tonal. I wonder if that's something you're exploring in your work - i.e., the difference in style between themes and other types of cues.

about the BOTFOJ:

all things must be taken into account when we analyze, not only harmony by itself. if you look at the form of the piece it's a period of antecedent-consequent.

So there is a VI chord in the beginning of both of them? i don't see it at all..

I have no problem with the way you analyzed this to begin with. I like the idea that we stay grounded in D as tonic through the passage. It nicely shows how the tonality is weakened in the middle of the passage by the use of the secondary chords of a key, i.e., II, III, VI, and VII, rather than the primary ones of I, IV, and V. So, to me, it wouldn't matter whether you called the chords with G# altered chords in D major, or chords borrowed from D Lydian. They're the same thing.

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and really, i can't see all the trouble here aroused about these Williams passages.

It would be justified if I had put an extract of Rite of Spring or something.

But these passages are extremely tonal. They are not more complex than late 19th or early 20th century.

Yes. While Marcus' point is well taken, I think it applies more to the kinds of things you see in fast action cues. Interesting that the themes you've been asking about, filmmusic, are indeed very tonal. I wonder if that's something you're exploring in your work - i.e., the difference in style between themes and other types of cues.

No, only the construction of themes. If i studied the whole music i would never end! ;-)

another one, that seems to be in the same league with all the rest! Just one chord in a tonal environment that is a bit difficult to explain/or has different meanings according to each.

I put the Roman Numerals having in mind that we are in F major.

the IV ones are borrowed from the parallel minor.

If we re-interprete that whole passage being in D minor, the chord in question can be a #III (borrowed from the parallel major)

But if anyone accepts that we are in F major (as I do), how can we interprete it? a raised tonic? (this explanation seems a bit akward)

sabrinan.jpg

This passage is from 1.40-2.05:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqxrMa7eUAU

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This part of the theme is in D minor, where most of the gravitational pull exists between I (Dmin) and VI (Bbmin). The F#min chord is a passing chord (correctly identified as #III) mediating between I and VI. Only when we return to the opening quartal chords (last bar of the given example) is the music in F major (VI of D minor serving as minor variant of IV leading back to original I (F) ).

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Indeed. And this type of harmonic chain derives much of its inherent logic from its tertiary construction. Examples of Williams' employment of such progressions are too numerous to mention (but I would like to add that F#minor, which in this context is the chord furthest removed from any home key, would be another Williams trademark were it to resolve to F major (bIImin-I). A typical cadence would then be Bbm-F#min-F).

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This part of the theme is in D minor, where most of the gravitational pull exists between I (Dmin) and VI (Bbmin). The F#min chord is a passing chord (correctly identified as #III) mediating between I and VI. Only when we return to the opening quartal chords (last bar of the given example) is the music in F major (VI of D minor serving as minor variant of IV leading back to original I (F) ).

So, the first time (4 first bars of this passage) goes again for a moment in F major, and then goes back again to Re minor?

Because I hear the F major of the 4th bar as a tonic. Not as a III.

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If you wanted to keep it in F major, I would probably call it minor bII (written enharmonically). But It probably doesn't matter so much what you call it because no single chord symbol would totally explain everything that's going on. To see the tertiary progression Prometheus points out, you would need to think enharmonically with some chord no matter what symbol you choose. And Marcus is certainly correct in pointing out the other keys touched on here. But as I think I said earlier in this thread, harmony exists on several different levels at once, so a passage like this can be thought of as in D minor or Bb minor on the surface level, and in F major on the larger level. It seems to me you want to emphasize the larger level, so either #I or minor bII I guess would be your choices.

To me, the most interesting thing about the progression is that is doesn't sound quite as jolting as it looks like it should. I mean, what is an F# minor chord doing in an F major passage? That, I think, is best explained by the relationships between each of the chords. From the D minor chord to the Bb minor chord is, in D minor, i-vi, so the VI has been borrowed from its parallel minor. And from the Bb minor chord to the F# minor chord, we have the same relationship - i-vi, with the latter chord borrowed from its parallel minor. Then from the F# minor chord to the D minor chord, the same thing happens once again. In other words, you could describe it visually this way:

Bar: 5 6 7

in D minor: i - vi - - i

in Bb minor: i - vi

in F# minor: i - vi

That way, you can actually see both Prometheus' tertiary progression and Marcus' pull between different keys, and also you can see why the progression works well despite looking very odd.

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(Re:Filmmusic's previous comment)

Given that the preceding part is in F, our ears will tend to pick up on its tonic feel. Were we to "erase" in our minds the part prior to where your example starts, D minor would be harder to challenge as its (temporary) tonality.

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Sorry Ludwig, I was confused.

You say those chords (VI) are borrowed from the parallel minor? which one?

We are in minor each time (D minor, Bb minor, F# minor).

i guess they are just altered VI (with their 3rd flattened).

eg. in D minor we would have sib-re-fa, but now we have sib-reb-fa

edit: oh, i get it! you mean the sib-reb-fa is borrowed from the parallel minor of Sib major! ;-)

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Sorry Ludwig, I was confused.

You say those chords (VI) are borrowed from the parallel minor? which one?

We are in minor each time (D minor, Bb minor, F# minor).

What Ludwig means is that Bbm is borrowed from Bb's (VI) parallel minor (Bbm), and so on, forming a i-vi chain progressing in major thirds (which divide the octave in three) back to the tonic.

In terms of function, the vi chord (most famously used by Williams in the Imperial March) is a kind of altered of substitute dominant. Although I'm wary about bringing up scales and modes at the moment, Williams often uses it within the context of the harmonic minor, sometimes in second inversion with a #11 (i.e. Eb/Ab/B/D to Cm).

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"In terms of function, the vi chord (most famously used by Williams in the Imperial March) is a kind of altered of substitute dominant"

Hi Please could you explain this a little more ? The Imperial March example.

t

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"In terms of function, the vi chord (most famously used by Williams in the Imperial March) is a kind of altered of substitute dominant"

Hi Please could you explain this a little more ? The Imperial March example.

t

The Ebm (which already shares one common tone with D - Gb/F#) replacing the dominant, and serving a similar function. Likewise with the raised sub-dominant (C#m) that occurs in the piece.

It's all simply to serve highly chromatic, Major/minor nature of the melody.

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i'm not sure how to ask this question without sounding silly...but is the purpose of harmonising with these sorts of chords to make things sound more...Diatonic !....for want of a better word.

T

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i'm not sure how to ask this question without sounding silly...but is the purpose of harmonising with these sorts of chords to make things sound more...Diatonic !....for want of a better word.

I think the purpose of the harmonization in the Imperial March is to avoid sounding more normal (as it would with real dominant chords) and therefore emphasize that something is "amiss" with the Darkside. The first section of the march is made up almost entire of minor chords - a strong signal in itself. But more than that, these minor chords are distorted versions of what "should have been". The first four bars after the intro, for example, oscillate between the minor bvi and i instead of a more normal V and I. Likewise, the next eight bars go from i to minor #iv and minor #v, then back to i - a distorted version of a normal i-iv-V-i progression. Again, something is amiss with the Empire.

The minor bvi of the opening is even more interesting because, as Prometheus points out, it has the leading note F# in it, so perhaps "should" be harmonized with a dominant. But the use of the minor bvi chord forces that note not to be heard as a leading note F#, but rather as its enharmonic Gb. We hear it as part of the Eb minor chord, bvi. And actually, in the third and fourth bars of the theme (again after the intro), that bvi chord changes to A-Bb-Eb-Gb above a G pedal. With the A in there, you might think this is more like the dominant-function diminished seventh chord, A-©-Eb-F#(=Gb) with a dissonant added Bb. But because we have been "primed" to hear the Bb-Eb-Gb as minor bvi in the first two bars, that dominant potential gets absorbed, so it ends up still sounding like bvi with a gritty dissonance. It almost seems to be saying that the influence of the evil Empire is so strong that it swallows up even the faintest hope of things becoming "normal" again. Doom and gloom!

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just a question in case anyone knows:

i have many books that refer to Quartal Harmony, but none analyses the chords in a passage. How are they analysed? can we put normal numerals?

i mean in a book it suggested that we can form these chords from a scale.

so, in a do scale:

do-fa-sib would be I

re-sol-do: II

mi-la-re: III and so on

but if we have altered and chromatic chords too (always quartal), i guess we're in for a mess, right?

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In everything I've come across about quartal harmony, I've never seen roots or Roman numerals attached to them. The Persichetti book gives a good reason for this:

"Chords by perfect fourths are ambiguous in that, like all chords built by equidistant intervals (diminished seventh chords or augmented triads), any member can function as the root. The indifference of this rootless harmony to tonality places the burden of key verification upon the voice with the most active melodic line."

Whenever I've analyzed this kind of harmony, I've just said it was quartal and left it at that.

What example are you thinking of?

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the main theme from Sleepers.

the funny thing is that i built these quartal chords on C aeolian (it seems that the theme melody is in this mode), and I think it works!

Every chord used is one of those..

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  • 1 month later...

i just have a question.

I am just trying to analyse Hedwig's theme.

MN0040766.gif

Frank Lehman says here that that chord (3rd to last bar) is a bVI Fr aug6

http://www.jwfan.com/?p=3563

am I so mistaken that i see it as a major II (or borrowed from Lydian) with a 7th? (and that sol as a 9th)

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I guess Lehman didn't see the C#. Since the chord is a dominant seventh (well, ninth with the G), it's hard for me not to hear it as V4/3 of V. Lydian II with 7th would technically be the same thing, but I would point to the context - the passage is essentially in E minor and calling something a Lydian II chord is to me more convincing in major-mode contexts, where we can hear the complete mode expressed by the surrounding chords rather than through just one chord.

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Isn't it just the V7/V? With the G as part of a V7 which is not harmonised.

yes, that's what Ludwig said more or less..

ok, thanks.

yes, i didn't mean a lydian chord, i just wanted to explain the la#.

well, since it didn't go to the dominant, that's why i tried to explain it as a II.

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