Sex, Drugs and Lydian II#s

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Here's my attempt at analysing the first four bars of John Williams's Island Fanfare theme from JURASSIC PARK. Couple of secondary dominants here along with a strange cadence...

I'll let you have a go.

[filmmusic 1,822]

thanks..

well, i wouldn't say that the sib in the II is a 7th which you wrote , it's a pedal tonic, but ok..

by the way, i don't know what system to adopt..

for example others would write III# - VI as V/VI - VI.

[wanner251 17]

I - II with I pedal - vi - iii6 - IV - vi - iii6 - V/vi - vi - IV - V/iii

I think the "cadence" at the end is not really a cadence, but just a way to transition back to I using chromaticism. Sort of a V substitute but only being a half-step away from I... Conventional theory will not hold JW.

[Ludwig 1,120]

Nice work to all. Below I've added my analysis to Prometheus'. Just to explain the notation...

What I noticed is that there are a lot of strange chords in this theme. But then, there are really only 3 functions a chord can have in a key: tonic (T), subdominant (S), or dominant (D). In themes from classical music, the tonic function is usually "prolonged" or stretched out by intervening chords, then there is a cadence. Williams does the same thing here, but with a lot of substitute chords. Of course, in classical music, tonic, subdominant, and dominant functions are usually given by the I, IV, and V chords, but as wanner251 mentioned, the last chord in the theme is a V substitute. Basically, substitute chords have two notes (perhaps altered with accidentals) in common with the original chord. Here are all the substitute chords in a key:

vi - tonic substitute

ii - subdominant substitute

VII# - dominant substitute

III# (= V/vi) - dominant substitute

The III⁶ chords in the passage I regard as passing chords because of the passing motion in the bass, so I give them a (P) marking.

I find it fascinating that there is only a single I chord, two IV chords, and absolutely no V chords! Apart from I, V is the most common chord in classical music (hence its name as the dominant), so it's very odd not to see any here, and odd to have so few tonic and subdominant chords. Williams uses substitute chords instead. This is probably what gives it a sound that is so unique but still somehow coherent and solidly supported.

Great example, Prometheus. Thanks for sharing!

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Thanks for the terrific responses! Only thing that I'd add is that I'd call the VII#7 not only a dominant substitute, but an approach chord.

I find it fascinating that there is only a single I chord, two IV chords, and absolutely no V chords! Apart from I, V is the most common chord in classical music (hence its name as the dominant), so it's very odd not to see any here, and odd to have so few tonic and subdominant chords. Williams uses substitute chords instead. This is probably what gives it a sound that is so unique but still somehow coherent and solidly supported.

Again, I think this is John Williams jazz and pop background showing, along with his admiration of the late Alex North (who'd passed away two years before). I think a clue is in what Williams writes for the synthesiser line in R3P2 The Dinosaurs (when we first see the Brachiosaurus) - "Very deep pulse - Between 'pop' and religioso."

[Ludwig 1,120]

Again, I think this is John Williams jazz and pop background showing, along with his admiration of the late Alex North (who'd passed away two years before). I think a clue is in what Williams writes for the synthesiser line in R3P2 The Dinosaurs (when we first see the Brachiosaurus) - "Very deep pulse - Between 'pop' and religioso."

Fascinating. It's truly amazing how Williams is able to blend both the pop/jazz and classical traditions together so seamlessly. I suppose that's partly what makes Williams' style so unique and therefore recognizable. Composers are usually either one or the other with very little overlap.

[filmmusic 1,822]

I still haven't understood something.

Eg in this theme: #II and V/V is the same thing?

when do we write it as a Double dominant and when do we write it as a chord borrowed from a mode?

[Ludwig 1,120]

I still haven't understood something.

Eg in this theme: #II and V/V is the same thing?

when do we write it as a Double dominant and when do we write it as a chord borrowed from a mode?

It depends on how it resolves. If it goes to V, then it's obviously V/V. But it's when it goes to something else like I, VI (as here), or even IV (as in Superman's flying theme) that it would best be considered a #II borrowed from the Lydian mode.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Maybe we should consider the A as V/V with the V (D) being the secondary dominant of Gm - the substitute tonic. A-D-Gm/Bb forms a pretty neat chain. Plus in the end credits, the hymnal theme begins and ends in D, followed by the island fanfare in Bb.

[Ludwig 1,120]

Maybe we should consider the A as V/V with the V (D) being the secondary dominant of Gm - the substitute tonic. A-D-Gm/Bb forms a pretty neat chain. Plus in the end credits, the hymnal theme begins and ends in D, followed by the island fanfare in Bb.

As you know, I'm a big fan of considering harmony in terms of tonic, dominant, or subdominant function. If we call the A chord V/V, that changes it from dominant to subdominant if G is our substitute tonic. Maybe if we heard it going from A to D to G, we could more easily hear it as subdominant. Is there a spot you had in mind for the chain you mentioned?

[filmmusic 1,822]

I still haven't understood something.

Eg in this theme: #II and V/V is the same thing?

when do we write it as a Double dominant and when do we write it as a chord borrowed from a mode?

It depends on how it resolves. If it goes to V, then it's obviously V/V. But it's when it goes to something else like I, VI (as here), or even IV (as in Superman's flying theme) that it would best be considered a #II borrowed from the Lydian mode.

SO, we consider it a double dominant only if it goes to V, right?

I'm with you here, but in many harmony books that i see, they don't have lydians etc.,they always mark them as double dominants (which they don't always have to go to V).

Eg here this V/V - VI is like a V-II (in F) which is an acceptable connection.

But of course we aren't going in F, so i guess the #II is better.

I just don't understand why the harmony books don't use the borrowing from modes symbolization.

[Ludwig 1,120]

SO, we consider it a double dominant only if it goes to V, right?

I'm with you here, but in many harmony books that i see, they don't have lydians etc.,they always mark them as double dominants (which they don't always have to go to V).

Eg here this V/V - VI is like a V-II (in F) which is an acceptable connection.

But of course we aren't going in F, so i guess the #II is better.

I just don't understand why the harmony books don't use the borrowing from modes symbolization.

What books are you looking at in particular? In Aldwell & Schachter, they regard a D major chord in C major as being a II# chord, an instance of what they call "secondary mixture", so not exactly Lydian, but not a double dominant either. Their definition of secondary mixture is "the alteration of the 3rd of a triad where such alteration does not result from normal mixture."

I have to say I've always disliked this term because it doesn't tell you what it is, only what it isn't. To quote from the British comedy series, Blackadder, it's a bit like Baldrick's definition of "dog" being "not a cat".

[filmmusic 1,822]

well, i was looking at Piston..

harmony is so confusing..

Each theorist has his own system, and you don't know what to pick..

Well even if we call it Lydian, it doesn't mean we're in lydian, it's just that we say this chord appears naturally in that mode.

So i guess it's the same if we say it's a lydian II or a secondary mixture...

So, in the E.T. theme it's better to identify the 2nd chord as a V/V since it goes to V, than a Lydian II, right?

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Maybe we should consider the A as V/V with the V (D) being the secondary dominant of Gm - the substitute tonic. A-D-Gm/Bb forms a pretty neat chain. Plus in the end credits, the hymnal theme begins and ends in D, followed by the island fanfare in Bb.

As you know, I'm a big fan of considering harmony in terms of tonic, dominant, or subdominant function. If we call the A chord V/V, that changes it from dominant to subdominant if G is our substitute tonic. Maybe if we heard it going from A to D to G, we could more easily hear it as subdominant. Is there a spot you had in mind for the chain you mentioned?

Maybe this theme has three tonal centres (or substitute tonics) - Bb, Gm and D, with the harmony flying past each of them, but never crashing - like the InGen helicopter navigating through the mountain peaks of Isla Nublar.

[Ludwig 1,120]

Well even if we call it Lydian, it doesn't mean we're in lydian, it's just that we say this chord appears naturally in that mode.

So i guess it's the same if we say it's a lydian II or a secondary mixture...

Well, you get the same answer if you say it's a Lydian II or a certain type of secondary mixture, but I think they are different in concept, and that makes a difference to the way we perceive it. Calling it Lydian II emphasizes that the scale is the same as major but with a raised ^4. Secondary mixture makes it sound like the point was to turn a minor triad into a major one, which has to do with the chord and not the scale.

Personally, I feel that these chords in Williams are usually best thought of as the Lydian II because they usually don't go to V.

So, in the E.T. theme it's better to identify the 2nd chord as a V/V since it goes to V, than a Lydian II, right?

But of course as soon as I say this, you pull out an excellent example to the contrary - well done! When I analyze harmony, I always try to think of it in the larger context. So on the one hand, yes the 2nd chord does go to V, so it could be thought of as V/V just hearing those two chords. But then I think of the rest of the film, and most of the time, that 2nd chord just goes right back to I, so is more of a Lydian II. When we hear it in the big flying theme, we've been primed to hear it as a Lydian chord, but then of course it goes to V, taking the chord in a new direction. This is probably one of those things where we starts off hearing it as one chord (the Lydian II) then we retrospectively hear it as a different chord (V/V) based on what follows.

Regarding it as only a Lydian II or only a V/V I think does not quite capture the way we hear it based on how it fits into the film as a whole. I'd probably analyze it as "Lydian II --> V/V", the arrow meaning that it becomes the second chord.

[filmmusic 1,822]

yes, you're right that it does sound like a Lydian.

After all, the flying theme, comes from the E.T. motif ("the call" as williams refers to - the starting and ending motif of the entire film), which sounds like entirely lydian.

[filmmusic 1,822]

By the way, i just found another #VII (or V/III) in a cadence.

At least there, it's right before a genuine dominant.

In Marion's theme. (at 2.17)

i think it's safe here to say that it's a V/III since it appears again afterwards and leads to III where the theme stands for quite a while

[Ludwig 1,120]

Maybe we should consider the A as V/V with the V (D) being the secondary dominant of Gm - the substitute tonic. A-D-Gm/Bb forms a pretty neat chain. Plus in the end credits, the hymnal theme begins and ends in D, followed by the island fanfare in Bb.

As you know, I'm a big fan of considering harmony in terms of tonic, dominant, or subdominant function. If we call the A chord V/V, that changes it from dominant to subdominant if G is our substitute tonic. Maybe if we heard it going from A to D to G, we could more easily hear it as subdominant. Is there a spot you had in mind for the chain you mentioned?

Maybe this theme has three tonal centres (or substitute tonics) - Bb, Gm and D, with the harmony flying past each of them, but never crashing - like the InGen helicopter navigating through the mountain peaks of Isla Nublar.

I like the idea of multiple tonics, but I don't think they're not all equal in importance (not sure whether you're implying that or not). I would suggest that Bb is still the one overriding key that's structuring the bulk of the cue. The repeat after the A chord helps that interpretation, as does the several returns to the opening in the same key later on. Of course, the fanfare section ends a tone higher in C major, so it's not in Bb throughout, just perhaps for most of it.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Since I've been thinking about chromatic voice leading, I've just noticed the D-Eb-E-F movement in the progression from Gm -> Eb -> A7sus -> A7 to Bb. There's also the way it constantly wavers around D and Eb (D-Gm-Eb-A7sus) until descending to the C# in A7, finally centering on D.

Surely not a coincidence?

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

From Frank Lehman's Hollywood Cadences.

Got one of the chord's wrong...

[InTheCity 140]

I prefer to think of things like this:

If you are in Bb you get all the Gminor chords for free as well.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

A isn't a G minor chord...

[InTheCity 140]

Any 2 Chord is used in minor

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Only a half-diminished 7th (i.e. A-C-D-Eb on Gm) would be diatonic.

[InTheCity 140]

i know but in real life you get all V chords and All II Chords

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

Yikes.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

lol

[InTheCity 140]

ok sure

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

Look dude, it's obvious that when you're writing, you can do whatever the hell you want. But Sharky is looking at things from a strictly academic perspective.

[InTheCity 140]

yeh that wont get you far tbh

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

Far? In which direction?

I don't think about any of this stuff when I write; I imagine it would be crippling. But sometimes it's nice to go in and analyze some shit, no? No harm in it.

[InTheCity 140]

I've studied all that stuff and it is incredibly limiting to the world of diatonic - I would suggest if you wish to be a film composer you do not study this at all - it will hinder your thinking.

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

I think that's radically wrong, honestly. I think the only way that studying common practice theory - which is the only field "limited" to the world of the diatonic; there is plenty of post-tonal stuff to dig into as well - could hinder your thinking is if you have a kind of shoddy mind. Always keep theory in the background of your mind, for analysis (if you're into that kind of thing), and/or as a way of making sure that everything you do is as fluent as it can be. But never try to create by theory. See the quote by Virgil Thomson about Debussy's process that I used to have in my signature.

Now, if what you're saying is that the core of compositional education in universities should be shifted from common practice stuff to a more contemporary and "relevant" idiom, I might agree a bit more. But even in that case, you have to start somewhere, and classical theory is as good a place as any to at least build up a foundation of understanding.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

I've studied all that stuff and it is incredibly limiting to the world of diatonic - I would suggest if you wish to be a film composer you do not study this at all - it will hinder your thinking.

Seriously doubt Williams or Goldsmith thought like this. In order to break the the rules, you've got to know them first, and understand why they work. Only then can you subvert them while making it all sound inevitable and seamless.

Moving on. Luds, what do you make of cadence at end of the consequent half of the period - Cm-D - is that simply iv-V/iv? Is it correct to call these 8 bars a period, even through there's no PAC anywhere, only HCs? Would you call this a progressive parallel period?

[tedfud 38]

i know but in real life you get all V chords and All II Chords

could you please expand on this statement ?

t

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Looking at the B section of the theme, starting in Gm.

i | V7sus/VII - VII | V7sus/V | V7sus | V7sus (HC)

CMCR Type II to Bbm

i - i7 4/2 | V7sus/VII - VII | V7sus/V | V7sus/V - V9sus/V - V/V - V9sus/V

CMCR Type IV to D (a HC on the V of Gm, the original key of the B section?), followed by a Type II down to Bb two bars later.

[tedfud 38]

sorry...are you describing these as secondary dominants ?

t

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Yeah.

[tedfud 38]

gotcha....ok so "in the city's" rather dramatic statement means that in terms of use..... ALL the 2 chords ( weather maj, min. dim, aug, 7th's...etc) and ALL the 5 Chords are fair game and can be used in any key ?

you agree ?

t

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Sort of, yeah. There are no hard and fast rules, just some things sound smoother than others (some chord's mothers are smoother than other chord's... mothers).

Notice when Williams is using a CMCR on a cut or a highlighted action (Hammond grabbing his cane) he tends to use a jarring modulation, with little to no preparation. When it's more subtle and for a continuous shot like Hammond stepping out of the helicopter and walking to the camera (page 19 of the PDF), Williams reiterates and condenses the motive of the thee into I - II# - IV , using it as a cadence for D (which like Lehman's says, has been constantly denied), which then becomes a D7sus, with the G and C anticipating the Eb and Ab chords. Then we get a stepwise modulation to Eb (final statement of B theme) with important added tones (F,A,C) - with Isus and IV, the F and Bb are carried over creating a 6/9 colouring, which also compliments the melody (which uses these intervals). Meanwhile A and G converged resolved to Ab.

[tedfud 38]

Does this include flat and raised seconds ? Neopolitan s for instance

T

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Does this include flat and raised seconds ? Neopolitan s for instance

T

They tend to be smoother than mediant modulations. Take the D -> Eb here, prepared by the sustained chord.

Sort of, yeah. There are no hard and fast rules, just some things sound smoother than others (some chord's mothers are smoother than other chord's... mothers).

Notice when Williams is using a CMCR on a cut or a highlighted action (Hammond grabbing his cane) he tends to use a jarring modulation, with little to no preparation. When it's more subtle and for a continuous shot like Hammond stepping out of the helicopter and walking to the camera (page 19 of the PDF), Williams reiterates and condenses the motive of the thee into I - II# - IV , using it as a cadence for D (which like Lehman's says, has been constantly denied), which then becomes a D7sus, with the G and C anticipating the Eb and Ab chords. Then we get a stepwise modulation to Eb (final statement of B theme) with important added tones (F,A,C) - with Isus and IV, the F and Bb are carried over creating a 6/9 colouring, which also compliments the melody (which uses these intervals). Meanwhile A and G converge to Ab, which then expands down to G for the triumphant C Major chord, with the Eb-F converged on E.

[tedfud 38]

ok i'm having trouble hearing the a in the last chord before the c. I don't have the score for this. Is this close ? The key change into the helicopter is very abrupt

t

[Ludwig 1,120]

Moving on. Luds, what do you make of cadence at end of the consequent half of the period - Cm-D - is that simply iv-V/iv? Is it correct to call these 8 bars a period, even through there's no PAC anywhere, only HCs? Would you call this a progressive parallel period?

Absolutely it's a period. The classical model of having an antecedent ending with a half cadence (or imperfect authentic cadence) and a consequent ending with a perfect authentic cadence is great for classical-period music, but it excludes a lot of film music themes.

Personally, I think that all we need to hear a period is two phrases at least four bars long that start the same way. For me, the endings would define different types of periods. But they're all still periods.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

What's fascinating is how Williams primes the audiences' ears for both the Island Fanfare and the Dinosaur Hymn before they're even heard either. You've got the open fifths, sus chords (especially the V7sus over the tonic pedal), the Lydian progression (Bb-C) in The Entrance of Mr. Hammond and the first part of To The Island which foreshadows the Island Fanfare, while the B theme of the Fanfare and the Jeep Travelling theme both augur the melody and bridge of the Hymn.