The Returnees from CEO3K

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

I've been trying to work out what the woodwind chords are from 2:24 to 2:45. I've always loved this bit. Still, eerie, peaceful, and with the polytonal descending harp scales creating a feeling of disorientation and menace - placing us inside the psyches of the sailors and pilots who are taking their first steps on earth after their abduction, forever changed. .

It's those 6 chords I'm after, along with their voicing.

Hoping Score with his absolute pitch can help me out.

[gkgyver 1,645]

What's the difference between atonal and polytonal?

Sometimes I'm really envious of some of our members' musical knowledge.

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

From 1:42 until the end, in my book probably the most beautiful music John has written. Ever.

I've always loved this bit. Still, eerie, peaceful, and with the polytonal descending harp scales creating a feeling of disorientation and menace - placing us inside the psyches of the sailors and pilots who are taking their first steps on earth after their abduction, forever changed. .

Very well said.

[KK 3,307]

What's the difference between atonal and polytonal?

Sometimes I'm really envious of some of our members' musical knowledge.

The term "atonal" has become a bit vague in its present usage. But basically the difference is this. Polytonal music is based on multiple tonal centers, or the use of more than one key at a time. Atonal music on the other hand doesn't follow the concept of tonal centers and thus lacks any easily identifiable key. The former still follows loosely traditional tonal writing in theory while the other doesn't.

[Ludwig 1,120]

Here's what I got. It's not perfect, but I think the harmonies are basically correct, but there may be a note missing somewhere in the middle. I haven't indicated which instrument does what because that's damn near impossible in this kind of large orchestra recording.

I've also attached an audio file, but it's just piano. Kind of lame, but you get the picture anyway.

By the way, I threw in the 7th chord for free!

Excerpt from CEO3K.mp3

[gkgyver 1,645]

So, polytonal means that more than one key is played at the same time?

[Ludwig 1,120]

So, polytonal means that more than one key is played at the same time?

Exactly. But it doesn't have to be done with two or more different chords at the same time. Herrmann, for example, often sounds a chord (usually major or minor) overtop of a note that has nothing to do with the chord. The chord suggests the tonic chord of one key and the single note suggests another key. Actually, he usually strings several bars like this together so that the single notes together suggest a major or minor chord when played successively.

In cases like this, it's usually considered "bitonal" because there are only two keys. But there can be more than two, in which case it's polytonal - say, with three different chords sounded at the same time, or two chords together with a different bass note. That sort of thing. There is a good example of bitonal music at the end of the Star Wars introduction, where the scrolling text fades away into blackness.

Polytonal music generally relies on the familiar chords of major, minor, dominant 7ths, and so on, whereas atonal music generally relies on chords that emphasize dissonant intervals like 2nds, 4ths, tritones, and 7ths.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Good job, though with the first chord chord I hear something slightly different. Instead of a minor second at the bottom (a sharp dissonance you'd hear - especially in that register) - I hear a major second.

A

E

A

D

C

G

F

And the second chord:

F

E

A

F

D

A

D

There's also a G in the third chord giving it a G9 sound, but I'm not sure where vertically.

[Ludwig 1,120]

Yes, now that I hear it again, there is a major 2nd on the bottom of the first chord, and a G in the second chord. But I disagree that there's a C in the first chord - that makes it sound like some kind of G7 chord with C suspension, which I don't hear. I think it's essentially a D minor chord with added dissonance.

Something else I noticed is that the voices in the lower parts have more dissonance than I initially thought. More than that, one dissonance seems to stay the same through the first five chords - the G-A. The chords are basically tonal chords but with added dissonance - and diatonic dissonance at that. It's hard to pick out the individual notes, but when you try different combinations together (I'm using Sibelius), it sounded very close, if not identical, to the original when I put more dissonance in the lower parts.

Here's my revised version - see what you think:

It won't let me post the audio here too, so let me try it in another post below...

This isn't great audio quality, but it's the only way I could get it to upload, so here it is...Excerpt from CEO3K - 2nd draft.mp3

[gkgyver 1,645]

So, polytonal means that more than one key is played at the same time?

Exactly. But it doesn't have to be done with two or more different chords at the same time. Herrmann, for example, often sounds a chord (usually major or minor) overtop of a note that has nothing to do with the chord. The chord suggests the tonic chord of one key and the single note suggests another key. Actually, he usually strings several bars like this together so that the single notes together suggest a major or minor chord when played successively.

In cases like this, it's usually considered "bitonal" because there are only two keys. But there can be more than two, in which case it's polytonal - say, with three different chords sounded at the same time, or two chords together with a different bass note. That sort of thing. There is a good example of bitonal music at the end of the Star Wars introduction, where the scrolling text fades away into blackness.

Polytonal music generally relies on the familiar chords of major, minor, dominant 7ths, and so on, whereas atonal music generally relies on chords that emphasize dissonant intervals like 2nds, 4ths, tritones, and 7ths.

That sounds like it's incredibly difficult to make it sound right, and not very unlistenable.

Are there rules to this, meaning that the scales used are related in a certain way? For example, I can't imagine B major sounding to good together with C major.

[Ludwig 1,120]

That sounds like it's incredibly difficult to make it sound right, and not very unlistenable.

Are there rules to this, meaning that the scales used are related in a certain way? For example, I can't imagine B major sounding to good together with C major.

The only consistency I hear in most bitonal music is that the two chords tend to have semitone clashes and be distantly related (the key signatures would have many sharps or flats different between them). Yes, a relationship like B major with C major is a common one. So any two chords that bring this about seem to be the most used.

In the bit from Star Wars I was talking about, the bitonal music starts with a D-flat major chord in the lower parts combined with a C major chord in the upper parts. So each note in one chord clashes by a semitone with a note in the other. Hear it in this clip in 1:16-1:18:

The next "polychord" (combination of chords) is an A major chord in the lower parts combined with the same C major chord in the upper parts. So now, there is only one semitone clash (between C# and C). This is in the last clip from 1:19-1:20.

And the last polychord combines an A-flat augmented chord in the lower parts with, again, the same C major chord in the upper parts. There is now a semitone clash between A-flat and G. This happens in the clip above from 1:21-1:23.

The trick in keeping bitonal chords from sounding awful is to keep the chords in different registers so we can hear each one as a chord and not as a mish-mash of dissonance. Williams does that brilliantly here.