The Anachronistic Cool Factor

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Here's a weird thread!

Does your normal every day member of society brain ever stop while listening to a really fantastic and incredible modern John Williams track and go..."this was written by a man in his 70s/80s?!?!"

It happens to me mostly on the more streamlined and cleaner works John has written. Also some of the more aggressive and action music. "Everybody Runs," "The Hunt," "No Man's Land," "The Tide Turns" all come to mind. I actually just got it during the action music in No Man's Land.

You don't, at least in most of our modern western cultures, associate a gentle old man with menacing bombast and almost rock-'n-roll level [orchestral] music. And yet there it is. It sends chills through my body imagining John in his old age sitting at a piano punching out notes that become "The Hunt" in the Lost World.

Consider what a not-so-small role time plays in our ability to communicate with each other. Just look at the last 20-40 years. People growing up in the 70s and 80s have brains wired for a completely different musical language from those growing up in the 90s and 00s. The younger ones find the musical palette of the past strange and syrupy, the older ones find the new music overly emotional and like loud noise.

And here's a man born closer to Tchaikovsky than to most of us and he can write music that is very much in keeping not only with that era, write music that is 80s, 90s, 2000s, and beyond. That's what makes my jaw drop. His 2000s music sounds completely modern, completely in sync with our modern sound palette, and yet completely out of sync, anachronistic with his own age. I have to believe that it's a conscious choice, that the great man behind the curtain chooses to connect with us with our modern language, to write cool music. To write music like No Man's Land. Music you wouldn't be embarassed to admit listening to to your cool modern friends.

It's magnificent if you think about it. Wizard of Oz level magic. Imagine if an elderly author could write a novel in Shakespearean English, Victorian English, and Modern Colloquial English at will. Now imagine if he could blend all those iterations of the English language into one novel that makes complete and absolute sense.

Because that's basically what John is doing.

Anyways, cue Joey discussing how modern Williams and modern Williams suck.

[Hlao-roo 389]

[Richard Penna 3,669]

I'd simply disagree about his 2000s scores sounding that modern - I hear the same instrumentation and compositional style he was using in the 80s, just with a better recording.

[Quintus 5,399]

I prefer the analogue sound anyway. By a LONG way.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Funnily enough, the very thing crossed my mind when I saw this comment on Youtube for No Man's Land from WAR HORSE.

John Williams is King!!! He has killed this track.Jablonsky, Mancina move out the way!! Cuz the real maestro is nigh!! And he is a whopping 89 years old and still schooling young cats!!

I prefer the analogue sound anyway. By a LONG way.

So do I, but I can't help but have a daft grin across when I hear say 5:55 to the end of Visitor in San Diego or 1:44 in The Turbulent Years from NIXON - both written in the mid-late 90s, but still sounding utterly fresh and contemporary.

[Quintus 5,399]

Well, TLW is after all post-Schindler's and so considered "contemporary Williams", anyway.

To elaborate a little on my analogue preference: it's mainly just something I apply to Williams. His digital recordings suffer ever so slightly from a sort of conservative uniformity for my liking. Instead of raw and hungry like his older recordings, we get formal finesse and supreme degrees of polish. He stopped chewing the scenery once he went digital, sadly.

But elsewhere I am absolutely blown away by the sound of something like Shore's LotR; the clarity and acoustics of which I believe to be unmatched in modern score recordings.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

To elaborate a little on my analogue preference: it's mainly just something I apply to Williams. His digital recordings suffer ever so slightly from a sort of conservative uniformity for my liking. Instead of raw and hungry like his older recordings, we get formal finesse and supreme degrees of polish. He stopped chewing the scenery once he went digital, sadly.

I agree Lee. I think Shawn Murphy is to blame a little on this.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

To elaborate a little on my analogue preference: it's mainly just something I apply to Williams. His digital recordings suffer ever so slightly from a sort of conservative uniformity for my liking. Instead of raw and hungry like his older recordings, we get formal finesse and supreme degrees of polish. He stopped chewing the scenery once he went digital, sadly.

I agree Lee. I think Shawn Murphy is to blame a little on this.

That's largely due to his preference for ambient mics (rather than close-micing) and his use of something called a Decca Tree (overhead mics on a T-shaped frame) for brass - giving the section a fuller but less intense sound. It's a wet as opposed to dry aesthetic. The later of which has sadly gone out of fashion.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

To elaborate a little on my analogue preference: it's mainly just something I apply to Williams. His digital recordings suffer ever so slightly from a sort of conservative uniformity for my liking. Instead of raw and hungry like his older recordings, we get formal finesse and supreme degrees of polish. He stopped chewing the scenery once he went digital, sadly.

I agree Lee. I think Shawn Murphy is to blame a little on this.

That's largely due to his preference for ambient mics (rather than close-micing) and his use of something called a Decca Tree (overhead mics on a T-shaped frame) for brass - giving the section a fuller but less intense sound. It's a wet as opposed to dry aesthetic. The later of which has sadly gone out of fashion.

Not with Michael Giacchino it hasn't *barf*.

[indy4 155]

For me this is 2:39 of "Anderton's Great Escape."

[Jilal 569]

Yes, all the time. Some of the action music in Tintin, for example.

[Marian Schedenig 8,172]

Does your normal every day member of society brain ever stop while listening to a really fantastic and incredible modern John Williams track and go..."this was written by a man in his 70s/80s?!?!"

Yes, exactly that. No Man's Land. Everytime.

That's largely due to his preference for ambient mics (rather than close-micing) and his use of something called a Decca Tree (overhead mics on a T-shaped frame) for brass - giving the section a fuller but less intense sound. It's a wet as opposed to dry aesthetic. The later of which has sadly gone out of fashion.

The problem with a lot of Murphy's recording is that they overdo the bass to an extent where even high quality speakers clip, along with a general muddy sound that clouds a lot of the details.

The latter may be more annoying to me than others, because I have a somewhat analytic approach to listening to music (without being analytic in any academic way - I haven't studied music in any way). But the overblown bass would be a problem even for a purely emotional listener.

I can barely listen to Seven Years in Tibet for this reason.

That said, his best recordings sound great. Several of his Horner, for example (The Rocketeer), and also his newer Williams is fine. War Horse sounds really good.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

I love the how he handled the low end in the two JP scores, along with THE PATRIOT, though the acoustics of the Sony Scoring Stage might be coming into play too.

[Quintus 5,399]

To elaborate a little on my analogue preference: it's mainly just something I apply to Williams. His digital recordings suffer ever so slightly from a sort of conservative uniformity for my liking. Instead of raw and hungry like his older recordings, we get formal finesse and supreme degrees of polish. He stopped chewing the scenery once he went digital, sadly.

I agree Lee. I think Shawn Murphy is to blame a little on this.

Browsing on pc for once in my life here, the full fat JWFan experience is nice to see every now and then. But hey Blume, what's your sig all about? I mean, could you be any more full of yourself and downright narcissistic on this message board? Who do you honestly think is supposed to give a shit whether you love them or not? Give the endless and overestimated promligations a rest for a while, will ya? What will you bring next, a bugle? It's phony nonsense.

[KK 3,307]

It was his response to the backlash he received for his "Scroll Past/Read Posts List II" signature.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Browsing on pc for once in my life here, the full fat JWFan experience is nice to see every now and then. But hey Blume, what's your sig all about? I mean, could you be any more full of yourself and downright narcissistic on this message board? Who do you honestly think is supposed to give a shit whether you love them or not? Give the endless and overestimated promligations a rest for a while, will ya? What will you bring next, a bugle? It's phony nonsense.

[Brónach 1,301]

There's always someone unhappy.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

I can barely listen to Seven Years in Tibet for this reason.

It's a shame too, as there's a lot of lovely texture in this score that I think just gets drowned out by the low frequency masking.

[KK 3,307]

There's always someone unhappy.

Tis the curse of JWFan...

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I don't think Williams particularly nails the sound of each decade. Of course he brings his own style with each score, but I think it depends more on the genre of film. Media Ventures dominated the 90s, he never sounded like them.

Contemporary music is more rhythmic and percussive, he probably gets close to that with "The Moon Rising," but that's about it.

[indy4 155]

I'd argue that since Jurassic Park JW's action music has been becoming more rhythimc and percussive. It's probably less reliant on standard percussion instruments than most contemporary action music, but compare something like "General Greivous" to "The Basket Game." There's a huge difference as far as priorities go (between melody and rhythm).

I don't think Williams particularly nails the sound of each decade. Of course he brings his own style with each score, but I think it depends more on the genre of film. Media Ventures dominated the 90s, he never sounded like them.

Contemporary music is more rhythmic and percussive, he probably gets close to that with "The Moon Rising," but that's about it.

I don't think Williams particularly nails the sound of each decade. Of course he brings his own style with each score, but I think it depends more on the genre of film. Media Ventures dominated the 90s, he never sounded like them.

Contemporary music is more rhythmic and percussive, he probably gets close to that with "The Moon Rising," but that's about it.

I'd argue that since Jurassic Park JW's action music has been
becoming more rhythimc and percussive. It's probably less reliant on
standard percussion instruments than most contemporary action music, but
compare something like "General Greivous" to "The Basket Game."
There's a huge difference as far as priorities go (between melody and
rhythm).

Not sure what happened there, but when I try to edit it even stranger things happen so I'll just leave it be...ignore the text above Koray's quote.

[Quintus 5,399]

It was his response to the backlash he received for his "Scroll Past/Read Posts List II" signature.

Yeah I've since been given a heads up about it via PM. I'm glad I missed it this time since I remember thinking Blume was bang out of order for effectively insulting the unwitting members here which his ginormous ego deemed worthless, and I vaguely remember him placing me high in his pecking order at the time which was as unwanted as it was ironic. "But it's just a bit of fun", apparently. No, it isn't. Not to the perfectly nice folk who had to see themselves paraded in his belittling first tier. In fact I should imagine it could even be considered quite hurtful to some confused newcomer types who are yet to understand the board's nature. Maybe Blume should like to see how he's ranked here - in signature form - by people who funnily enough don't really hang on to his every word as he likes to imagine they do. Nah, that'd just be really fucking boring tbh.

For the record, I have a grand total of six people here whom I read with any semblance of consistency. Joey, KM, Incanus, Wojo, Hornist and Alexcremers (although the latter has had fuck all useful to say lately). Which is not to say I skip other members wholesale, because I certainly do not. Indeed, Faleel can be just as readable as Alan is; even though their input is worlds apart. No, what matters most to me personally is subject matter, not the poster. Everyone gets read if I'm interested in the conversation.

[MSM 126]

I'd simply disagree about his 2000s scores sounding that modern - I hear the same instrumentation and compositional style he was using in the 80s, just with a better recording.

To me, this 'same instrumentation and compositional style' is just perfect...and I can't get enough of it.

The changes that have occurred over time in JWs style (as others have pointed out above, more focus on rhythm and percussion) are for a big deal the result of a changing style in film. A a single shot in which 2 robots walk in a desert for minutes just has to be scored differently than a breakneck speed videogame style space battle with overwhelming sound effects, just to name an example.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[crocodile 7,982]

It was his response to the backlash he received for his "Scroll Past/Read Posts List II" signature.

Yeah I've since been given a heads up about it via PM. I'm glad I missed it this time since I remember thinking Blume was bang out of order for effectively insulting the unwitting members here which his ginormous ego deemed worthless, and I vaguely remember him placing me high in his pecking order at the time which was as unwanted as it was ironic. "But it's just a bit of fun", apparently. No, it isn't. Not to the perfectly nice folk who had to see themselves paraded in his belittling first tier. In fact I should imagine it could even be considered quite hurtful to some confused newcomer types who are yet to understand the board's nature. Maybe Blume should like to see how he's ranked here - in signature form - by people who funnily enough don't really hang on to his every word as he likes to imagine they do. Nah, that'd just be really fucking boring tbh.

For the record, I have a grand total of five people here whom I read with any semblance of consistency. Joey, KM, Incanus, Wojo and Alexcremers (although the latter has had fuck all useful to say lately). Which is not to say I skip other members wholesale, because I certainly do not. Indeed, Faleel can be just as readable as Alan is; even though their input is worlds apart. No, what matters most to me personally is subject matter, not the poster. Everyone gets read if I'm interested in the conversation.

I remember being in the first tier. Can't believe I've made the third now. Seems that my ambition and my intense craving for recognition have finally paid off. It's hard work, this!

Karol

[Quintus 5,399]

Well, apparently people are suckers for flattery Karol, even on little message boards

Lee - who's just realised he now reads BloodBoal's posts more than a lot of long established members stuff. When the fuck did that happen?!

[crocodile 7,982]

I know, that's why I'm here!

(Who is this Williams guy, again?)

Karol

[Quintus 5,399]

And anyway Karol, you were always far more readable to me than the likes of someone like Blume - who you say had the gall to once label you slippable. Cheeky bastard.

Unfortunately you post less in the film thread than you used to, though.

[crocodile 7,982]

That's because I can't be asked to watch more films, Lee.

Karol

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Lee if I am so uninteresting why do you keep stopping to write doctoral theses about me?

I feel honoured that I'm such a worthy topic in your life!

Go on. Explain how you are saving the world from a 600x200 pixel image that no longer exists and a big bad Blumenkohl with your laughable heroics and standing up for the little man!

Everyone else has moved on. Why are you still stirring up drama? Jealous?

There's not much to be jealous of Lee. I'm not half as important as you think I am. And not even a tenth as important as you think I THINK I am.

[Quintus 5,399]

Of course you think that, you're a chronic narcissist. Your love of your own reflection demands that you must twist all criticism into base emotions such as jealously and vanity. Sorry Blume, you're really not of interest to me in the way you suggest. However, I'm absolutely fine with you thinking otherwise if it helps you to deal uncomfortable situations - such as when someone decides not to turn a blind eye to your virtual vanity projects which inevitably demean portions of your ungrateful company here with whom you share the forum with. Got it?

That's because I can't be asked to watch more films, Lee.

Karol

Not asking, just noticing

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Of course you think that, you're a chronic narcissist. Your love of your own reflection demands that you must twist all criticism into base emotions such as jealously and vanity. Sorry Blume, you're really not of interest to me in the way you suggest. However, I'm absolutely fine with you thinking otherwise if it helps you to deal uncomfortable situations - such as when someone decides not to turn a blind eye to your virtual vanity projects which inevitably demean portions of your ungrateful company here with whom you share the forum with. Got it?

So my vanity bothers you? So I am of interest to you!

Otherwise, don't you think the people who feel demeaned by my vanity projects will let me know without needing the great Lee D to stick up for 'em?

Don't you think these other people are mature and capable of sending me a PM and telling me "Blume you're being an asshole, stop!"? (And I would gladly oblige, if someone was truly offended by anything I said or did, which they shouldn't be, but it happens case in point: the signature is gone.)

Hang on a second...who's the narcissist here? Me? Or the guy who feels like he needs to speak up for everyone else?

Anyways, Lee, I've gotten more PMs from people telling me to just ignore your continuous, thread-derailing, and irritating attacks than I have received complaints about my so-called vanity projects. I think they're right. I'm done with your nonsense.

[Quintus 5,399]

Sigh, I read the other thread back you arrogant fool. I saw the rather unhappy reactions of those who weren't exactly grateful of your undermining japes. In desktop view, the context of their negative comments toward you suddenly made sense. Remember Blume: it was YOU who started this, not I. People did take you to task over it, so give up the everyman butter wouldn't melt act.

But anyway, good: now we finally understand each other.

"My PM box is bigger than your PM box!" Oh dear...

You're right, we're done here.

[Wojo 2,453]

I wish the list of people's posts I read was half as long as the list that Blumenkohl admitted to.

[Muad'Dib 1,800]

There's some very interesting modern action music in Amistad, particularly in The Capture of Cinque and Crossing the Atlantic...

It's a sort of mix between Morricone's The Mission and Williams' own Lost World, which results in some fantastic music.

[Marian Schedenig 8,172]

It's a shame too, as there's a lot of lovely texture in this score that I think just gets drowned out by the low frequency masking.

I didn't know that term. I shall henceforth use it to describe the problems in Murphy's worst recordings.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

It's a shame too, as there's a lot of lovely texture in this score that I think just gets drowned out by the low frequency masking.

I didn't know that term. I shall henceforth use it to describe the problems in Murphy's worst recordings.

It mystifies me how Bruce Botnick tackles this. I think he goes through each track, and dynamically amps the low frequencies exactly where it's needed and then goes back to allowing the mids and highs to shine through. And somehow weaves it in and out without it being noticeable. Or he really separates out the low-frequency instruments and processes them. Maybe a recording engineer can tell us how?!

It's really obvious with The Mummy, in the tracks where there is low percussion/brass mixed with sweeping high strings. The percussion hits are packed with oomph, but the rest doesn't suffer from the blanket oomph that covers up the rest of the sound spectrum.

[Jeshopk 8]

I was utterly wowed by The Hunt, and was amazed at the contemporary, yet superior Ludlow's Demise. I was like, "this guy tops 'em all". Similar thoughts to what Blumenkohl expressed. What a great week that was when The Lost World CD hit shelves.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Ah I forgot to include Ludlow's Demise. Definitely one that induces that anachronism chill.

The Lost World really is one of a kind in John's repertoire.

[Quintus 5,399]

I was utterly wowed by The Hunt, and was amazed at the contemporary, yet superior Ludlow's Demise. I was like, "this guy tops 'em all". Similar thoughts to what Blumenkohl expressed. What a great week that was when The Lost World CD hit shelves.

That week is memorable for me too actually but for the wrong reasons. I love the score now, but at the time I remember being REALLY disappointed that much of the original's thematic material had been largely abandoned for this new jungle trek music! I was like: this isn't Jurassic Park!!!

I saw saw the light eventually, which was awesome.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

FWIW, I think Mark Isham's BLACK DAHLIA suffers the worst out of Shawn Murphy's history as a recording engineer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Py8j0H9P9Zo

Terrific score, but clouded by a muddy production. Sounds like it was recorded under a blanket.

[KK 3,307]

I was utterly wowed by The Hunt, and was amazed at the contemporary, yet superior Ludlow's Demise. I was like, "this guy tops 'em all". Similar thoughts to what Blumenkohl expressed. What a great week that was when The Lost World CD hit shelves.

That week is memorable for me too actually but for the wrong reasons. I love the score now, but at the time I remember being REALLY disappointed that much of the original's thematic material had been largely abandoned for this new jungle trek music! I was like: this isn't Jurassic Park!!!

I saw saw the light eventually, which was awesome.

What disappointed me most when I first heard TLK was the new main theme. It was a big fall from the JP theme at the time. Having said that, I think it's great now

[Marian Schedenig 8,172]

That week is memorable for me too actually but for the wrong reasons. I love the score now, but at the time I remember being REALLY disappointed that much of the original's thematic material had been largely abandoned for this new jungle trek music! I was like: this isn't Jurassic Park!!!

I saw saw the light eventually, which was awesome.

LW must have been the first new CD I got right after finishing school. For several weeks, I was convinced that it must be the best score of all time. I still think it's bloody good.