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Star Trek Into Darkness SPOILERS ALLOWED Discussion Thread


Jay

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With the exception of Cho they are close in age to their counterparts when the TOS began.

Cho is older than Takei was. Actually I think Yelchin is a bit younger than Koenig too.

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First thing off, I'm not a Trek fan. That's not to say I dislike the franchise, I just don't know much about it. The only Trek films I've actually seen are JJ Abram's. That and some of my friends have made me watch some of the original TV episodes.

I didn't think the first was that great. It was fun, but nothing much. So my thoughts on the new film?

In one word, it was underwhelming. I don't know about you guys, but I thought we were going to get a lot more. The film is essentially carried by a strong cast who have great chemistry and a script full of inside jokes that I missed. And yet, I came out thinking "that's it?".

Cumberbatch is as usual quite enjoyable to watch, but I felt he was sadly underused. The way things started off, Khan looked out like he was going to be a really great villain. I enjoyed his capture, and him working with Kirk. But after he took over the ship, everything was over all too fast. His defeat came on like nothing. I thought Khan was supposed to be the greatest Star Trek villain or something? With Cumberbatch's talents, there was so much more potential so that that kind of villain could have been crafted. And then the climax was incredibly unsatisfying. The big fight between Spock and Khan just gets cut short for the conclusion. For all of Khan's hype, he didn't seem to hard a threat to eliminate. Also, the whole introduction with Cumberbatch saving the child seemed rather loose-ended, messy and the film could have gone on without it. The kind of terror with the bombings that Abrams was going for could have been fashioned better. Or at least I was expecting more of the terror and chaos akin to Nolan's Bane here based on the trailer. Perhaps that's poor misperception on my part.

I really liked the character development Kirk had, and his chemistry with Spock. His death and resurrection was entirely predictable but I don't think that's the point. The film's entertainment factor ultimately rides on the great cast assembled. All the actors seem to be having fun with each other and that makes for an enjoyable product. But will I want to see this film again? No. There's nothing much to come back for, not even Cumberbatch (disappointingly so). It's simple blockbuster entertainment without the scope that some of the trailers promised.

There is still much left in the summer to look forward to. Let's hope Man of Steel doesn't disappoint.

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Cumberbatch is as usually quite enjoyable to watch, but I felt he was sadly underused. The way things started off, Khan looked out like he was going to be a really great villain. I enjoyed his capture, and him working with Kirk. But after he took over the ship, everything was over all too fast. His defeat came on like nothing. I thought Khan was supposed to be the greatest Star Trek villain or something? With Cumberbatch's talents, there was so much more potential to that kind of villain could have been crafted. And then the climax was incredibly unsatisfying. The big fight between Spock and Khan just gets cut short for the conclusion. For all of Khan's hype, he didn't seem to hard a threat to eliminate. Also, the whole introduction with Cumberbatch saving the child seemed rather loose-ended, messy and the film could have gone on without it. The kind of terror with the bombings that Abrams was going for could have been fashioned better. Or at least I was expecting more of the terror and chaos akin to Nolan's Bane here based on the trailer. Perhaps that's poor misperception on my part.

Cumberbatch is one of the elements of the film I'm not so sure about. He's comes off as bit comical, I'd say. The way his face doesn't move apart from his mouth. I don't think his theatrical presence compliments his "contemporary relevant villain" very well. But that's the problem of the film as a whole. On one hand it tries to be aware of the socio-political stuff, as Star Trek should (take The Undiscovered Country, for example), but then it does so much goofy stuff. Doesn't sit well with me. Iron Man 3 is a much wittier attempt at that, I'd say.

But ever since I started to call the film Star Trek Into Dorkness, all its problem seem to disappear. ;)

Karol

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Age or breakneck action has nothing to do with it gkgyver.

It's called...classical/stage trained actors vs. Hollywood stars and actors.

The former carry themselves in a very specific manner that usually comes across as more mature and eerily ageless (and therefore timeless).

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it helps that in close up you see every one of the pores.

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I'd love to see the next chapter discover that the events of the first film are causing events of the original time line to unravel in this alternative timeline before they should.

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[Edit] Best and most well done scene in the movie IMO is Kirk beating the shit out of Khan (at that point Harrison) and Khan just looking at him in an uncaring...cold and dispassionate "OK are you done?" it was very nicely directed with some cool sound design and music. I got the creepy chills. The movie does not get better than that though.

I also love the immediately following moment of Kirk saying "Cuff him," walking away without looking at anyone. Really nice bit.

On the whole I liked it, and, like the first film, I had a huge goofy grin on my face--the first mention of them possibly being assigned the first five-year mission made me go "OOOOHHHHH, I see what they're doing here," and I was able to go along with. I was prepared to be far more pissed off that they were reusing Khan, but I felt that they were doing something that they did last time around with the use of Spock and Spock Prime, which was to build off of existing elements to re-examine the characters in a way that is formative for them while still showing us a kind of development in the scope of the universe.

The big disappointment for me was where they took Khan ultimately. They spent so much time building the notion that maybe he's onto something even if he's going about it in a shitty way and goddammit, the son of a bitch killed Pike. Stuff like Khan helping Kirk during the ship to ship sequence gave me some hope that they might even use this film to make some kind of miraculous Khan trilogy, of Space Seed, WoK, and this film, ending with an at least somewhat redemptive ending for him. Unfortunately that wasn't the case. At the very least, though, I expected them to actually have Khan see that his crew was okay. Basically, I didn't like that the last thing we see Khan actively doing is fighting Spock. I thought they were going to show him that the crew was okay, have him admire what Kirk did for his ship, and give up some of the blood--or SOMETHING more thoughtful. Alas...

However, there's so much to like in the film, IMO, and it's certainly got a lot of great moments with the characters--the chemistry was very strong here. I liked where Giacchino took the score as well. The Kirk-Spock stuff was done well, and I was surprised to find that I really appreciated what they did by flipping the death scene of Wrath of Khan--very potent, and, as I was saying before, an interesting way to examine the characters by switching roles. It was nice to see that it wasn't just mere fanservice, but there was a point to it.

I really hope they'll take advantage of the exploratory nature of the five-year mission next time and have something that perhaps confronts the crew on a more existential level. As much as I liked Abrams's direction here (and hey, no shaky-cam for the bar scene this time around!), maybe it would work out for him to move onto Star Wars on its own and let someone else take the reins for the next film if he doesn't dig that stuff as much.

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[Edit] Best and most well done scene in the movie IMO is Kirk beating the shit out of Khan (at that point Harrison) and Khan just looking at him in an uncaring...cold and dispassionate "OK are you done?" it was very nicely directed with some cool sound design and music. I got the creepy chills. The movie does not get better than that though.

The big disappointment for me was where they took Khan ultimately. They spent so much time building the notion that maybe he's onto something even if he's going about it in a shitty way and goddammit, the son of a bitch killed Pike. Stuff like Khan helping Kirk during the ship to ship sequence gave me some hope that they might even use this film to make some kind of miraculous Khan trilogy, of Space Seed, WoK, and this film, ending with an at least somewhat redemptive ending for him. Unfortunately that wasn't the case. At the very least, though, I expected them to actually have Khan see that his crew was okay. Basically, I didn't like that the last thing we see Khan actively doing is fighting Spock. I thought they were going to show him that the crew was okay, have him admire what Kirk did for his ship, and give up some of the blood--or SOMETHING more thoughtful. Alas...

This was my big fault with the film as well.

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So... we're getting space whales in the next one, then? Or space whales, a search for "Shangri-La" AND peace with the Klingons?

Or could they maybe, perhaps, come up with their own story this time around...? :sarcasm:

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There's one thing that struck me recently: Why is there such a rush to get Khan's blood at the end if they have 72 of his crew members on board as well?

Karol

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There's one thing that struck me recently: Why is there such a rush to get Khan's blood at the end if they have 72 of his crew members on board as well?

Karol

PLOT HOLE! ;)

seriously though, it would probably have something to do with them not wanting to have to unfreeze one, and have two "Khans" running around.

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The movie was full of plot holes, many of which bugged me. Which was annoying, because nothing bugged me about the 2009 film.

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There's one thing that struck me recently: Why is there such a rush to get Khan's blood at the end if they have 72 of his crew members on board as well?

Karol

PLOT HOLE! ;)

seriously though, it would probably have something to do with them not wanting to have to unfreeze one, and have two "Khans" running around.

Or possibly the time it would take for them to get unfrozen in order to get a viable sample, and also they didn't know of any possible unexpected issues with a given individual's blood. Khan's blood had already been shown to take (albeit, in a different species...) and could be readily obtained.

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There's one thing that struck me recently: Why is there such a rush to get Khan's blood at the end if they have 72 of his crew members on board as well?

Karol

we thought the same thing but the truth is we don't know that the others blood would have the same curative properties.

I loved Cumberbun's perfromance as Khan, however it's kind of pointless that he is Khan. There is no additional drama in this because of this revelation.

Ricardo's Khan was far more noble though.

The movie was full of plot holes, many of which bugged me. Which was annoying, because nothing bugged me about the 2009 film.

there are virtually no plot holes in this film but 2009 was full of them.

Hello Spock seeing Vulcan destroy, impossible.

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So... we're getting space whales in the next one, then? Or space whales, a search for "Shangri-La" AND peace with the Klingons?

Or could they maybe, perhaps, come up with their own story this time around...? :sarcasm:

personally I want the Borg, It makes no sense to have the borg since they were never encountered by Kirk's crew, but we never heard of Section 31 either.

they try to assimilate Kirk but because he's no infected with Khan's blood the borgs nano probes are ineffective. The advance weaponry of the Vengance, nice nod to the original title...Vengance of Khan, is a match for the Borg in this timeline. Or in the sequel they could call it Star Trek 13 The Wrath of Khan as he gets out of cryoprison and finds a way to go after Kirk but in the end Kirk stops him and exiles Khan and his 72 on Ceti Apha 5.

don't worry it won't happen.

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This Khan had a completely different personality than the original timeline Khan, which was pretty annoying.

Also, since the timelines only diverged at the same time of Kirk's birth, theoretically this implies that the original timeline Khan had magic healing blood too.

I don't think these writers through everything through that carefully.

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A minor quibble, but having a British Khan bothered me since the timeline diverged way after Khan was frozen. I'd have preferred them stay accurate to that, as well as his personality, or else keep the John Harrison character simply as John Harrison.

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Yea, Joey is right. In the end, John Harrison being Khan had no dramatic impact on the story whatsoever. It was only there as a nod to the fans. If everything else was the same and he was simply a guy named John Harrison who had a frozen crew for some other reason it still would have been an identical movie.

I want to know what Spock Prime said when Spock asked him how he defeated Khan in the original timeline.

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I saw this and really liked it. But I agree with most of the good and bad parts you are all saying.

I loved the opening, felt very Indiana Jonesy with the running from the tribe.

The movie had a ton of good laughs. Like Kirk asking Uhura about fighting with Spock. "What is that even like?!"

And Urban's performance of McCoy continuously brings the awesome. "Captain Sulu. Remind me to never piss you off." Just so many good one liners from him.

When Kirk and Khan were shot to the other space ship was so awesome. I don't think I'll ever get tired of seeing those space dives.

Anyways that's just my small take from the film, excluding it's political themes and whatnot. I took away from it what I wanted to, I wont change any others opinions, I just want to touch on the stuff that was really good in it.

I just want more of the movies to be honest. Next one needs to just be the crew in space getting into some situation. Nothing from back home. But I guess that would be obvious with the 5 year mission laid out.'

oh edit: Did not really dig the whole asking Old Spock who is Khan. I mean, are they going to do this everytime something happens? Love Nimoy and all, but it felt like a cheap pop.

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This Khan had a completely different personality than the original timeline Khan, which was pretty annoying.

Also, since the timelines only diverged at the same time of Kirk's birth, theoretically this implies that the original timeline Khan had magic healing blood too.

I don't think these writers through everything through that carefully.

I don't think it implies anything, it's just a convenience for this particular film.

these writers are incapable of thinking everything through....Shia enters Smithsonian Aircraft museum in DC, exits doors into Arizona

survivors of Lost are actually dead....when the writers said they wouldn't go there.

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I was surprised how much of the movie took place on Earth. If you think about it, other than that one scene on Kronos, every single scene in the movie took place on earth on on a spaceship.

And yea, the cast of these films is great. Every single actor had a moment to shine in this film. Bones was just great throughout.

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don't have to now, McCoy synthasized it



the Klingons looked like the thing from Enemy Mine

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If Khan has magic healing blood, why put him back on ice at all? Pimp that shit out, Holmes. Nobody ever dies again.

So nobody will die in this future now. I wonder if that means Bashir's blood is magic too.

Exactly! I hate this plot device. Same thing happened on the TV show Heroes - eventually they revealed that Claire's blood could bring anyone back to life if they injected it into them. So theoretically you'd think no one would ever die again, but they just dropped it and never mentioned it again. Same thing will happen in the ST films now, I reckon!

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They will argue that living forever is unnatural and not part of humanity's optimistic future due to resource management and population control. This defense will fail with an unlimited number of planets to colonize, Federation expansion, and McCoy in TNG. Certainly Riker wasn't sincere with his plan to live forever?

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perhaps this Khan was not Khan Noonian Sing, but Khan MacLeod cousin to the Scottish Highlander Duncan MacLeod

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Wait! Wait! WAIT!

How do we know it was just Khans blood? For all we know Khans blood mixed with tribble blood is what has the healing property.

For all we know Khan had a lab filled with troubles he mixed his blood with before giving it to the officer to save his daughter.

It's not a plot hole!

Khan doesn't have magical healing blood. Something happens when you mix tribble blood with Khan blood.

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I want to know what Spock Prime said when Spock asked him how he defeated Khan in the original timeline.

"Yeah, some torpedo on his ship blew up."

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I finally saw it last night. I liked it, but was disappointed at the same time. I'll have more to say later, but there was no point in having Khan.

What they should have done was have Harrison as one of Khan's lieutenants who is trying to save his people. We really don't know that Khan is in one of the tubes until the very end of the movie when the camera pans over the tubes and it shows a computer readout on the display of his name. That way you can keep the option later of using him in a more meaningful way.

Sent from Tapatalk

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I finally saw it last night. I liked it, but was disappointed at the same time. I'll have more to say later, but there was no point in having Khan.

What they should have done was have Harrison as one of Khan's lieutenants who is trying to save his people. We really don't know that Khan is in one of the tubes until the very end of the movie when the camera pans over the tubes and it shows a computer readout on the display of his name. That way you can keep the option later of using him in a more meaningful way.

Yea, I like that better!

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I was able to see it (think). I gotta say that I LIKED IT! I was wondering if Harrison was Khan or not and I loved how J.J. switched the roles of Kirk dying in Engineering in stead of Spock. I wonder if anyone got a big chuckle when Spock yelled "Khaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan!".

I do love that J.J. impilmented Section 31 into his universe despite it being briefly mentioned. I always wondered if he would have the balls to do that.hings

A few things I didn't like...

1: The look of the Klingon's.

-WTF are those things? They look like a breed between our Klingon's we know and male Orion's.

2: The Vengeance

-Still unsure about the design for that ship. It looks like a cross between the early design of Andrew Probert's Enterprise-C and the Enterprise-E, even with some slight Klingon designs modified into it. At least her bridge looks better in design compared to the Enterprise.

Anyways, I really dug the film and wouldn't be surprised if Khan returns for the sequel. I bet the only way Abram's could have effectively pulled this off is if he got the go from Nimoy and obviously had to change a few things to not be a complete mirror image of a few details from The Wrath Of

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Now I'm admittedly not a Trekkie, but to me the Klingons seemed to be about the same as I remember them from the old movies and what Warf looked liked. What made these Klingons so different from their usual depiction?

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Trust me these Klingon's don't really look like the ones we know. Maybe except for General Chang. Even then...look at the screen cap of the unmasked Klingon's...then google pictures for Worf (DS9), Gowrown, and General Chang and compare them.

Edit: Faleel and I must have posted at the same time

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I see one bald Klingon, and one with hair. I don't get what the problem is? Sure every Klingon looks different from each other, just like all humans look different from each other?

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Sure every Klingon looks different from each other.

From what I could tell, they all look the same in STID!

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Criticizing the Klingons for changing appearance over time is a weak argument. They always changed! Take the smooth headed ones in TOS. Then they got bumpy heads in The Motion Picture, but their appearance evolved through the remaining movies. Chang and Azetbur look like mixed species Klingons, and then the species was basically standardized in the 80s and 90s through Enterprise. DS9 proved there was a distinction with respect to TOS, which was elaborated upon in Enterprise as being a genetically engineered virus that created the foreheads. TOS shows the smooth heads through the entire run, but by the time of DS9, Kang, Kor, and Koloth have normal bumpy heads, for whatever reason. I don't presume to be an expert on Klingon races and subtypes so I don't mind the different look.

I can't very well defend the blippy phasers but critique the Klingons, can I?

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They still look like Klingons. And they still talk the same.

It's not as big as difference as it was in 1979. And it was a change for the movie. They had more money so they were able to make the Klingons more intimidating.

I seriously doubt when they wrote TMP the writers cared about it. As far as they were concerned that's how Klingons always looked.

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It didn't bother me they looked somewhat different. Loved their helmets. Their little ship was ugly as hell.

I want Star Trek back on TV. I don't want this alternative version back on TV. I want the next Star Trek tv to take place after the events of Voyager and Deep Space Nine. I want a new adversary. One that isn't all powerful like the Borg but superior in numbers. I still want the Cardassians, Romulans, and Klingons present and I want to see more of the Breen. Lots more.

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Yea I forgot to mention that about the Klingon's ships. It looked like a cross between the traditional bird of prey and something out of Transformers. The only special effect in the movie that didn't work for me.

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I've said it before and I will say it again, the production design in these movies is abysmal.

Star Trek and Star Wars are THE two science fiction series with iconic production designs. From space ships to sets.

It's a shame that they will one by one be ruined by the Bad Robot blandizer squad.

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They were just meant to be small patrol or scout ships. Not the regular Bird of Prey ships or whatever class they were.

If I'm wrong someone can correct me.

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There were a lot of effects and stuff in the production design of this film that I did not like. As Blume said, a lot of permeates blandness.

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