Star Trek Into Darkness SPOILERS ALLOWED Discussion Thread

[crocodile 8,012]

Yeah, but my point is STID, no matter how daft, is an enjoyable romp. Which is what Star Wars, not Star Trek, is all about.

Karol

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Exactly! All other complaints aside, you would have to be really going out of your way not to enjoy the movie. Or you were suffering from serious hemorrhoids.

[Wojo 2,453]

You still should check out certain episodes.

Star Trek: The Corbomite Maneuver, The Menagerie, Balance of Terror, Space Seed, Errand of Mercy, City on the Edge of Forever(one of TV's greatest single episodes of all time), Mirror Mirror, The Doomsday Machine, Immunity Syndrome, The Enterprise Incident, Paradise Syndrome, Day of the Dove, Tholian Web, Elaan of Troyius, Requiem for Methuselah.

Star Trek the Next Generation: so many...Measure of a Man, Yesterday's Enterprise, Best of Both Worlds 1&2, Inner Light, All Good Things. and so many more

Star Trek Deep Space Nine: again so many great ones. Melora, The Maquis, The Jem Hadar, The Abandoned, Defiant, Way of the Warrior, Little Green Men, Empok Nor, Valient, Dogs of War, What you Leave Behind.

Lots of good stuff in Voyager and Enterprise too. Enterprise ends with what is really a Next Generation Episode.

Joey, I noticed you mentioned your desire to have Trek back on TV in the original universe. I agree. That's where it belongs.

I read somewhere the other day that CBS owns the rights to the TV shows and any future shows as well as all merchandising of those properties . Only Paramount owns the movie rights of these new movies. Which is why there wasn't more merchandise for 2009, because CBS was still producing products of the original cast. Paramount wanted them to stop it so they don't "confuse" people, but paramount wouldn't meet CBS' demands. Which I say, good for them.

So basically CBS can create a new show anytime they want. Considering all the money they are spending to update the old shows, I'm surprised that one isn't being put on the air anytime soon.

Sent from Tapatalk

I read the same article but it would only enrage the Abrams fanboys if it were posted here. Basically Abrams took Star Trek because he wanted to supplant the current Star Trek merchandising empire with his own. But CBS would not simply lay over and disregard the classic series. So Abrams is jumping over to Star Wars where Disney owns a far larger portion of that empire. Good riddance, I say.

[Brónach 1,302]

Yeah, but my point is STID, no matter how daft, is an enjoyable romp. Which is what Star Wars, not Star Trek, is all about.

Karol

I'll settle for no less than a trascendental experience that cures cancer.

[crocodile 8,012]

Karol

[Ollie 1,059]

One thing this film does is give Kirk the proper heroic death he deserved instead of the lame way he went out in Generations.

[King Mark 3,631]

About the score. I did not listen to the OST before

But the one cue that immediately stands out is when Kirk fixes the warp core. That one is stunning.

It's weird that sometimes Giacchino hits it out of the park, but a lot of it is mediocre

[Delorean90 42]

One thing this film does is give Kirk the proper heroic death he deserved instead of the lame way he went out in Generations.

Definitely. Hell, one of the big problems with that film is that his fake death on the Enterprise B was a far better one than his real death.

[KK 3,307]

About the score. I did not listen to the OST before

But the one cue that immediately stands out is when Kirk fixes the warp core. That one is stunning.

It's weird that sometimes Giacchino hits it out of the park, but a lot of it is mediocre

Warp Core Values is a beautiful cue and the major highlight of this score. Doesn't quite make up for the score's faults though.

[King Mark 3,631]

Things I did not like about the film::

Convoluted plot which seemed confusing on purpose to hide plotholes.At the end of the film I did not remember what the film was about in the first hour.In that sense I'm reminded of Prometheus, except I don't want to bother re- thinking about the movie

Khan

Too much "one liners" and jokes in moments that should have been serious and dramatic. That is the MAIN flaw. I think there is a time in the movie to make witty banter, but at thies where it is not appropriate. And it was there ALL the time in this film

Things that worked :

Great action sequences, VFX and set pieces ( the Enterprise crash)

The actors are still good despite corny lines

The Spock Prime appearance

[Delorean90 42]

I didn't have a problem with the placement of humor (Iron Man Three was more guilty of that, IMO, if only in the climax). For me THE issue is that they develop a potentially interesting twist on Khan, and then simply drop it all in the third act to say, "Nope, he's just an asshole bad guy that's really good at manipulating people. Just knock him out so you can get his blood and we're good to go. Don't worry about that whole thing of his concern for his crew or anything--and please, PLEASE, don't get too excited at the notion of Khan and Kirk working together to stop a warmongering Federation from throwing itself into unnecessary war. Nope."

[Pieter Boelen 740]

There could always be a cloned emperor or Vader. Established in the EU comics and books.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

saw the movie yesterday.

First of all, i paid 10 € for that (3d) and it was the 'cheap' day. So i think germany is one of the places where cinema is more expensive... (and im in east germany!). In spain i would have paid like 7-8 € for a 3d film in the same circumstances.

Ok I enjoyed the film, but i think i liked the plot better in the first film. I had not read practically anything about the movie so it was a little shock when they reveal Harrison is Khan. Now I have to see the original films, my curiosity is piqued

I liked the actors, and the humor. SFX were great, I noticed how much better London-SFrancisco look compared to Coruscant. SFX really improve alot over time.

The Score was very nice, a very good sequel score. I noticed almost one of the 1st notes of music after the logos is a Williamesque flute flourish

Also i noticed only three cues with Choir this time (one being the finale-end credits) So I hope this time Varese does not go the cheap way and pays the rights for all of them in the deluxe edition....

[Jay 37,359]

I think I found footage of a deleted scene in the old trailers... check out 1:29 here:

And 0:21 here

Talking about the guy jumping off the building.... that wasn't in the film right?

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I think that's Spock jumping from one air car to the other. Blue shirt?

[Jay 37,359]

Ah you're right, that's what that is. Thanks.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Oh the real only thing i didnt like in the film was the vast ammount of one liners-dialogue speaking about events in the last movie. I mean it is not needed, and it looks as if it was a 20-years-after sequel or something.

[crocodile 8,012]

Half in the Bag review.

Spot on, if you ask me (I know you don't). Their analysis of the plot is priceless.

Karol

[Jay 37,359]

Yea, they bring up all the plot holes and bad writing I noticed

It's only an enjoyable film is you are capable of ignoring that kind of stuff

[crocodile 8,012]

Yeah, they're not as kind to the film as I was.

Karol

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Yea, they bring up all the plot holes and bad writing I noticed

It's only an enjoyable film is you are capable of ignoring that kind of stuff

Star Trek into Darkness has few plot holes compared to 2009.

[Jay 37,359]

B roll ( no idea if there are spoilers or not)

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Well this is the spoilers allowed thread, so...

[King Mark 3,631]

Spock 's death from ST2 Wrath of Khan is an iconic movie moment

Re-creating the entire thing in reverse in a less memorable way just didn't work

[Trent B 337]

Spock 's death from ST2 Wrath of Khan is an iconic movie moment

Re-creating the entire thing in reverse in a less memorable way just didn't work

It some what worked but ya no way on the same epic level as the original.

[gkgyver 1,645]

One thing this film does is give Kirk the proper heroic death he deserved instead of the lame way he went out in Generations.

You did stay until the end and noticed that Kirk did not stay "dead", right?

Spock 's death from ST2 Wrath of Khan is an iconic movie moment

Re-creating the entire thing in reverse in a less memorable way just didn't work

On the contrary, I found it worked brilliantly. It's just the silly stuff that followed that tarnished its effectiveness.

[Ollie 1,059]

One thing this film does is give Kirk the proper heroic death he deserved instead of the lame way he went out in Generations.

You did stay until the end and noticed that Kirk did not stay "dead", right?

Spock 's death from ST2 Wrath of Khan is an iconic movie moment

Re-creating the entire thing in reverse in a less memorable way just didn't work

On the contrary, I found it worked brilliantly. It's just the silly stuff that followed that tarnished its effectiveness.

No shit sherlock, but that's the way he should have went in Generations. Not falling off a damn bridge.

[Trent B 337]

No shit sherlock, but that's the way he should have went in Generations. Not falling off a damn bridge.

100% agreed! His death in Generations was bullshit.

[ZackR 95]

Generations was a mess but at my age then, growing up watching TNG and seeing the Enterprise-D on the big screen...I loved the experience. Kirk dying like he did was incredibly lame (in Generations).

[Wojo 2,453]

All right, at my gf's insistence, I'm 40 minutes shy of seeing this on the big screen. The things I do for love.

[gkgyver 1,645]

No shit sherlock, but that's the way he should have went in Generations. Not falling off a damn bridge.

100% agreed! His death in Generations was bullshit.

I don't think it's that bad.

Are you sure it's how he dies that bothers you, and not the simple fact that he does?

[Ollie 1,059]

Nope.

If you're going to kill a major character, let them go out in heroic fashion with some gusto.

I want to know what Spock Prime said when Spock asked him how he defeated Khan in the original timeline.

"Technically we didn't kill him. We disabled his ship and he decided to blow himself up."

Of course Khan dies from his wounds but the Enterprise had no way of knowing.

[gkgyver 1,645]

"Spock Prime" sounds just wrong. How about "Optimus Spock" or "Bumblespock"?

[Ollie 1,059]

Old Spock.

Or just call him Ambassador Spock.

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

Old Spork.

[Uni 306]

Saw it again today (had to take my ST-fan kids). Paid $14 dollars for 3D on Friday night, $11 for the matinee today. Worth every penny both times . . . and yet there's no denying it's a ripoff.

The verdict's no different. This is just a great summer movie. I understand the points everyone brings up, and agree with a great many of them. The plot holes are becoming more and more clear as I look back on both viewings; but ultimately none of that really mattered while I was watching the film, and that's why it made such a great impression.

I do want to mention, and elaborate on, something a few people brought up earlier: the fact that Harrison's revelation of his true identity didn't modify the dramatic premise of the story enough to justify doing it. They claim the fact that he's Khan doesn't really change anything. I see what they're getting at. Frankly, they're right. And yet . . . it misses an important point. Vitally important, in fact, because I think it's one of the reasons the film works so well for most (but certainly not all) of us.

To elaborate, let me turn your attention to a good illustration of this in another moment in the film, a sort of microcosm of the larger effect I'm talking about. After Scotty leaves the ship, Kirk goes to the bridge and promotes Chekov to the position of Chief Engineer. He tells him to "go put on a red shirt." The camera closes on Chekov's face as he spends a moment considering the ominous implications of his wardrobe change. But waitaminute--what ominous implications? All the engineers wear red shirts, right? Have they had sufficient time in this alternate reality to establish this particular reputation? Would Chekov honestly be haunted by the redshirt curse at a moment like that?

Probably not. Taken completely in context, it's literally a meaningless bit of expression. There's no reasonable reason for him to act that way. It makes no sense. Except . . . it does make sense. Perfect sense--to those who've followed the franchise for years. Ultimately, this is a payoff moment that exists only for Star Trek fans. A wink and a nudge that belongs solely to those who've been faithful to the legend through many iterations over several decades. My son and I had a good laugh over it.

There's a lot of that in this movie. Is that a problem? If you're someone who hasn't watched much Trek before now, maybe so. Some of it isn't going to connect the way it was designed to. You may feel a little left out. But I would argue that people who've invested themselves in five television series and twelve movies spanning nearly half a century deserve a little payoff. They've done their time and paid their dues; why shouldn't they be given an experience that'll mean more to them than it will to those who haven't gone the distance?

Does Khan's presence in this film lend it any significant dramatic weight that wouldn't otherwise be there? I can't say that it does. What does it accomplish, then? Just this: it gives us an opportunity to witness moments that only great sci-fi elements (like temporal distortions and alternate realities) can offer. I found the scene of Kirk's death a thrillingly brilliant reversal. I love that they switched places, I love that they used many of the same lines, and I love that Spock got to be the one who yelled "KHAAAAAAN!" If Harrison hadn't been revealed as Khan, I wouldn't have gotten to see that. It wouldn't have meant as much if Spock were pissed at some other guy we'd never seen before.

So Abrams is essentially guilty of exchanging authentic dramatic gravity for the deeper sort of meaning that can only come with a long-standing loyalty to the Star Trek mythos. Was he wrong for doing so? You'll never get me to admit to it. There's an exhilaration in seeing a director dare to do something just because he can.

Some people will say that this, too, is something that detracts from the movie. Whatever. I got to see something I would never imagined I'd get a chance to see. And I'm grateful for it.

That's why Khan's presence is so important here. It's purely to create moments like this that wouldn't have existed otherwise. I'll take it.

Now, having said that . . . I will admit the alternative endings people are volleying around here (without much effort) are intriguing, and probably would've been much better. They certainly wouldn't have taken away from the effect I just described. If you're really gonna reboot something, to the point where you can switch the places of characters in massively important scenes, then there's no reason you can't take a bad egg from the original timeline and redeem him. There is, after all, something to be said for authentic dramatic gravity. . . .

I also got more out of the revelation because I didn't know it was coming. I had my suspicions, of course, but I avoided reading much of the premarketing material because I didn't want to know too much going in. I'm very deliberate about keeping secrets secret, because movies (and novels, and T.V. shows) are better when you don't know what's coming. I love the big surprise as much as I love anything else in fiction.

And on that note, I'd like to extend a special message to a fellow JW forum member concerning something they posted here:

survivors of Lost are actually dead....when the writers said they wouldn't go there.

Really? Was this absolutely necessary? Did it not occur to you that some people may not yet have seen the entire show--people who, say, are watching the series on DVD right now, and who might only be a couple of seasons into it? People who have made every effort to avoid reading reactions and reviews for years in order to see it objectively for the first time? People for whom you have now completely ruined that experience?

Not that I'm referring to anyone specific, of course. Certainly no one who hangs around on this board, or who has a three-letter screen name, or a cogitating hobbit for an avatar. But if there were anyone like that here, I'm sure they'd want to thank you for this.

- Uni

[Koray Savas 2,251]

It's okay Uni he's wrong about it.

[Brónach 1,302]

Yes. It's not true.

[Uni 306]

Okay . . . so now I'm in the same position we found ourselves in with the STID premarketing buzz: Is it true? Or are they lying to me to try to preserve the "secret?" Or . . . or am I really dead, and this is just a test of some kind. . . ?

- Uni

[Brónach 1,302]

You're going to have to discover it yourself!

[Delorean90 42]

Either way, I appreciate it. I hadn't said anything, but that really irked me, as I haven't gotten to watch it yet. I had heard speculation along those lines, but no one outright stating it. I know it's been a little bit, but you can't watch everything at once, and we're not in a discussion thread for that show.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

It was early speculation by fans during the first couple of seasons. The show heavily revolves around life and death, faith and science, philosophy and fantasy.

[Brónach 1,302]

Don't worry Uni, incoherent narratives are hard to spoil.

[Uni 306]

Either way, I appreciate it. I hadn't said anything, but that really irked me, as I haven't gotten to watch it yet. I had heard speculation along those lines, but no one outright stating it. I know it's been a little bit, but you can't watch everything at once, and we're not in a discussion thread for that show.

You're being kind with the "little bit" thing, but that doesn't wash with me. It's been even longer for The Sixth Sense. And a lot longer than that for Citizen Kane. And in a millions years I wouldn't dream of giving anything away from either of those two films (even if Charles Schultz did take his own personal shot at spoilers in his Peanuts cartoons regarding the latter example). Hell, I won't give away the ending to an Edgar Allen Poe story or a work of Shakespeare. I respect people too much for that.

There is no statute of limitations on spoilers. Regardless of how long a story's been in the public domain, there are still people out there who haven't seen/read/heard it yet. They deserve to experience it the right way the first time.

Don't worry Uni, incoherent narratives are hard to spoil.

There is that, of course. . . .

- Uni

[Koray Savas 2,251]

The thing is that great stories still work even if you know the twist. LOST's story has plenty twists and turns, but none that I would say would ruin the experience. If anything, my full second viewing of the series was enriched by knowing what happens next.

[Uni 306]

Yes, but you still got to see it the first time the way it was meant to be seen, without knowing what was about to happen. The same was true for me with 24; I got plenty out of my subsequent viewings even though I knew what was coming next. But that's what made the second time through different than the first, isn't it?

And for the record, this doesn't just apply to "twist" endings, either. I had the ending for Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince ruined for me in the same way. That one wasn't a twist, just humongous in its weight. You wanna talk about being pissed. . . .

- Uni

[Delorean90 42]

Either way, I appreciate it. I hadn't said anything, but that really irked me, as I haven't gotten to watch it yet. I had heard speculation along those lines, but no one outright stating it. I know it's been a little bit, but you can't watch everything at once, and we're not in a discussion thread for that show.

You're being kind with the "little bit" thing, but that doesn't wash with me. It's been even longer for The Sixth Sense. And a lot longer than that for Citizen Kane. And in a millions years I wouldn't dream of giving anything away from either of those two films (even if Charles Schultz did take his own personal shot at spoilers in his Peanuts cartoons regarding the latter example). Hell, I won't give away the ending to an Edgar Allen Poe story or a work of Shakespeare. I respect people too much for that.

There is no statute of limitations on spoilers. Regardless of how long a story's been in the public domain, there are still people out there who haven't seen/read/heard it yet. They deserve to experience it the right way the first time.

I agree with you. I guess I was a little gun-shy based on previous times that this topic has come up.

[Red 75]

I gotta say that I enjoyed this movie despite how stupid the writing was with all the fan service in the last act (and that the character arc with Kirk is largely a retread from the predecessor). What saved it for me was the immensely talented cast, where pretty much every person is great in their roles, and the visuals, score, and action set-pieces. It's certainly inferior to the first but I think the series still has potential for a successful third film if it gets made.

[John Takis 206]

Half in the Bag review.

Spot on, if you ask me (I know you don't). Their analysis of the plot is priceless.

Karol

Yea, they bring up all the plot holes and bad writing I noticed

It's only an enjoyable film is you are capable of ignoring that kind of stuff

I ordinarily love the "Half in the Bag" guys, but in this case they got some major plot points WRONG, and it completely skewed their commentary. I suppose you can put some blame on the film for not being as clear or easy to follow as it might have been -- but it doesn't change the fact that a lot of their plot analysis was predicated on some pretty fundamental misunderstandings.

The biggest misconception I see about the plot is that the whole thing is somehow Khan's master plan. The "Half in the Bag" folks even go so far as to state that Admiral Marcus doesn't know about the people in the torpedoes, as if it was Khan's design that they be brought to him on Kronos. They aren't the only ones to make this error, so again, we can perhaps lay some of the confusion at the feet of the film. Everything happens very rapidly, and plot details are frequently doled out through twisty dialogue. It's easy to miss a beat or two if you aren't paying close attention.

I'll explain what I mean. Khan DOES have plans in the film. But those plans go wrong, and he is forced to improvise. This is a strong point of commonality between Khan and Kirk, by the way, and I don't think it's accidental. Both characters excel at rolling up their sleeves and improvising when things go south, manipulating dire situations to their advantage

Khan's first plan is to smuggle out his followers in the weapons he's being forced to build. Presumably, the torpedoes are meant to be a "Trojan Horse" to get them aboard the Vengeance, whereupon Khan will have full control of the most advanced starship in the known galaxy. They key point is that this plan FAILS, sometime prior to the start of the film. Marcus finds out about the torpedoes (we can expect Section 31 to have at least SOME victories, being the most elite intelligence unit in the Federation) and Khan is forced to go on the run.

Khan has good reason to believe his crew is dead at this point. At the very least, they are beyond his reach. And he knows Marcus is ruthless. Thus begins his campaign of revenge -- against Section 31 broadly, and against Marcus and his command staff in particular. The nasty trickery with the London attack and the subsequent assault on Starfleet HQ are what comes of that. It's a brilliant plot, and it ALMOST works. But Kirk interferes and spoils it. Once again, Khan is obliged to flee, to fight again another day.

And that, to me, is what his escape to Kronos is -- flight, plain and simple. It's not "Phase III" of some bigger plan that involves the Enterprise and the torpedoes. Being of above-average intelligence, Khan probably anticipates SOME sort of pursuit. He knows that Marcus wants war with the Klingons, and won't hesitate to bring the hammer down. He may well hope to enlist the Klingons in his own defense, figuring that they represent his best chance of survival. But I'm pretty sure that what he does NOT expect is for Kirk to show up with the 72 "special" torpedoes aimed at him.

Some reviewers don't seem to get this -- that the business with the Enterprise going after Khan with the torpedoes in tow is MARCUS'S evil scheme, not Khan's. It's an elegant way for Marcus to tie up all his loose ends. Khan is very quick to figure out what's happening, and this probably confuses some people into assuming that he knew all about it beforehand. But that's simply not the case. What happens is that his "superior intellect" puts it all together -- but only AFTER Kirk goes rogue and decides to warn him about the torpedoes. If Kirk had just fired the torpedoes as ordered, Khan would have probably been out of luck.

But Kirk DOES warn Khan, and Khan has the information to put two and two together. Now his best chance of survival lies with Kirk. He doesn't even have to deceive Kirk at this point. Even if Kirk knows he's being manipulated (and he does), the mutual threat of Marcus will ensure that Kirk has no choice but to work with him. All Khan has to do is wait for a moment when Kirk's guard is down and he can seize the upper hand. Which he does.

That's my takeaway, anyhow. There may indeed be plot holes in the film, but it's not nearly as nonsensical as the Red Letter Media crowd would have you believe.

[Jay 37,359]

Yes, I agree with you fully and agree that Khan didn't know his people were alive until he found out about the 72 torpedos