Howard Shore's The Desolation Of Smaug (Hobbit Part 2)

[Alex Shore 83]

Conrad Pope post something very interesting in his facebook...

Every day is filled with orchestrating, reviews, conforms, meetings or conducting. Full days and I know that this quiet weekend is only the calm before the storm of next week.That said, the cello section of the NZSO is spectacular I think. Indeed the entire orchestra is superb. They're a "young" orchestra, but their reading, the playing, the ensemble and color have been fabulous. Also, their patience with listening to instructions and their attention in executing the most intricate "fixes" and performance notes is something that makes the most difficult circumstances endurable. I think if there were a benefactor in NZ who could procure a few more "top drawer" instruments for the strings, the sound of the strings would match many of the finest ensembles globally--- what a difference a Strad could make! Plus, I'd like to hear playing some music better suited to showing their many talents off! ( I'd love to hear them in some of Bruce's music or JW's)

Mmmm...conducting? Maybe the rehearsal before the recording???

[BloodBoal 7,538]

I think he meant "composing"

[Incanus 5,713]

Conrad Pope conducting the DoS music? Uh-oh. Let the panicked internet speculation fly!

NZSO should get patronage on better string instruments eh?

[Faleel 5,342]

Is it just me, or does Pope not seem to like Shore's music very much?

[Barnald 365]

Is it just me, or does Pope not seem to like Shore's music very much?

Not sure about that, but reading between the lines, it doesn't really sound like the NZSO is entirely suited to the demands of this particular score. Which is of course concerning.

At least the cello bits will be good...

[Faleel 5,342]

Well, I am saying that because of this part (emphasis mine of course):

I'd like to hear playing some music better suited to.....their.....talents....! ( I'd love to hear them in some of Bruce's music or JW's)

[Barnald 365]

Well yeah, but I read that more as the NZSO isn't best suited to Shore's music, for whatever reason

[gkgyver 1,645]

I think if there were a benefactor in NZ who could procure a few more "top drawer" instruments for the strings, the sound of the strings would match many of the finest ensembles globally--- what a difference a Strad could make! Plus, I'd like to hear playing some music better suited to showing their many talents off! ( I'd love to hear them in some of Bruce's music or JW's)

Is it just me or is this borderline insulting?

[Barnald 365]

It's insulting to both Shore and the orchestra really. It's not exactly going to inspire confidence is it?

[Faleel 5,342]

What is he sayin', does he offer us insult!?

[KK 3,307]

Hmmm...Pope's comments aren't exactly inspiring confidence in how things are going to work out. Not to mention it sounds like the NZO aren't as well-equipped for the task at hand as I thought (although I'm sure they'll handle it well enough).

As it has often been with this damned new trilogy, most curious indeed...

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Don't worry, guys. PJ can still track some music from LOTR if he isn't satisfied with the score. And we all love the music from LOTR, so why panic?

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

I think if there were a benefactor in NZ who could procure a few more "top drawer" instruments for the strings, the sound of the strings would match many of the finest ensembles globally--- what a difference a Strad could make! Plus, I'd like to hear playing some music better suited to showing their many talents off! ( I'd love to hear them in some of Bruce's music or JW's)

Is it just me or is this borderline insulting?

Well, we all know that Shore's music isn't virtuosic like Williams or Broughton's can be. It's quite simplistic writing with a lot of repetition, a few aleatory moments (the only time the orchestra really gets to let loose) and most of the climaxes resulting in some sort of pyramidal diatonic cluster. A bit predictable really.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Oh stop with the music shop talk!

It's not about whether Pope is right or not, but that he makes a statement like this about a project he is working on and a composer he is working with. Maybe it was badly chosen words, but it's just bad form.

Especially considering what praise he had for Desplat when he worked on Deathly Hallows part 1, which is in no way superior to An Unexpected Journey.

[Luke Skywalker 1,793]

but they had the LSO...

maybe he is saying that his xylophone, flutes and cymbal - drum* players are great and shore does not use them much.

*Williams trademarks (xylophone frenzy, flure flourishes and boom-tzzz!)

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[TownerFan 4,983]

Conrad is too much of a gentleman to let fly harsh judgements about a colleague like Howard Shore. He's strictly talking about performance and style of music, not quality of the music itself.

Don't read too much between lines!

[KK 3,307]

but they had the LSO...

maybe he is saying that his xylophone, flutes and cymbal - drum* players are great and shore does not use them much.

*Williams trademarks (xylophone frenzy, flure flourishes and boom-tzzz!)

That makes sense.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Conrad is too much of a gentleman to let fly harsh judgements about a colleague like Howard Shore. He's strictly talking about performance and style of music, not quality of the music itself.

Don't read too much between lines!

What is there to read between the lines? He's not talking about performance.

I'd like to hear playing some music better suited to showing their many talents off! ( I'd love to hear them in some of Bruce's music or JW's)

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[chuck 154]

Seems like an animosity is brewing...

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Conrad is too much of a gentleman to let fly harsh judgements about a colleague like Howard Shore. He's strictly talking about performance and style of music, not quality of the music itself.

Don't read too much between lines!

What is there to read between the lines? He's not talking about performance.

I'd like to hear playing some music better suited to showing their many talents off! ( I'd love to hear them in some of Bruce's music or JW's)

He said better suited, NOT better music.

[chuck 154]

In short, they're not suited to HS' music

[Score 770]

In short, they're not suited to HS' music

I think that "a certain music is / is not suited to certain musicians" is conceptually very different from "certain musicians are / are not suited to a certain music". Pope is using the first form. And as Prometheus says, he is not speaking about quality of the music, at least not explicitly.

[KK 3,307]

Perhaps the aleatoric stuff doesn't quite suit the NZSO?

[tannhauser 101]

I think it's definitely a diss on the music. Bit snobbish. Howard Shore is a great orchestrator, just in a different vein to Williams, who orchestrates very brilliantly and richly in the manner of the great late romantics. Shore's is often more subtle but always dramatically powerful and direct, stripped of elaborate ornamentation. Much like Wagner often is. Wagner's orchestration isn't fancy, it does what it has to do to express the drama.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Faleel 5,342]

The fanfare of horns in Give Up The Halffling (Album/CR version) is aleatoric as well.

[crocodile 7,990]

I really doubt someone as courteous and gentleman as Pope would publically diss someone else's work, especially if that person is his employer and his paycheck depends on it.

The way I read this quote is that he thinks the orchestra doesn't normally get a chance to play a repertoire that would showcase just how good they are and that maybe exposing them to popular composers (the ones mentioned) would bring them to spotlight. I see absolutely no connection between what he said and supposed lack of quality in Shore's music.

I mean, come on.

Karol

[tannhauser 101]

I can't see this on his FB page. Any follow up comments?

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Faleel 5,342]

Maybe he was fired?

[KK 3,307]

Perhaps the aleatoric stuff doesn't quite suit the NZSO?

I'm not a massive fan of that kind of stuff (that's like the music for the watcher, similar styles are used in the action parts of the troll scene?).

Yup, and its featured in several other places in LotR and The Hobbit (ex. the music for Gandalf the White's first reveal). I love those moments!

I can't see this on his FB page. Any follow up comments?

Second that.

Also, he mentions that the NZSO is a young orchestra - they played the Moria music over ten years ago! I get maybe he means it isn't hundreds of years ago, but it comes across to like they're a newly formed band who are doing this recording and aren't having a chance to shine (meaning the hobbit music won't shine!). Maybe Pope is playing it down so it wows everyone, or maybe I'm reading into this too much because I'm so excited.

Well the NZSO doesn't the kind of workout or have the kind of experience that the LPO does, nor has it worked in the film score setting as consistently as the other bigger orchestras have seen. There's still a lot of sides of music they haven't been exposed to, and that's probably why Pope calls them a "young" group.

It's on his fb page. You just have be one of his friends to see it. It's in response to another comment.

[tannhauser 101]

But why on earth was he conducting?

[KK 3,307]

Wait, Pope is conducting the score?! Where'd you read that? Shore is very particular on conducting his own works.

I wonder if Shores sitting somewhere in the park, feeding the birds, wondering why ever agreed to score these films in the first place.

[Faleel 5,342]

Perhaps Shore is conducting the orchestra, and Pope is conducting the L voices (with a few exceptions) or the other way around (with a few exceptions).

[Jay 37,323]

Wait, Pope is conducting the score?! Where'd you read that? Shore is very particular on conducting his own works.

Read the first post that started this entire conversation:

http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=23304&p=939263

[tannhauser 101]

From the post which we are discussing "Every day is filled with orchestrating, reviews, conforms, meetings or conducting."

He's in New Zealand so he can't be conducting the London Voices. And I doubt Shore would go all the way to London just to conduct the choir. He must mean he's conducting the NZSO. It's strange. Because Shore always orchestrates and conducts. This is a pretty mad guess, but maybe Pope is conducting pickups for the AUJ extended edition? It's release date was slightly delayed after all.

[KK 3,307]

Wow, didn't notice that bit. Perhaps it's as Faleel said and Pope is conducting the L voices (Howard would more likely write for the orchestra), but shouldn't he be at London then?

Or maybe Pope is conducting rehearsals?

[gkgyver 1,645]

Less conducting, more energy for composing is probably a good idea given the outcome of AUJ.

[KK 3,307]

Shore always conducts and orchestrates his work, that's how he likes to work. I can understand why Pope was hired because Shore may find himself struggling to get all the orchestrating done (very time-consuming work) with Jackson's crazy last minute work schedule. But I can't see why Shore wouldn't be conducting. He's more than capable of handling writing and conducting. I don't think conducting would take away from the quality of his writing.

[Jim Ware 526]

This suggest something about something that might be relevant to the topic at hand.

http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130921/COMM/309210310/-1/COMM02

[Faleel 5,342]

That Pope is conducting so that Shore can go to church?

[Once 604]

Pope is a great conductor, I'm not worried.

[tannhauser 101]

That makes sense. The Pope would surely encourge church-going!

[Faleel 5,342]

Even though it seems Shore would go Episcopalian....

[gkgyver 1,645]

Even though it seems Shore would go Episcopalian....

Didn't you listen to "Khazad-Dum"? He's obviously satanist.

[Faleel 5,342]

I don't know, I think a servant of the enemy would seem fairer and feel fouler, if you understand.

[chuck 154]

Even though it seems Shore would go Episcopalian....

Didn't you listen to "Khazad-Dum"? He's obviously satanist.

Obviously he's an avid fan of Ave Satani

[Jim Ware 526]

This suggest something about something that might be relevant to the topic at hand.

http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130921/COMM/309210310/-1/COMM02

And to follow up...

http://www.sloatsburgvillage.com/2013/09/30/howard-shores-music-magic/