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Howard Shore's The Desolation Of Smaug (Hobbit Part 2)


gkgyver
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What's the theme heard from 0:42 to 0:52 in The Forest River?

I was wondering about this as well. Sounds too specific to be random heroic material.

I just remembered where I'd heard it before.

@ 0:25-35

That doesn't sound remotely similar.

What? You can't hear the harmonic similarities?

It's most likely a chordal motif Shore borrowed RotK's prologue - a minor motif for Middle Earth's rivers.

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Right, but like the ascending Moria motif over the logos in TTT, it foreshadows what we're about to see.


The chords may be similar but it doesn't sound particularly like the bit from ROTK.

That's because the orchestration and metre has been transformed. The chords aren't just similar - they're identical.

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Or an elvish woman trying to help/help young person theme.

No, the Ring theme never was about the Ring. It's a "magical artifact with great power" theme. That's why it plays in the scene where Gandalf get his new staff.

No it was always a Gondorian theme. ;)

And I never changed the Association with Arwe, I just expanded is usage. ;)

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No, its not An Elvish Pledge.

that only occurs in Doors of Durin and The Host of the Eldar IIRC

No, I don't mean THAT theme, but the theme for Arwen praying for Frodo's life at Bruinen. I don't think that is Arwen's theme per se, it goes into a different direction.

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What is Arwen theme doing in this score, by the way? That bit when she first appears in FOTR and then at the end of ROTK.

Karol

I would assume its become a "Grace of the Elves/Elven Women" theme

It's the elvish pledge that is quoted, not her theme itself, no?

In Doug's book this theme is called Arwen Revealed and can be heard here at the very start.

Karol

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What is Arwen theme doing in this score, by the way? That bit when she first appears in FOTR and then at the end of ROTK.

Karol

I would assume its become a "Grace of the Elves/Elven Women" theme

It's the elvish pledge that is quoted, not her theme itself, no?

In Doug's book this theme is called Arwen Revealed and can be heard here at the very start.

Karol

It's certainly based on "Arwen Revealed", but to me it was always a variation on that, since the ascending echoing lines aren't part of her theme.

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Will we be finding out about Gondor Reborn or the Nazgul themes any time soon? Their use doesn't seem quite consistent with LOTR.

Now there is a question Doug wasn't asked before :mrgreen:

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The answer is: mad editing schedule.


That's what I figured. Thanks!

Could you give any support on Beorn's theme? Some people apparently have problems believing me that he has a noticeable one ;)

Georg is essentially correct about Beorn's theme.

Good to know I haven't become completely tone-deaf. I love that rendition in the first minute of The House Of Beorn, it's atmospherically somewhat reminiscent of Strider's introduction in Bree.

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That's what I figured. Thanks!

Could you give any support on Beorn's theme? Some people apparently have problems believing me that he has a noticeable one ;)

Georg is essentially correct about Beorn's theme.

Take that Jason! ;)

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And for all the people that complain about the 2-discs of the DOS score being unwieldy in terms of having to switch discs, remember that in the old days, some soundtracks were released as two LP discs, and some LP discs had two sides!

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The answer is: mad editing schedule.

That's what I figured. Thanks!

Could you give any support on Beorn's theme? Some people apparently have problems believing me that he has a noticeable one ;)

Georg is essentially correct about Beorn's theme.

Good to know I haven't become completely tone-deaf. I love that rendition in the first minute of The House Of Beorn, it's atmospherically somewhat reminiscent of Strider's introduction in Bree.

More than reminiscent I'd say. I thought Shore was repeating that section (that's a good thing - I love that bit).

And for all the people that complain about the 2-discs of the DOS score being unwieldy in terms of having to switch discs, remember that in the old days, some soundtracks were released as two LP discs, and some LP discs had two sides!

Hard drives don't need switching... get with the times!

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I've been really busy lately so I haven't had the time to express my thoughts on this score.

Just a note about the use of old themes like the Arwen stuff and Bree being quoted. I think the fact that the cue is named "Kingsfoil" points to the fact that such scenes are making nostalgic nods to the original trilogy. So its not so much of specific thematic significance as it is a matter of making that "nostalgic nod".

The Nazgul theme and the Gondor Reborn theme....well that's just last minute production issues.

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Or an elvish woman trying to help/help young person theme.

What is it with themes that are "repurposed" in The Hobbit and that get renamed by fans?

No, the Nazgûl theme was never about the Nazgûl. It's just a "bad guys doing bad things" theme.

No, the Gondor Reborn theme was never about Gondor. It's a "people bowing in front of Hobbits" theme.

No, Arwen's theme was never about Arwen. It's a "elvish woman trying to help young person" theme.

What's next?

No, the Ring theme never was about the Ring. It's a "magical artifact with great power" theme. That's why it plays in the scene where Gandalf get his new staff.

That's why I don't think we should rename the themes. They're just themes from LOTR applied to similar situations in the Hobbit. It's quite nice, like the Legolas moment in LOTR and now the Hobbit. After all the hobbit is being told from within the events of LOTR (with old bilbo telling the story).

Ahem...Old bilbo is telling the story well before LOTR happens. And he never took part of the LOTR storyline... so he cannot be writing the hobbing with the events in LOTR in mind... :P

He finishes it in rivendell but we have not seen that yet (I suppose TABA will end with old bilbo there)

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OK I'm after my third full listen. It's among the best of 2013, clearly. It's interesting how little old material gets carried over from the old trilogy, it's almost all The Hobbit stuff. And it's all for the best. That's what I wanted in the first place - an expansion of Middle Earth.

What is Arwen theme doing in this score, by the way? That bit when she first appears in FOTR and then at the end of ROTK.

Karol

Or an elvish woman trying to help/help young person theme. I think it's just another moment in the hobbit with music from LOTR where a scene is similar, which I quite like.

On the piano sheet music of The Return of the King, this theme is called "Tinuviel's song" .

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What's the theme heard from 0:42 to 0:52 in The Forest River?

I was wondering about this as well. Sounds too specific to be random heroic material.

I just remembered where I'd heard it before.

@ 0:25-35

Could Doug confirm that this is just a coincidence?

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What's the theme heard from 0:42 to 0:52 in The Forest River?

I was wondering about this as well. Sounds too specific to be random heroic material.

I just remembered where I'd heard it before.

@ 0:25-35

Huh? That's not the same ...?

It's the same exchange between two chords - Bbm to C. Only major difference is that one is in 3/4 and the other's in 4/4.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKSiMhKaRRQ&feature=youtube_gdata

The same juxtaposition of a pair of chords appears during the Stone Giants' tiff, doesn't it?

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I never claimed there wasn't a theme for Beorn.... Just that I didn't notice anything on the OST that sounded like one to me.

Gkgyver posted like six different timestamp in Wilderland and House of Beorn that he thought was Beorn's theme; I personally didn't even hear the same melody being played at all those timestamps. Some of them though, yes. If that's Beorn's theme, it's not very strong or catchy.

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The TORn review for example says there is no theme for Beorn. Let me see ...

In "Wilderland", from 0:48-0:58, and 1:45-2:15, 2:22-2:31, then the action variation that follows, around 3:15, then slow and ominous from 4:09 to the end. Almost the entire track is an exploration of Beorn's theme.

Then in "The House of Beorn", it starts with the beginning of the theme ascending, passing from the first violins to the flutes, until about 0:26. This is immediately followed by a wonderfully gnarly reading of the theme by lower celli, harmonized with the bassoons.

In between is the first statement of the motif for Mirkwood, followed by the Woodland Realm, then again Mirkwood. Not sure if the boy soprano is singing Beorn's motif.

But starting around 3:05, the violin sections gather a last rousing statement of Beorn's theme.

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The TORn review for example says there is no theme for Beorn. Let me see ...

In "Wilderland", from 0:48-0:58, and 1:45-2:15, 2:22-2:31, then the action variation that follows, around 3:15, then slow and ominous from 4:09 to the end. Almost the entire track is an exploration of Beorn's theme.

Then in "The House of Beorn", it starts with the beginning of the theme ascending, passing from the first violins to the flutes, until about 0:26. This is immediately followed by a wonderfully gnarly reading of the theme by lower celli, harmonized with the bassoons.

In between is the first statement of the motif for Mirkwood, followed by the Woodland Realm, then again Mirkwood. Not sure if the boy soprano is singing Beorn's motif.

But starting around 3:05, the violin sections gather a last rousing statement of Beorn's theme.

So it's a figure whose preeminent identifying feature is (I would venture to say) a minor chord followed by a major chord a (major) third lower - just as in The Reclamation of Nature, or whatever it's called - with the accompanying melody being some variety of mainly-stepwise ascent?

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I thought that first statement is the new Erebor theme...

There's a melodic similarity, isn't there? - but my (uneducated) impression is that the new Erebor theme, like the earlier one, is solidly based on a minor chord juxtaposed with a major chord one tone lower...

(By the way, I've just realised that my last three posts all make reference to some pair of alternating chords and presume to characterise a particular theme in terms of them. I want to make it clear that that is indeed the limit of my ability when it comes to musical discourse.)

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I thought that first statement is the new Erebor theme...

Well, it could be, there probably is some similarity. After all, Doug said my guess was "essentially" correct, not "completely" correct ;)

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What's the theme heard from 0:42 to 0:52 in The Forest River?

I was wondering about this as well. Sounds too specific to be random heroic material.

I just remembered where I'd heard it before.

@ 0:25-35

Could Doug confirm that this is just a coincidence?

I really think that's just a harmonic Shore-ism and not an outright thematic link. But who knows?

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