The Definitive John Williams Plagiarism/Homage Thread

[Loert 2,511]

If I had a penny for every time John Williams "accidentally" borrowed a theme I'd be as rich as he is right now.

[mrbellamy 6,278]

I had a music teacher who insisted tonality died with Debussy lol. Sometimes when I hear the way melodies circle around each other I get his point. I guess you either understand the limits and enjoy them for what they are or not. 

[BB-8 3,472]

 

What on Earth does this remind me of?

[Martinland 358]

On 31/08/2022 at 7:01 PM, BB-8 said:

What on Earth does this remind me of?

Battlestar Galactica by Stu Phillips and Korngold's own Robin Hood?

[Fabulin 3,511]

.

[BB-8 3,472]

Prokofiev quoted Beethoven's Jaws Theme in Peter and the Wolf.

 

 

[Tom Guernsey 2,283]

On 20/02/2023 at 2:04 AM, Fabulin said:

.

I'm sure it's basically sacrilege but I often find that film composers using fairly clear classical precedents give the material much more rhythmic vitality; the similarity here is clear, albeit feels somewhat less intentional than other of JW's more well known lifts but that 5 note motif in Duel of the Fates sounds much more exciting than the Saint-Saëns, those longer, on the beat, chords in the background make it all sound a bit plodding rather than barrelling along like JW. Similar with the 10 note melody in DotF and the choral parts, which play off the beat so it keeps everything driving forward. People can bitch about JW for ripping stuff off all they like, but he always makes it his own and, in situations like this, turns it into something considerably more exciting for my money. 

 

(I'd say the same goes for Willow's theme/Schumann's 3rd Symphony - James Horner changes the time signature and gives it far more energy and momentum than Schumann did, much though I like Schumann!).

[Fabulin 3,511]

6 hours ago, Tom Guernsey said:

I'm sure it's basically sacrilege but I often find that film composers using fairly clear classical precedents give the material much more rhythmic vitality; the similarity here is clear, albeit feels somewhat less intentional than other of JW's more well known lifts but that 5 note motif in Duel of the Fates sounds much more exciting than the Saint-Saëns, those longer, on the beat, chords in the background make it all sound a bit plodding rather than barrelling along like JW. Similar with the 10 note melody in DotF and the choral parts, which play off the beat so it keeps everything driving forward. People can bitch about JW for ripping stuff off all they like, but he always makes it his own and, in situations like this, turns it into something considerably more exciting for my money. 

 

(I'd say the same goes for Willow's theme/Schumann's 3rd Symphony - James Horner changes the time signature and gives it far more energy and momentum than Schumann did, much though I like Schumann!).

My contributions to this thread are usually in jest. While Saint-Saëns was a titan in his own right, and an underrated one, too, Williams is still the better composer of the two imho.

[Will 2,215]

 

 

[Fabulin 3,511]

The Hunt for the Red October 

 

[artguy360 1,843]

On 21/02/2023 at 5:57 AM, Tom Guernsey said:

I'm sure it's basically sacrilege but I often find that film composers using fairly clear classical precedents give the material much more rhythmic vitality; the similarity here is clear, albeit feels somewhat less intentional than other of JW's more well known lifts but that 5 note motif in Duel of the Fates sounds much more exciting than the Saint-Saëns, those longer, on the beat, chords in the background make it all sound a bit plodding rather than barrelling along like JW. Similar with the 10 note melody in DotF and the choral parts, which play off the beat so it keeps everything driving forward. People can bitch about JW for ripping stuff off all they like, but he always makes it his own and, in situations like this, turns it into something considerably more exciting for my money. 

 

(I'd say the same goes for Willow's theme/Schumann's 3rd Symphony - James Horner changes the time signature and gives it far more energy and momentum than Schumann did, much though I like Schumann!).

I totally agree. I think JW takes classical inspirations and makes the music speak more directly with a kind of immediacy that the classical inspirations often lack.

[GerateWohl 4,357]

Saint-Saën is supposed to be listened to in the concert hall and is not related to fast pace laser sword fights.

Of course we love listening to Williams' music in concerts. But for people at the time of Saint-Saën Duell of the Fates sounds like punk rock with these monotone always same ostinati. We are familiar far less vaiable music patterns from pop and minimal music. So, we are used to it and admire it. But we are also not just listening to music two or three times a week for an hour.

Williams music is more suited for our nump ears.

[Tom Guernsey 2,283]

On 02/03/2023 at 5:17 PM, Will said:

 

 

Hmmm, feels more like general inspiration than a specific lift, but a good excuse to listen to the Walton piece which I like a lot!  Plenty of busier JW music has antecedents in Walton, particularly in the slightly jazzy, off kilter rhythms. Obviously the most well known is the Throne Room and Crown Imperial/Orb and Sceptre, but Walton's musical fingerprints are all over certain areas of JW's style, but as I say, nothing I've ever thought that was hugely specific.

4 hours ago, artguy360 said:

I totally agree. I think JW takes classical inspirations and makes the music speak more directly with a kind of immediacy that the classical inspirations often lack.

For sure, although I would say that I am a huge fan of classical music, but it's interesting how some film composers have turned their inspiration into something more immediate and memorable.

1 hour ago, GerateWohl said:

Saint-Saën is supposed to be listened to in the concert hall and is not related to fast pace laser sword fights.

Of course we love listening to Williams' music in concerts. But for people at the time of Saint-Saën Duell of the Fates sounds like punk rock with these monotone always same ostinati. We are familiar far less vaiable music patterns from pop and minimal music. So, we are used to it and admire it. But we are also not just listening to music two or three times a week for an hour.

Williams music is more suited for our nump ears.

I take your point, but it does make me think that Saint-Saëns should just have lived longer to score a Star Wars movie... maybe he'd have chucked in an organ, just because ;-) But yeah, I guess rhythm in particular moved on quite a lot during the 20th century so a lot of 19th century music can feel a bit plodding in comparison. As noted, both JW and Walton use lots of jazz type rhythms, not to mention jazz influenced chords, which give their music a texture that old romantics wouldn't yet have come across.

[GerateWohl 4,357]

27 minutes ago, Tom Guernsey said:

I take your point, but it does make me think that Saint-Saëns should just have lived longer to score a Star Wars movie... maybe he'd have chucked in an organ, just because ;-) But yeah, I guess rhythm in particular moved on quite a lot during the 20th century so a lot of 19th century music can feel a bit plodding in comparison. As noted, both JW and Walton use lots of jazz type rhythms, not to mention jazz influenced chords, which give their music a texture that old romantics wouldn't yet have come across.

I mean, yes, even the performances of classical works have become in a way much sharper and more accentuated in the past 20 years as if the performers aim for kind of a modern more rhytmic touch to the old classics. Bach is a good example which some performers seem to try to give the sonatas a Phillip Glass touch.

 

Still I think, that in Williams music we find *in almost every aspect the best of both worlds. The pleasant and recognizable and still original thematic work, the romatic harmonic complexity and compositional sophistication paired with a rhytmical drive and strenght that is really unique, never dump as in so many modern scores, that don't aim for modernization of classic orchestration but orchestra techno.

[Jurassic Shark 12,062]

Hm, I'll have to check him out.

[BB-8 3,472]

This reminded me of Jabba's Baroque Recital...

 

 

 

[Schilkeman 962]

I always find a lot of these connections nebulous at best, and don't hold up to real scrutiny, including this one, but it's a connection my brain makes. 

 

 

 

 

[Schilkeman 962]

On 15/04/2022 at 8:15 AM, Tom Guernsey said:

Oh yes! Don’t know how I didn’t spot that. Interesting that JW’s RVW influences are more textural and orchestration than more specific as for some other composers. 

I too have always found a thread of Vaughan Williams running through his music, almost equal to Prokofiev and Tchaikovsky. Like you said, always in tone and style, and less a direct example of his influences, War Horse not withstanding.

[Faleel 5,346]

Approaching the Stones 1:32 vs Den of the Rancor 1:50

 

 

Not the same, but I just thought of one while thinking of the other.

[Brónach 1,302]

On 21/02/2023 at 1:57 PM, Tom Guernsey said:

I'm sure it's basically sacrilege but I often find that film composers using fairly clear classical precedents give the material much more rhythmic vitality; the similarity here is clear, albeit feels somewhat less intentional than other of JW's more well known lifts but that 5 note motif in Duel of the Fates sounds much more exciting than the Saint-Saëns, those longer, on the beat, chords in the background make it all sound a bit plodding rather than barrelling along like JW. Similar with the 10 note melody in DotF and the choral parts, which play off the beat so it keeps everything driving forward. P

 

i always thought the ostinato in this part of the movie was just the tail of the fate theme.

[Schilkeman 962]

On 25/04/2023 at 3:49 AM, Tom Guernsey said:

For sure, although I would say that I am a huge fan of classical music, but it's interesting how some film composers have turned their inspiration into something more immediate and memorable.

I believe David. W. Collins called this "a pop-oriented sense of phrasing," or something to that effect. I believe it was in comparing The Little People Work with The Rite of Spring, and JW's more immediate and identifiable sense of melody. But he does that for the movies. His concert works are full of more abstract melodic concepts favored by other art music composers.

 

Film music, in which the identity of the music may only have a few seconds to establish itself, must be more clear and direct in voice. Like an establishing shot in Star Wars. JW is a master of this.

[BB-8 3,472]

 

[Brónach 1,302]

needs more timpani

[Fabulin 3,511]

Thatsh for blashphemy

 

[Loert 2,511]

1 hour ago, Fabulin said:

Thatsh for blashphemy

...

 

Where is the blasphemy? I've known this piece for a while but never associated it with JW

[Bellosh 3,418]

i'm guessing scherzo for motorcycle and orchestra?

[Loert 2,511]

Ah! I see now. Yes, there is some similarity...

[Bellosh 3,418]

Just now, Loert said:

Ah! I see now. Yes, there is some similarity...

 

i literally only guessed it cause of the blasphemy quote

[Loert 2,511]

2 minutes ago, Bellosh said:

 

i literally only guessed it cause of the blasphemy quote

 

I thought "Thatsh" was an acronym for something, lol

[Brónach 1,302]

it hash shuperficial shimilaritiesh, you can tell by the croshection

[Edmilson 7,434]

1 hour ago, Brónach said:

it hash shuperficial shimilaritiesh, you can tell by the croshection

Drax, is that you? 

[Brónach 1,302]

Drax the Destroyer?

[Mr. Hooper 1,778]

Threw on 'Jason and the Argonauts' and heard this...which sounds like something Steven Spielberg would've laughed at, if it was suggested as a musical motif for a shark...

 

 

[Loert 2,511]

 

[Bespin 8,480]

23 minutes ago, Loert said:

 

 

You are all mistaken.

 

Watch "Creature from the Black Lagoon (1954)"...

[JoeinAR 1,949]

You can here familiar bests in CE3K that john also uses in Jaws 2.  His own version of Hornerisms

[Mr. Hooper 1,778]

5 hours ago, Bespin said:

 

You are all mistaken.

 

Watch "Creature from the Black Lagoon (1954)"...

I have ages ago and may have noticed, but memory fails me. A good excuse to watch it again. 👍

 

Here's a little trivia...

 

Chris Mueller Jr., the man who sculpted parts of the 'Gill-man', also sculpted the beached orca in Jaws 2.

 

He put a lot of detail in the mouth seen here, which unfortunately was lost onscreen.

 

 

[Tallguy 3,385]

Arrrgh! From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_influence_of_Holst's_The_Planets

 

"John Williams used the melodies and instrumentation of Mars as the inspiration for "The Imperial March" and "Imperial Attack" themes in his soundtrack for the Star Wars films. In addition, he used Venus as inspiration for the Force theme."

 

Why? HOW?!?

[Jurassic Shark 12,062]

11 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

Why? HOW?!?

 

Through the act of plagiarism?

[Mr. Hooper 1,778]

I read that Lucas needed some convincing to abandon his Holst temp tracks in favour of an original score... So Williams must've thought, "Okay, I'll give him some Holst!"

 

He was pretty blatant about it too, so I just can't cry "plagiarism," but cheerfully call it "homage" instead.

[Jurassic Shark 12,062]

I'm sure it can be argued that every single score JW has written is based on The Planets. 

 

On 23/09/2022 at 11:03 PM, Martinland said:

Battlestar Galactica by Stu Phillips and Korngold's own Robin Hood?

 

E.T.

 

On 04/08/2023 at 2:59 PM, Brónach said:

needs more timpani

 

The timpanists were all dead. 

[Tallguy 3,385]

55 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

I read that Lucas needed some convincing to abandon his Holst temp tracks in favour of an original score... So Williams must've thought, "Okay, I'll give him some Holst!"

 

He was pretty blatant about it too, so I just can't cry "plagiarism," but cheerfully call it "homage" instead.

 

I have no trouble (because I'm not stupid) with people saying parts of Star Wars are based on Mars. Because they are. It's when people can't really tell you much about Star Wars other than the main theme and Ben's theme / The Force Theme (which doesn't sound anything like Venus, thank you) and the Imperial (Death?) March is WAY more famous and it's got some low bassey kind of parts, so sure, THAT must be based on The Planets, right?

 

55 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

I'm sure it can be argued that every single score JW has written is based on The Planets. 

 

I've known people to make that argument. Heck, my horoscope in The Onion once said this: "The ghost of Gustav Holst will appear before you and refuse to leave until you admit that John Williams has been ripping him off for decades."

[Mr. Hooper 1,778]

Yeah, I understand your frustration. Like when I see clickbait YouTube vids "exposing" the obvious similarities like they're blowing the lid off some big secret, but they conveniently don't bother to mention the rest of the score, or that the similarities were intended to evoke The Planets in an undisguised way.

 

As for Holstian stuff in Williams, besides Star Wars, the only thing that comes to mind for me is the resemblance, albeit slight, of these two:

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Schilkeman 962]

Let me tell you something about band nerds in high school. they listen to The Planets, they listen to Carmina Burana, they listen to Dvorak's 9th, and if they're feeling adventurous, they may listen to Aaron Copland. Then they grow up and get jobs writing about pop culture, which inevitably leads them to write something about Star Wars, and how Williams "copied" Holst and Dvorak.

 

They don't understand temp scores, they don't listen to any other Star Wars soundtracks, and they definitely don't know the difference between plagiarism and homage.

[Will 2,215]

 

 

Some interesting influence here that I just discovered!