Star Wars, Indy and Superman, not enough use of the main "bridge" themes??

[King Mark 3,625]

Ok, is it just me or Williams really underused the "b" or bridge themes of the main theme in all these scores

In Star Wars trilogy it can be heard in Throne Room and a few other places like the unused music in Ice Planet Hoth (that great trumpet solo), but that's about it

In Indiana Jones, there's Desert Chase and Portuguese Coast and maybe a few other quotes

In Superman it's pretty much ignored in all of the underscore except 1 action cue. Alexander Courage really used it more in Superman 4 (like the United Nations cue)

I think all these scores could have used more "noble" renditions of the "b" main themes

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Perhaps in the case of Star Wars and Superman, JW didnt come up with then untill he sat down to do the full main title arrangements.

With Raiders he doesnt even play Indy's theme in full up untill the submarine scene.

[King Mark 3,625]

Well in Raiders you get a lot of quotes of the A theme before that, especially in Escape from Peru and the beginning of Desert Chase

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yes, but it's never, ever played in full.

[King Mark 3,625]

Well, ok then ,but I'm talking globally in all the Indy movies

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Well i guess you do have a point for the sequels.

Especially Star Wars, is the B theme even in ROTJ?

[King Mark 3,625]

hmm, I don't think so

and it's not in Empire except for that unused music bit

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Maybe he simply forgot about it.

[King Mark 3,625]

I just wish Williams had done more variations on these b themes, as they seem to lend themselves to the kind of noble writing Williams is capable of doing. Like for more quiet and reflective moments

[Hlao-roo 389]

Emblematic of the proclivity to wanton excess that has dogged Williams his whole career. By contrast, the late, great Jerry Goldsmith -- widely celebrated as the premier composer of his generation -- wrote lean, frequently monothematic scores with nary a wasted note, a formula from which he deviated only when called upon to ape Williams' melodic extravagances.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Hardly monothematic!

[Hlao-roo 389]

Hardly monothematic!

Quite so!

[chuck 154]

Hey, it's anything but mono! That's Zimmer, duh.

[Hlao-roo 389]

Hey, it's anything but mono! That's Zimmer, duh.

I believe that's below mono -- a testament to Zimmer's astounding economy of musical expression.

[chuck 154]

Hey, it's anything but mono! That's Zimmer, duh.

I believe that's below mono -- a testament to Zimmer's astounding economy of musical expression.

I believe there's a term for that - it's called nono. In Zimmer's case, he frequently uses what is generally referred to as "big nonos".

[nightscape94 965]

Yes, but it's never, ever played in full.

And to better effect because of it, up until that point.

[Incanus 5,713]

Yes, but it's never, ever played in full.

And to better effect because of it, up until that point.

Williams really uses the B-section of the Raiders March as a kind of "turn of the tide" signal to tell us that Indy is winning or is gaining the upper hand as he is so often hard pressed to best his enemies even though he does so in the end. There is that "completing a phrase" feel to the B-section (or the bridge melody) which is determined and resolute and adds to the feeling of success of Indy's escapades whether Desert or Jungle Chase. And naturally Indy has to earn this musical signal so it is not used every time like the opening phrase of the hero's theme.

[Ludwig 1,120]

I would think that there are two related reasons why these B sections don't make much of an appearance in these films.

1) The A section of these themes function as the leitmotif for the hero, so there is no need to bring in the B section for any leitmotivic work (something like a little brother who's always left behind). After all, that is usually how the A section is used in these films.

2) B sections are usually a sort of liaison between two thematic statements. In Star Wars, Indy, and Superman, the main function of the B section is to provide more subdued, contrasting music that builds up to a big, triumphant-sounding return of the A section. In other words, it's there to give the music a structure based on musical principles. That's why they're an absolute necessity for main-title and end-credit versions. In the course of a film, the structure of the music is dictated by the narrative, and the emotional shifts within action films are usually so quick that there's no room to have a B section that leads to a triumphant A. All you really need is action music, then the A theme when the hero is triumphant.

[russds 8]

Williams really uses the B-section of the Raiders March as a kind of "turn of the tide" signal to tell us that Indy is winning or is gaining the upper hand as he is so often hard pressed to best his enemies even though he does so in the end. There is that "completing a phrase" feel to the B-section (or the bridge melody) which is determined and resolute and adds to the feeling of success of Indy's escapades whether Desert or Jungle Chase. And naturally Indy has to earn this musical signal so it is not used every time like the opening phrase of the hero's theme.

My thoughts were this too. There's that great use of the "B" theme in Last Crusade when Indy starts to gain ground during "The Boat Escape". It seems that JW used this theme often when Indy was gaining ground, or things were turning in his favor, and maybe just because it worked well for that. Also like @ludwig said, it seems the "B" themes were most often there for the opening and end credits, the overture sections of the score where bridges were necessary, but in some cases, as in the Indy "B" theme, it also worked great for some specific instances.

[stuttersteps 1]

Well i guess you do have a point for the sequels.

Especially Star Wars, is the B theme even in ROTJ?

Isn't there a quote of it in Into the Trap?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Ah yes! That's a great moment actually.

[Jay 37,287]

The Star Wars B Theme is indeed AWESOME in it's uses in Empire (Ice Planet Hoth) and Jedi (Into The Trap). I never really realized before how under-used it is, I guess.

Williams is great at writing these sort of awesome mini-themes that are only used once or twice, and are good enough to be the main theme of an entire score. Like the jeep theme from Jurassic Park

[stewdog1 50]

As for the Indy A and B themes, weren't they two separate main theme ideas originally and JW couldn't decide which to use and Spielberg suggested combining them?

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[King Mark 3,625]

I think he said that for Indiana Jones

[Jay 37,287]

Yep.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

36, 35, and 32 years a little late to worry about it now, especially since all 3 scores are at the top of his game.

Each is unique and a bit of perfection in their own right,

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Hey, it's anything but mono! That's Zimmer, duh.

I believe that's below mono -- a testament to Zimmer's astounding economy of musical expression.

I believe there's a term for that - it's called nono. In Zimmer's case, he frequently uses what is generally referred to as "big nonos".

Okay this made me laugh

[russds 8]

As for the Indy A and B themes, weren't they two separate main theme ideas originally and JW couldn't decide which to use and Spielberg suggested combining them?

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True. Spielberg has mentioned that in a few interviews I've seen. I've always wondered how the theme/score would have gone if he had chosen just one. It's fun to imagine a Raiders march just based on theme A or B. How sweet would it be to hear some full theme demo that JW did 36+ years ago that had just used theme A or B.