Avatar 2, 3 and 4 or how James Cameron stopped worrying and pulled The Hobbit on us

[Nick1Ø66 4,689]

3 hours ago, NL197 said:

James Horner also said at the time of release, that he needed to pull the music back from being avant garde and too 'alien' to what the final result was, because audiences will tolerate unconventional visuals, but not unconventional music for a big film like that, so it had to be grounded in something more palatable. 

 

Exactly. These guys knew what they were doing.

[TolkienSS 405]

6 hours ago, NL197 said:

^^ Very true statements. 

James Horner also said at the time of release, that he needed to pull the music back from being avant garde and too 'alien' to what the final result was, because audiences will tolerate unconventional visuals, but not unconventional music for a big film like that, so it had to be grounded in something more palatable. 

 

Are you sure that's true? James Horner has never been a man of particular modesty.

Sounds like Yeah, so, I've actually created a masterpiece, but it was way too sophisticated, so sadly because audiences are dumb, I just had to write my usual music.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,507]

Maybe Horner just went down the Star Wars route: ground the film, by making the music familiar, and accessable.

[TolkienSS 405]

8 minutes ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

Maybe Horner just went down the Star Wars route: ground the film, by making the music familiar, and accessable.

 

Though Star Wars was way more original than Avatar.

Avatar is so generic that more "avantgarde" would have done the film good.

[GerateWohl 4,343]

Everybody knows this video about the Avatar score?

 

 

[Andy 4,090]

10 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

Is Avatar the first James Cameron thing you’ve seen that you felt had poor rewatch value?

 

Yavar

For me, the Abyss falls into that category.  But after all this discussion I sort of want to rewatch both Avatar and Abyss. 
 

@GerateWohlnailed it with it taking itself so seriously.  I think of Avatar and the immediate impression I hear in my head is Horner’s choir and Zoe Saldana’s wailing.  It really is heavy handed, and that to me is why it isn’t fun to revisit. 
 

It would be cool (and wise) if Cameron changed the overall tone for the sequels to make it a more peppy and adventurous romp, but there’s no indication of that happening. 

[Nick1Ø66 4,689]

18 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

Is Avatar the first James Cameron thing you’ve seen that you felt had poor rewatch value?

 

 

Well, yes. For the reasons I mentioned...Avatar is meant as spectacle...an in-cinema experience. I wouldn't compare it to Aliens or any of his other films, it's in a category of its own. And it's designed that way. While I'm sure he's happy to collect the royalties, I don't think Cameron at any point meant for Avatar to be a home viewing experience (which is what I mean by its low-rewatchability) . As I said, the only film I can think of that's really comparable is Gravity. 

 

Avatar didn't become the biggest film of all time because of plot or character. It's because it delivered a stellar cinematic experience that audiences wanted to keep going back to (some, a little too much). 

[Andy 4,090]

I just ran through some select scenes in 3D on a good size screen.  The spectacle is definitely there.  The final Ewok battle is fun to watch.  Cameron always seems most comfortable when presenting cool tech on screen.

 

I think one big reason it isn't re-watchable is it's just too dang long.

[NL197 368]

9 hours ago, TolkienSS said:

 

Are you sure that's true? James Horner has never been a man of particular modesty.

Sounds like Yeah, so, I've actually created a masterpiece, but it was way too sophisticated, so sadly because audiences are dumb, I just had to write my usual music.

I will look for the source interviews he did. 

[Yavar Moradi 2,592]

5 hours ago, Andy said:

I think one big reason it isn't re-watchable is it's just too dang long.

Titanic is long and rewatchable.

 

The Lord of the Rings is *really* long and rewatchable….

 

Yavar

[Andy 4,090]

2 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

Titanic is long and rewatchable.

 

The Lord of the Rings is *really* long and rewatchable….

 

Yavar

Of course, but it’s relative to the complexity of the story to be told.  LOTR has dozens of character arcs and layer upon layer of story.  We agreed Avatar is a simple story.  It needn’t be Titanic length (I’ve only seen that one once too).   If they banged it out in 2 hours and lightened up on the heavy handed mumbo jumbo, it could’ve improved its cultural impact and staying power.
 

 

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

Avatar may be heavy handed but at least least it's not undercutting every dramatic moment with terrible quips like the Marvel movies.  

It's a long movie but I actually really enjoy the more methodical pace.  It allows the viewer to really get enveloped in the movie

[NL197 368]

Here's one. 

It's a Variety article, courtesy the Wayback Machine: 

https://web.archive.org/web/20100722020443/http://www.variety.com/article/VR1118011440.html?categoryid=16&cs=1

 

Cameron himself talked about grounding the music in a familiarity on the Avatar Blu-ray extras. 

 

 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,507]

15 hours ago, Andy said:

Abyss falls into that category.  But after all this discussion I sort of want to rewatch...Abyss.
 

@GerateWohl

THE ABYSS is my favourite Cameron film, by a country mile.

The Special Edition: 

[Jay 37,322]

With Avatar 2 And 3 Still Filming, Production Has Already Begun On Avatar 4

[Edmilson 7,398]

During the editing process of the first movie, Cameron had to fought Fox executives to keep the flying scenes in the movie. 

 

Quote

“I think I felt, at the time, that we clashed over certain things,” Cameron said. “For example, the studio felt that the film should be shorter and that there was too much flying around on the ikran—what the humans call the banshees. Well, it turns out that’s what the audience loved the most, in terms of our exit polling and data gathering. And that’s a place where I just drew a line in the sand and said, ‘You know what? I made ‘Titanic.’ This building that we’re meeting in right now, this new half-billion dollar complex on your lot? ‘Titanic’ paid for that, so I get to do this.'”

The 20th Century Fox executives ultimately obliged, and the stunning flight scenes helped propel the film to gross nearly $3 billion at the global box office.

“And afterward, they thanked me,” Cameron said. “I feel that my job is to protect their investment, often against their own judgment. But as long as I protect their investment, all is forgiven.”

At the end of the day, Cameron is happy with the scenes that ultimately made it into the final cut of “Avatar,” and still stands by the film’s quality (even as he hopes to top it with his upcoming sequel).

“It’s such an intense process when you’re editing a film and you have to fight for every frame that stays in,” he said. “I felt pretty good about the creative decisions that were made back then. We spent a lot of time and energy improving our process in the decade-plus since. But there’s certainly nothing cringeworthy. I can see tiny places where we’ve improved facial-performance work. But it doesn’t take you out. I think it’s still competitive with everything that’s out there these days.”

 

https://www.indiewire.com/2022/09/james-cameron-avatar-studio-fight-1234763825/

[Mr. Who 919]

4 hours ago, Edmilson said:

During the editing process of the first movie, Cameron had to fought Fox executives to keep the flying scenes in the movie. 

 

 

https://www.indiewire.com/2022/09/james-cameron-avatar-studio-fight-1234763825/

Can’t wait to see it in cinemas next week again in 3D!

[Jay 37,322]

One of the clips from Avatar 2 attached to some prints of the Avatar re-release is streaming here (for now)

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rL95AXSYUC04Iv4GGADlpEm9CAZ0EotS/view

 

Why would they choose such a boring scene to promote their new film?  Yikes.

[Edmilson 7,398]

The scene is dull indeed. They should've chosen something more "showy", like they swimming, fighting, etc.

[LSH 968]

Haha, that was so pointless.

[Nick1Ø66 4,689]

Gotta admit, I was bored about 30 seconds into what was only a two-minute clip. Just looks like more of the same.

That said, after Titanic & Avatar, both of which were predicted to be flops, you really can't bet against Cameron. 

[mstrox 6,647]

That’s an odd clip to get people hyped for a sequel, but then again if you’re the type of person who would go into theaters to rewatch a mildly entertaining 13 year old movie that you probably already own at home, you were going to buy a ticket for the sequel anyway.

[Jay 37,322]

Good point!

[Disco Stu 15,495]

James Cameron's new cartoon

[NL197 368]

1 hour ago, Edmilson said:

The scene is dull indeed. They should've chosen something more "showy", like they swimming, fighting, etc.

 

They did - for swimming. 

Depending on the location / FORMAT of the film, you get either that scene in the Google Drive link, or you get a scene of the new kid characters (and I believe Kate Winslet's character...EDIT not it's not - the one I thought was her is in this Google clip while Winslet is the pregnant one. The similar faces threw me off) swimming where it shows off the underwater effects. It's a very light, peaceful scene with a taste of Simon Franglen's score that sounds firmly in line with the "Pandora" Disneyworld album. 

 

I saw it in IMAX 3D (no HFR) and that swimming scene is what I got. 

[Mr. Who 919]

13 minutes ago, NL197 said:

 

They did - for swimming. 

Depending on the location / FORMAT of the film, you get either that scene in the Google Drive link, or you get a scene of the new kid characters (and I believe Kate Winslet's character...EDIT not it's not - the one I thought was her is in this Google clip while Winslet is the pregnant one. The similar faces threw me off) swimming where it shows off the underwater effects. It's a very light, peaceful scene with a taste of Simon Franglen's score that sounds firmly in line with the "Pandora" Disneyworld album. 

 

I saw it in IMAX 3D (no HFR) and that swimming scene is what I got. 

I got the same swimming scene and it looked amazing! A friend of mine saw a scene with a Whale and apparently there is an action scene being shown as well but I can't corroborate that.

[Jean-Baptiste Martin 249]

I saw the whale scene. There is a very nice theme by Simon Franglen, reminiscent of Mighty Joe Young.

 

Concerning the scene that you find boring, I think it's perfect to show the actors' emotions. The progress since 13 years is really visible.

[Mr. Who 919]

8 minutes ago, Jean-Baptiste Martin said:

I saw the whale scene. There is a very nice theme by Simon Franglen, reminiscent of Mighty Joe Young.

The music in the swimming scene kind of reminded me of JNH and was very nice based on that first impression. I really hope that Horner's sketches are used in the final score.

[Jay 37,322]

‘Avatar 4’: Most of First Act Complete, Reveals Producer Jon Landau

[Demondm810 399]

I enjoyed the whale scene in my recent viewing.  In the Marvel heavy world, I don't mind the slowing down. 

[Jay 37,322]

Avatar: The Way of Water’ Runtime is three hours and 10 minutes

[mrbellamy 6,272]

Jim. 

[Chen G. 3,944]

Hell yeah! Bring back the long movie!

 

I think drama should be a commitment or an endeavour. Not just a 130-minute frivolity.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Most of my favorite movies are 100 or under

[JNHFan2000 2,944]

Of course, when done well, 2 hours or 2.5 hour plus films are my favorite.

I love being invested and pulled into the world a film creates. That's why I love the cinema so much.

No distractions, like at home, jist the film. There's nothing like it.

[filmmusic 1,823]

In the first one I had fallen asleep for some minutes, in the most action-packed sequences towards the end, so I don't think I will see this at the cinema.

I don't like CGI generally too, so....

Ah, I miss the old Cameron...

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Me:

On 25/08/2022 at 7:23 PM, Disco Stu said:

But it's still James Cameron, so my butt will be in a seat this December to see if he manages to capture some magic.

 

James Cameron:

 

Me:

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

52 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

Me:

 

James Cameron:

 

Me:

Gotta get to the theater fast!!

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Yeah.... that's what I'm doin'...

[Bayesian 1,359]

2 hours ago, Not Mr. Big said:

Gotta get to the theater fast!!

That's how I'm gonna interpret it. 

 

Listen folks, I'm going to bottom-line it: If Avatar 2 doesn't become the all-time box office champ, critics are going to savage Cameron and give the studios cold feet about entrusting audiences to pay for anything that's not completely tried and true. That means superhero movies, tout court.

 

Are you hearing me? All we'll ever get moving forward are stupid, derivative superhero movies until the sun burns itself out. Is that a world you want for your kids?

 

It shall be your sacred duty to put your ticket-buying ass into an IMAX seat for Avatar 2 this December and make sure this filmic hell on earth does not come to pass.

[Mr. Who 919]

I love avatar and cannot wait to see the sequel but it’s baffling to me how some people seem to have such disdain about the fact that Cameron got to make sequel movies while they’re completely fine with the next spin-off movie about Spider-Man’s gardener.

 

Of all the things to be annoyed about, a director like Cameron being able to work on his passion project on this scale is great should not be it, even if you’re not the biggest fan.

 

 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,507]

3hrs., and 10mins?!

What with trailers and adverts, that'll be about 3 3/4 hours. I could watch BEN-HUR, or LAWRENCE OF ARABIA, in that time (both of which I guarantee I'd enjoy more).

[Jean-Baptiste Martin 249]

Tomorrow the wait ends. New trailer for #AvatarTheWayOfWater debuts on @GMA. pic.twitter.com/met7oqxJ6U

— Avatar (@officialavatar) November 1, 2022

[publicist 4,643]

4 minutes ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

3hrs., and 10mins?!

What with trailers and adverts, that'll be about 3 3/4 hours. I could watch BEN-HUR, or LAWRENCE OF ARABIA, in that time (both of which I guarantee I'd enjoy more).

 

I'm not sure about Ben-Hur these days. It is an awfully long slog.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,507]

Like my tailor always says: "Never mind the quality, feel the width" 

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

4 hours ago, Mr. Who said:

I love avatar and cannot wait to see the sequel but it’s baffling to me how some people seem to have such disdain about the fact that Cameron got to make sequel movies while they’re completely fine with the next spin-off movie about Spider-Man’s gardener.

I don't know how people can muster any energy for Marvel stuff at this point.  The formula is so tired and any variance with "genres" or whatever else amounts to little more than a paint tint.

[NL197 368]

4 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

3hrs., and 10mins?!

What with trailers and adverts, that'll be about 3 3/4 hours. I could watch BEN-HUR, or LAWRENCE OF ARABIA, in that time (both of which I guarantee I'd enjoy more).

 

It's 4 minutes shorter than Titanic. 

[GerateWohl 4,343]

I hope Gargamel will be in this movie, too. And his cat.

[crumbs 14,305]

I'm pleasantly surprised about the runtime honestly. When they said the original plan was 3 sequels but they decided there was enough material for 4 films, I figured it was a Hobbit situation where they had a little too much for 2 films but could split it into 3 shorter, but padded, films purely for profit.

 

[GerateWohl 4,343]

I guess, it is rather the situation, if you are responsible for two of the most successful movies ever which are overly long, then you end up believing, that every nitty gritty idea you have for a scene in a movie is worth to stay in the final cut of your movie and you don't have to care about pace and tension anymore, because it is all good as gold. And even though usually it would be boring, it is CGI and it's 3D and another world, so it is worth watching anyway.