Avatar 2, 3 and 4 or how James Cameron stopped worrying and pulled The Hobbit on us

[JoeinAR 1,892]

It will pass 2 billion this week. My estimates were a bit off.

 

[leeallen01 2,036]

I think it's interesting that the 2nd and 3rd film started as a single script, and that Cameron knew as it 'grew in the telling' as Tolkien said, that it wouldn't fit into one film. 

 

So the battle at the end was meant to be the mid-way low point with the tragic loss, and then they presumably enter a larger conflict with perhaps attacking the human settlement 'Bridgehead City.' 

 

But Cameron has suggested the 3rd film opens with the 1st act being the summary of the conflict in The Way of Water, and then as the 3rd film continues, it further develops Pandora and its unexplored Na'vi clans.

 

I'm glad he decided to split it into more films, not just because I want more of Camerons vision, but because it was refreshing to spend time living in the underwater world and developing the kid characters more, so that the conflict and ultimate loss hits harder.

[crumbs 12,958]

59 minutes ago, leeallen01 said:

But Cameron has suggested the 3rd film opens with the 1st act being the summary of the conflict in The Way of Water, and then as the 3rd film continues, it further develops Pandora and its unexplored Na'vi clans.

 

Sounds reminiscent of the split they did for DOS and BOTFA in the Hobbit trilogy (no doubt Cameron will handle it significantly better here).

[Mr. Who 708]

In the talk with del Toro, Cameron said that for a long time the first act of A2 didn’t quite work but then they moved it to the third movie all the problems they had were solved. I think we’ll see more about what the RDA are doing in the third movie, stuff that was originall in the first act of the second movie before they go to the Metkayina people.

 

I love that we got to spend time with the characters and didn’t have to rush through anything. I was impressed after the first viewing how much I cared about all the new characters when we got to the third act. They were introduced so well. I’m seeing the movie a third time this weekend and I’m almost as hyped about seeing it again as I was for the first viewing lol! Can’t wait to see the Payakan scenes again!

[crumbs 12,958]

27 minutes ago, Mr. Who said:

In the talk with del Toro, Cameron said that for a long time the first act of A2 didn’t quite work but then they moved it to the third movie all the problems they had were solved. I think we’ll see more about what the RDA are doing in the third movie, stuff that was originall in the first act of the second movie before they go to the Metkayina people.

 

Yeah I assume they had a lot more setup at Bridgehead City about why the humans are back (probably involving Selfridge, who only cameos in the final cut but clearly has a larger role in the future), and their plans for Pandora. I wouldn't be surprised if their eventual plan is to terraform the planet with atmosphere processors, like in Aliens.

 

In the final cut of A2 they really glossed over the concept of humans abandoning earth and making Pandora the new home base, which is quite a significant plot point!

 

So it makes complete sense taking that whole chunk of story and moving it to film 3, because the primary antagonist in A2 is Quaritch and his revenge tour, not RDA. Clearly Quaritch will have some type of transformation as each film progresses, then RDA will take over as "the big bad."

[blondheim 1,031]

12 minutes ago, crumbs said:

 

Yeah I assume they had a lot more setup at Bridgehead City about why the humans are back (probably involving Selfridge, who only cameos in the final cut but clearly has a larger role in the future), and their plans for Pandora. I wouldn't be surprised if their eventual plan is to terraform the planet with atmosphere processors, like in Aliens.

 

In the final cut of A2 they really glossed over the concept of humans abandoning earth and making Pandora the new home base, which is quite a significant plot point!

 

So it makes complete sense taking that whole chunk of story and moving it to film 3, because the primary antagonist in A2 is Quaritch and his revenge tour, not RDA. Clearly Quaritch will have some type of transformation as each film progresses, then RDA will take over as "the big bad."

Quaritch is now in the middle of Jake’s arc, just much longer and with more redemption. I loved the scene where he crushed his human skull. This is definitely a space opera.

 

And exactly what James Cameron should be doing. This kind of broad storytelling with grand gestures plays to his strengths.

[Bayesian 1,067]

39 minutes ago, blondheim said:

And exactly what James Cameron should be doing. This kind of broad storytelling with grand gestures plays to his strengths.

I'm thrilled we're beginning to piece together the true scope of the Avatar franchise and understand/appreciate how impressive it will be once it's fully unveiled.

 

At the end of the day, these are just movies and the world will carry on with or without them. But within the scope of the art and science of mass audience moviemaking, Avatar represents Cameron redefining how to truly astonish and entertain a public that has long since grown bored with cheap-looking world-building or the physics-defying (and stakes-free) feats of costumed man-children -- and reminding that same public that we can allow a plot to unfurl at a more leisurely pace as long as we enjoy the ride along the way.

[Disco Stu 15,475]

I wish my mom loved me as much as you guys love Avatar

[Not Mr. Big 4,210]

1 hour ago, Disco Stu said:

I wish my mom loved me as much as you guys love Avatar

She does

[Mr. Who 708]

8 hours ago, crumbs said:

 

Yeah I assume they had a lot more setup at Bridgehead City about why the humans are back (probably involving Selfridge, who only cameos in the final cut but clearly has a larger role in the future), and their plans for Pandora. I wouldn't be surprised if their eventual plan is to terraform the planet with atmosphere processors, like in Aliens.

 

In the final cut of A2 they really glossed over the concept of humans abandoning earth and making Pandora the new home base, which is quite a significant plot point!

 

So it makes complete sense taking that whole chunk of story and moving it to film 3, because the primary antagonist in A2 is Quaritch and his revenge tour, not RDA. Clearly Quaritch will have some type of transformation as each film progresses, then RDA will take over as "the big bad."

I saw a behind the scenes pic of Michelle Yeoh's human character with Selfridge from A3 so he's definitively back in the third movie in a bigger role and I also think that we will see more of General Ardmore. David Thewlis and Oona Chaplin will be in the next movie as well... I wonder who they will play, hopefully na'vi.

[crumbs 12,958]

18 minutes ago, Mr. Who said:

I saw a behind the scenes pic of Michelle Yeoh's human character with Selfridge from A3 so he's definitively back in the third movie in a bigger role and I also think that we will see more of General Ardmore. David Thewlis and Oona Chaplin will be in the next movie as well... I wonder who they will play, hopefully na'vi.

 

Yep, definitely more to come from Selfridge and Yeoh.

 

 

Should we assume that Selfridge ends up back on Pandora, as I doubt the series will return to Earth until the 5th film.

 

18 minutes ago, Mr. Who said:

David Thewlis and Oona Chaplin will be in the next movie as well... I wonder who they will play, hopefully na'vi.

 

Great question about Thewlis, I absolutely love that guy as an actor. So bloody varied!

 

But it seems he'll be in the series until the very end:

 

Quote

“I should be clear, by the way, cause I know that a magazine in Britain has got me in Avatar 2, but I’m not in Avatar 2,” said Thewlis. “I’m going to be in Avatar 3, which was shot at the same time as Avatar 2, and the plan is that I will be in Avatar 4 and 5, as well. I just wanted to clear that up because somebody got that wrong recently.”

 

[Naïve Old Fart 7,933]

Agreed, @crumbs, about Thewlis.

Boarding school professor (and part-time werewolf); 60s gangster; very angry young man; camp medieval prince, not to mention whatever that was, in TOTAL ECLIPSE ().

He's a very talented actor, and one of my favourites.

[Mr. Who 708]

1 hour ago, crumbs said:

 

Yep, definitely more to come from Selfridge and Yeoh.

 

 

Should we assume that Selfridge ends up back on Pandora, as I doubt the series will return to Earth until the 5th film.

 

 

Great question about Thewlis, I absolutely love that guy as an actor. So bloody varied!

 

But it seems he'll be in the series until the very end:

 

 

Great picture! I’m looking forward to seeing Yeoh in A3. I think you’re right, Selfridge probably returns to Pandora and might be the head of operations for the RDA, along with General Ardmore. I think that Yeoh’s character is a scientist so she might interact with the scientist who was in the Tulkun hunt scene but that’s just me guessing lol.

 

Thewlis is a great actor for sure. I first saw him in HP but he can really  play any kind role. I read that Oona Chaplin plays a na’vi clan leader (maybe the ash people).

[leeallen01 2,036]

I see the RDA as a sort of Weyland-Yutani type company. Which is why the 'why are all the humans bad?' Idiotic question has always made me laugh. They are 1 company with a military protection force. Those who work for 'the company' are of course keen to strip the world of its resources as any cost, because that's what the company does. It's actually interesting how some in the company still didn't approve of the force tactics used on the Na'vi. Not just the scientists of course, but Selfridge himself was very relunctant to 'pull the trigger' as he put it.

[PokeDocMatt 52]

Did anyone else feel that there were scenes, especially in the third act, where the CGI noticeably stepped down in quality? I’m not sure if it was more the bad set my up in my rural, struggling theater or if they ran out of time to polish it. Could also have been that I didn’t see it in 3D…

 

I wish I would have waited to see it in my home theater. I think it would have been more of a spectacle. 

[crumbs 12,958]

43 minutes ago, PokeDocMatt said:

Did anyone else feel that there were scenes, especially in the third act, where the CGI noticeably stepped down in quality? I’m not sure if it was more the bad set my up in my rural, struggling theater or if they ran out of time to polish it. Could also have been that I didn’t see it in 3D…

 

I've heard from people who saw the 24FPS version that some of the animation during flying scenes looked a bit off.

[Bayesian 1,067]

I saw it again last night in something called RealD 3D (in a Cinemark RealXD theater) and some of the flying scenes in the opening minutes looked rather video game-y in a hyper-real kind of way, if that makes sense. There were also a handful of moments where things looked just a tiny bit off—for example, when one of the massive flying ships was landing and you see the wheels up close, when they hit the ground the tires don’t seem to bulge at all, which was weird since they should bulge a bit when a 2-megaton vehicle is settling onto the ground. At one moment in the third act, Quaritch jumps down from a higher deck and he doesn’t quite move in a finished way. 
 

But believe me when I say that these minor things are completely forgivable considering everything else in the movie looks so good. Like when the whale-creature pulls the harpoon line through the superstructure of one of the boats and you see the violence in the metal and glass being ripped apart… if ASMR was visual, that’s the kind of shit it would look like. 

[Jay 31,998]

I had the opposite experience.

 

When I re-watched Avatar 1 via blu last weekend, I thought that the visual effects were uneven; Really good most of the times, but really rough in spots, most egregiously when Jake goes to sleep in the netting, that looked so fake.

 

When I saw Avatar 2 in the theater though?  Flawless visuals, I thought!  Everything looked perfect the entire time.  The technology is really impressive

[crumbs 12,958]

4 hours ago, Bayesian said:

some of the flying scenes in the opening minutes looked rather video game-y in a hyper-real kind of way, if that makes sense.

 

I know exactly the scene you're referring to and had the exact same experience (the colourful scene at night flying around the forest, lit only by the moon and bioluminescence). RealD 3D as well. 

 

It might be the first instance of rapid movement HFR in the film and thus stands out in your brain more? 

 

I remember one of the early shots in the first Hobbit looked horrifically bad in HFR, one of the shots of old Bilbo walking around Bag End. It was like the film was running at double speed, because my eyes hadn't adjusted to the HFR. 

[Mr. Who 708]

The movie just passed 2 billion!

 

[leeallen01 2,036]

14 hours ago, crumbs said:

 

I know exactly the scene you're referring to and had the exact same experience (the colourful scene at night flying around the forest, lit only by the moon and bioluminescence). RealD 3D as well. 

 

It might be the first instance of rapid movement HFR in the film and thus stands out in your brain more? 

 

I remember one of the early shots in the first Hobbit looked horrifically bad in HFR, one of the shots of old Bilbo walking around Bag End. It was like the film was running at double speed, because my eyes hadn't adjusted to the HFR. 

 

 

I haven't seen Avatar 2 in HFR unfortunately. Nowhere near me was doing it for some reason, but I had the exact same experience with the Hobbit. It took time for my eyes to adjust, and Bilbo walking around Bag end was like someone had pressed fast forward, it was awful. So I would assume people had the same experience with HFR for Avatar, taking time to adjust. But I wouldn't know.

 

 

 

I thought all the CGI in The Way of Water was flawless. I didn't notice a single scene with potentially rushed effects or less than finished. Everything looked perfect. Sometimes scarily perfect. Like a "how the hell is this not real" kind of way.

 

I watched the first Avatar recently, and was blown away at the massive step forward that the Way of Water took. It's as big a leap as the first film was. Just the facial animation is stratospherically more advanced. And comparing the 1 or 2 water scenes in the first film with the water effects in the 2nd film... my god. This is truly what CGI artists are capable of. Any facial CG or environmental, like water effects that we got the last few years is absolute garbage in comparison, besides things like the Apes trilogy (by WETA Digital as well, of course). By far the best effects house in the world. 

 

If only the industry gave CGI artists enough creative time and money, look what they are capable of.

 

I can't imagine what works of art they will create with Avatar 3.

[Bayesian 1,067]

1 hour ago, leeallen01 said:

I watched the first Avatar recently, and was blown away at the massive step forward that the Way of Water took. It's as big a leap as the first film was.

That reminds me, early in TWOW, we see a flashback to the scene from the OG (sorry, Avatar) when Selfridge and his team are being led away, and the decrease in quality in the rendering from that flashback compared to TWOW is noticeable.

 

How do WETA do it, time and again?? Used to be that ILM was the top dog in the CGI business, but that's certainly no longer the case.

 

Actually, come to think of it, I think I should be a lot more conflicted by the state of this art, since I seriously dread the way AI is soon going to make it impossible to know if we can believe anything we see on a screen, yet I've got nothing but praise for TWOW. 

 

[leeallen01 2,036]

25 minutes ago, Bayesian said:

How do WETA do it, time and again?? Used to be that ILM was the top dog in the CGI business, but that's certainly no longer the case.

 

 

I think WETA took over as the top dog with LOTR. The real jumps in CG advancement went from LOTR to King Kong to District 9 to Avatar to Apes Trilogy to Avatar 2. 

 

I think WETA took over because of their speciality in facial CGI. ILM did do Davy Jones in POTC though, which still looks incredible.

[Mr. Who 708]

A2 has passed Infinity War.
https://variety.com/2023/film/news/avatar-2-fifth-highest-grossing-movie-infinity-war-1235503362/

[Not Mr. Big 4,210]

9 minutes ago, Mr. Who said:

A2 has passed Infinity War.
https://variety.com/2023/film/news/avatar-2-fifth-highest-grossing-movie-infinity-war-1235503362/

I guess it was finite after all

[Nick1Ø66 3,772]

5 hours ago, Mr. Who said:

A2 has passed Infinity War.
https://variety.com/2023/film/news/avatar-2-fifth-highest-grossing-movie-infinity-war-1235503362/

 

5 hours ago, Not Mr. Big said:

I guess it was finite after all

 

Adjusted for inflation, I believe it's still behind "Highlander 2: The Quickening".

[leeallen01 2,036]

Was anyone else confused when the Tulkun hunter Scoresby said he's never seen the Tulkun fight back? But we are shown and told that Payakan led a few Tulkun and Na'vi against a hunter ship. Either Scoresby was lying or he doesn't know that they once tried to fight back. Either way it's strange.

[May the Force be with You 2,031]

1 hour ago, leeallen01 said:

Was anyone else confused when the Tulkun hunter Scoresby said he's never seen the Tulkun fight back? But we are shown and told that Payakan led a few Tulkun and Na'vi against a hunter ship. Either Scoresby was lying or he doesn't know that they once tried to fight back. Either way it's strange.

Avatar 2 has many strong aspect, a coherent and original screenplay is saddly not one of them

[TolkienSS 217]

It needs another billion to surpass Titanic adjusted for inflation.

[Yavar Moradi 1,788]

3 hours ago, leeallen01 said:

Was anyone else confused when the Tulkun hunter Scoresby said he's never seen the Tulkun fight back? But we are shown and told that Payakan led a few Tulkun and Na'vi against a hunter ship. Either Scoresby was lying or he doesn't know that they once tried to fight back. Either way it's strange.

 

It's not at all, if you pay attention to what you wrote that I bolded.  

 

I get the impression that Payakan did that years earlier; heck it could even possibly be before the events of the first movie. There's no guarantee that Scoresby was even on Pandora at the time. But even if he was, there are a bunch of reasons why he might not know. I don't get the impression from Avatar 2 that all of the hunter ships are in close contact with each other or anything. They're competitors.

 

Yavar

[Yavar Moradi 1,788]

Just realized another possibility: maybe Scoresby even has heard of this one time the Tulkun fought back. He only mentions that he’s never seen them do it!

 

Either way, I don’t see the problem.

 

I more wonder why practically all of the water clan disappeared at the end, lol…

 

Yavar

[leeallen01 2,036]

3 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

 

It's not at all, if you pay attention to what you wrote that I bolded.  

 

I get the impression that Payakan did that years earlier; heck it could even possibly be before the events of the first movie. There's no guarantee that Scoresby was even on Pandora at the time. But even if he was, there are a bunch of reasons why he might not know. I don't get the impression from Avatar 2 that all of the hunter ships are in close contact with each other or anything. They're competitors.

 

Yavar

 

I was just curious because when I heard him say they never fight back, but saw them literally fight back, it made me think about the contradiction. But yeah there are many reasons why he might say that. 

 

Also another thing I've been thinking about is the timeframe that Way of Water takes place in. E.g. we see that Ronal wasn't pregnant or at least wasn't showing her pregnancy when the family arrives, but then she is clearly pregnant at the end of the film. Therefore we can assume (I don't know Na'vi pregnancy time) but they were perhaps with the Metkayina for a few months. So that must mean that Spider was with Quarritch for several months. Interesting to think about, because it feels like he's with him for a few days.

[Yavar Moradi 1,788]

I always had the impression that months passed in between Spider’s capture and his eventual rescue.

 

Yavar

[leeallen01 2,036]

10 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

I always had the impression that months passed in between Spider’s capture and his eventual rescue.

 

Yavar

 

I don't know why I didn't get that impression. We see him accepting his capture and 'go with it' so to speak. After that we are shown him at the Ikran nest, on the hunter ship and then in all the villages as they hunt for Jake. Of course it's implied that they searched many villages, so that tells you that it would've taken time. I guess I would've liked maybe 1 or 2 very small, personal scenes between Quaritch and Spider. Maybe one discussing his mother. Then it could convey Spider's anger of being held for so long, and also establish a deeper personal connection. It probably exists in an extended/deleted scene, because the deleted scenes of the first film are hugely important to Grace and Neytiri's characters e.g. the incident at Grace's school and the death of Neytiri's sister.

[Yavar Moradi 1,788]

Yeah I’d be very interested to see deleted scenes for this. Maybe one explains why the water Na’vi disappeared during the final confrontation. Maybe one shows whether Clement’s character survived. Etc.

 

But actually one main reason I understood it as months was the time amongst the water Na’vi. As you already pointed out Kate Winslet’s character goes from being not visibly pregnant to very visibly pregnant. But are you forgetting that whole montage of them learning the ways of their new community? That to me conveyed a fairly substantial passage of time.

 

Yavar

[leeallen01 2,036]

5 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

Yeah I’d be very interested to see deleted scenes for this. Maybe one explains why the water Na’vi disappeared during the final confrontation. Maybe one shows whether Clement’s character survived. Etc.

 

But actually one main reason I understood it as months was the time amongst the water Na’vi. As you already pointed out Kate Winslet’s character goes from being not visibly pregnant to very visibly pregnant. But are you forgetting that whole montage of them learning the ways of their new community? That to me conveyed a fairly substantial passage of time.

 

Yavar

 

 

Yeah, true. I guess it was just because I wanted more haha. I always want more with the Avatar films. It's just a world and story that I'm glad to lose myself in for as long as I can. 

 

I'm sure the deleted scenes will show the Metkayina retreated under heavy losses or something. Perhaps they were overwhelmed and didn't want to risk more harm. After all, they blamed Jake for their daughter, Tsireya being in danger and once they saw her leave the ship, they probably got the hell out of there. 

[Naïve Old Fart 7,933]

It's overtaken THE FORCE AWAKENS.

[JoeinAR 1,892]

Saw iit Saturday in Imax  It is simply stunning. Absolutely lovely.  James Cameron did not disappoint. 

 

 

 

[Bayesian 1,067]

On 28/1/2023 at 4:01 PM, leeallen01 said:

I'm sure the deleted scenes will show the Metkayina retreated under heavy losses or something. Perhaps they were overwhelmed and didn't want to risk more harm. After all, they blamed Jake for their daughter, Tsireya being in danger and once they saw her leave the ship, they probably got the hell out of there. 

It’s nearly a sure bet that it’ll be addressed in Avatar 3. The question is whether it was always intended to be addressed in that sequel (ie, before everyone started noticing the problem in TWOW), lol. 

[JoeinAR 1,892]

I love that connective tissue that exists between most of the James Cameron sci films. 

 

 

 

[Gabriel Bezerra 120]

On 27/01/2023 at 4:41 PM, Yavar Moradi said:

I more wonder why practically all of the water clan disappeared at the end, lol…

Headcanon is that they went after the rafts that escaped from the boat, 'cause those disappeared as well, the last we saw of them was a few getting smooshed by the boat.

[JoeinAR 1,892]

Avatar Ash & Fire

[Naïve Old Fart 7,933]

22 hours ago, JoeinAR said:

I love that connective tissue that exists between most of the James Cameron sci films. 

Er, yeah, it's green and looks like this:

[greenturnedblue 291]

Well Avatar 2 has the soldiers from Aliens, mechs like the robots in Terminator, water/ocean from Abyss, sinking ship from Titanic, and obviously plenty carried over from Avatar 1

[JoeinAR 1,892]

It has the young child falling through a hole.away from her mother. 

[Naïve Old Fart 7,933]

TWOW has taken 75% of AVATAR's box office total.

[leeallen01 2,036]

3 hours ago, JoeinAR said:

It has the young child falling through a hole.away from her mother. 

 

 

Didn't think of that haha. 

[blondheim 1,031]

It’s a reeeeeally solid Greatest Hits compilation. That’s not even a read. I loved it.

[leeallen01 2,036]

Oh lordy lordy I just saw it for the 6th time and eywa blessed me like a damn Toruk Makto. THE SCREEN WAS EMPTY! 

 

PRAISE AVIS! 

 

I saw it at the friday 3pm showing in 3D with Dolby Atmos and a X-Plus screen, which is basically the biggest screen you can get. I was comfortable, warm, alone, quiet, serene. It was a damn spiritual experience haha. All alone, not seeing a single human being for the entire film. I was so lost in it, even with it being the 6th bloody time I've seen it. Good jebus it was bliss. Like I had a damn 200ft screen with a Dolby Atmos sound system to myself in my own living room. 

 

I even got to sit all the way to the end of the end credits with the lights still down and enjoying the score without any passive aggressive employee sweeping the floor around me trying to get me to leave. No no no.

 

That was the best cinema experience I've ever had haha. But now I have to go see Titanic on a damn sunday because there's no other showings than weekends and evenings, so I'll be surrounded by morons again. Ah well lol

[Mr. Who 708]

Cameron vs Cameron at the box office lol. I’m seeing both titanic 3D and Avatar a 4th time in the coming month!