.

[KK 3,307]

Great vid Bloodboal! That was awesome and that music works a lot better than what ended up in film. I really enjoyed it so thanks for that! And I've got to say, the visuals don't look as poor as I remember them (aside from Azog), some of it actually looks rather impressive.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,714]

Very good takes on the final scenes BB. As you said the ending is such a tricky thing to get right because we don't know what might be missing either in footage or music from this section. I have to say that I preferred the version 2 for the first sight of Erebor from the Carrock with the Erebor theme making that dramatic and appropriate statement there but only a tad more than version 1 solution.

The whole Thorin/Bilbo huggy-feely moment seems to be missing from the OST altogether.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,714]

Yes I have always thought that the piece has a kind of abrupt opening. It could well mean that there was more music preceding it.

[gkgyver 1,645]

I'm positive Shore intended the music to stop before Smaug opens his eye, the moment of silence being a very good choice, avoiding the clicheed "music stops to black screen". Then Jackson probably decided at last minute he wanted total silence and replaced it with tracked music.

[Incanus 5,714]

I'm positive Shore intended the music to stop before Smaug opens his eye, the moment of silence being a very good choice, avoiding the clicheed "music stops to black screen". Then Jackson probably decided at last minute he wanted total silence and replaced it with tracked music.

I disagree on this one. BB's videos are quite a good indication of how that thematic statement would have played in my opinion. Jackson is kind of fond of cliches anyway although he in this case decided against using one in the end.

[KK 3,307]

Wow, I think that choral music was fantastic for the Eagles rescue and would take that over marginally revised TTT action bits! I think the second clip works better and I also don't think Jackson would have included so many additional Erebor scenes for the end.

And does anyone think that the slow-motion rescue of Thorin was actually there in the original sequence that Shore scored?

[gkgyver 1,645]

And does anyone think that the slow-motion rescue of Thorin was actually there in the original sequence that Shore scored?

Yes.

Also because his theme is played when the eagle picks him up (when you start the piece at the same point BB does).

And the fast drum part starts perfectly when the eagle rushes towards Bilbo.

Also, I think the first part of the Nature theme (for the moth appearing again) was, or is, the actual beginning of "A Good Omen", but was removed for the albums because Shore didn't like the repetition shortly after the statement in "Out Of The Frying-Pan". The cut statement is most likely a new recording too since it was obviously re-recorded when Jackson decided to go with the temp.

But you can still easily hear how it would play out in the film. When the moth appeary, Nature's Reclamation would play, and after the initial statement of four bars, it would segue right into A Good Omen. Not only because this is precisely the point where BB starts it in his video, but also because it starts with an F major chord, and Nature's Reclamation proceeds with F after four bars as well (well, dimished F# chord, but that one F# was probably changed to F naturel in the composition).

[Incanus 5,714]

Wow, I think that choral music was fantastic for the Eagles rescue and would take that over marginally revised TTT action bits! I think the second clip works better and I also don't think Jackson would have included so many additional Erebor scenes for the end.

And does anyone think that the slow-motion rescue of Thorin was actually there in the original sequence that Shore scored?

I just wish the revised Eagle rescue wasn't so close to that TTT material. The Nature's Reclamation is really the perfect thematic choice for the scene for both subtext and nostalgia factor I feel.

And does anyone think that the slow-motion rescue of Thorin was actually there in the original sequence that Shore scored?

Yes.

Also because his theme is played when the eagle picks him up.

And the fast drum part starts perfectly when the eagle rushes towards Bilbo.

Yeap. Exactly.

[gkgyver 1,645]

I think I will do an edit or something to see if my theory above works out.

[Brónach 1,302]

Wow, I think that choral music was fantastic for the Eagles rescue and would take that over marginally revised TTT action bits! I think the second clip works better and I also don't think Jackson would have included so many additional Erebor scenes for the end.

And does anyone think that the slow-motion rescue of Thorin was actually there in the original sequence that Shore scored?

I just wish the revised Eagle rescue wasn't so close to that TTT material. The Nature's Reclamation is really the perfect thematic choice for the scene for both subtext and nostalgia factor I feel.

I prefer the original cue all the way.

Anyone else like the brass interval synced with Gandalf falling on top of the eagle?

[Barnald 365]

I think Test 2, until 4:59 at least, is spot on.

Though I have to say this is the one instance I prefer the film composition (from the Eagles' entrance to arriving at the Carrock).

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Incanus 5,714]

He that addeth knowledge, addeth also pain. Official motto of JWFan.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Barnald 365]

Will you be doing the first minute or so of 'Edge of the Wild' next BloodBoal?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Barnald 365]

That makes sense.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Jay 37,352]

Wow, more great videos!

First of all I'm sure you're completely right for the 0:00-3:34 part and man, did Shore score it wonderfully - and I have no idea why PJ wanted it to be completely rescored! This music is perfect!

As for the rest, as you say it's quite hard to figure out, as it's likely that not only does the OST track have microedits, the film itself was likely edited in multiple places after this version was recorded, not to mention that as you said Shore likely scored this version to a pre-viz where the timings of things weren't fully fleshed out yet (especially all the special effects at the end).

I love that you presented two possibilites and it is quite hard to tell which could be right, if either is.

In Test 1, the emotions are spot on throughout, having warm music for the company looking out towards Erebor, getting a little mysterious as they see the thrush, high strings for their final discussion, then the music becoming more longing as we zoom into Erebor and of course the final dangerous music for the sight of Smaug.

But thematically it's a bit off, as I dunno why using Bilbo's Adventure for the company looking at Erebor is fitting, especially when the B section comes in right when the Thrush is seen - this is Thorin's momen, not Bilbos's.

Also, it is not that bizarre at all to suggest that PJ originally might have had a much longer flight for the thrush to be shown, not to mention a slightly longer buildup to the final shot. Though it's kinda weird that in this video, the final statement of Thorin's theme is of the Thrush flying past the dwarf statues..... which leads me to think that Test 1 is not exactly right!

In Test 2, I think it makes WAY more sense to have Bilbo's Adventure theme playing for the end of Bilbo and Thorin's conversation - this could easily be a way Shore scored it, though it's quite bizarre not to mention frustrating that he would remove whatever thematic material played over the start of their conversation for the album version.

And then the use of the Erebor theme right when they realize Erebor is within site is a good sync point too, especially since Thorin's theme now comes in as he is talking. As for the fact that you had to remove a lot of the thrush's flight to make the rest sync - well, I think it's certainly possible that Shore made a microedit at 5:09 (video timestamp), and that the rest of the music in the track after that is all music for the final scene of the film, with the thrush flight music microedited out of the OST.

In fact, I'd suggest a video like that - one that follows Test 2 from 0:00-5:09, and then Test 1 from 5:09-end. I think that could very well be the correct footage that the OST music goes to!


Oh, I almost forgot that you presented two different options for the Smaug's Theme / nostril / eyeball sync. I think the Test 1 version of that is far more likely, with Shore intending the music to climax right before the end credits, than the silence theory presented in Test 2. Just my opinion.

[Incanus 5,714]

Though I have to say this is the one instance I prefer the film composition (from the Eagles' entrance to arriving at the Carrock).

Not a big fan of the Nature's theme being used once again in full choral bombast (which kind of diminishes its impact in ROTK now, but also will make it feel a bit redundant, especially since I think it's highly likely Jackson will ask Shore to write yet again a similar statement for the arrival of the Eagles at the Battle Of Five Armies). I do really like the music starting after that, though (after they've escape Azog and his men, when we see the eagles flying with the sun in the background).

I would say that using the Nature's Reclamation in this scene is entirely thematically consistent although it might not develop entirely gracefully from its initial appearance in FotR to RotK now but I think this development would have been derailed at the Battle of Five Armies anyway (since the Nature's Reclamation seems like a foregone conclusion for the eagles in these films now). I rather like the OST version but to me the initial hint of Nature's Reclamation in Out of the Frying-Pan is left as an unfulfilled promise when Shore suddenly presents an entirely new melodic idea for the eagles in the rescue scene, be it as magnificent as it is. To me the scene almost begs for the appearance of Nature's Reclamation after that.

One important reason in using the Nature's Reclamation in the end must have been PJs need to tie this film nostalgically to the LotR trilogy, which he confessed was somewhat of a burden with the first film. But I do not doubt that there was a good deal of discussion how to approach this scene. Shore obviously tried to balance his quotations of the older material with the entirely new musical ideas and does so remarkably well throughout in his original visions for this score.

[Jay 37,352]

Well, Shore certainly could have intended to use Nature's Reclamation again for when the moth returns just before the eagles do, as gkgyver suggested.

It's honestly quite annoying Shore didn't present his original intended finale on the SE versions of the OST, as it's clear he intended from Bilbo's "home" speech straight through to the end credits to be scored wall-to-wall. It's fine he edited all that down for his OST presentation, as every composer has the right to do, but for the SE version it would have been nice to get it unedited, especially since it's very likely the CR set will have the revised compositions instead. And who knows if a future Rarities CD would have space to include the full unedited finale on it especially since 12 minutes of it is already on the OST.... bah.

To video games and EE BD menus and documentaries we go!

[Incanus 5,714]

I wonder will the eventual CRs of this stuff contain all the edits (or rather inserts) made for the film as quite a few of them sound really clunky. Most likely and hopefully Shore will follow artistic instinct and present his favoured version as he did with the LotR CRs (e.g. like with Flight to the Ford/Give Up the Halfling).

Also trying to form a neat thematic structure bridging The Hobbit and LotR is already difficult from continuity point of view. Material like Gandalf's themes or even Bilbo's themes already put a spanner in the works. Nature's Reclamation appearing early and in full force in these films is just one more theme to that mix.

[Jay 37,352]

I am actually not really bothered by Nature's Reclamation being used in full force in the Hobbit tril and then again in the LOTR tril. Nature is very cyclical and it makes sense that in the long standing war of good vs Sauron there would be moments when nature plays a part, largely through the giant eagles.

The bigger bummer for me is that Gandalf The Grey has a very fitting theme in The Hobbit tril that will just flat out disappear in the LOTR tril. I kind of get why Shore didn't think Gandalf The Grey needed a theme (he is, after all, in the grand scheme of things, only around for 2 hours of an 11 hour movie), but it is a bit curious that he decided to give him one now (except for that fact that of course Gandalf will be around and playing a large part in all 9 hours of this new saga).

Likewise Bilbo's theme not re-appearing in LOTR doesn't matter to me too much, because all of his scenes in LOTR are through his interactions with other characters so it makes sense to use their themes or the Shire theme when he appears in LOTR. Though obviously had The Hobbit been made first, his theme would certainly have been used in some in early scenes in FOTR.

Hey, there's always the chance PJ will make new versions of the LOTR films after he's done with The Hobbit! You know, fix that FOTR Gollum special effect, explain why Arwen is dying in ROTK, and maybe change some music around too Heck, they've rebuilt Hobbiton permanently - they should film the Scouring of the Shire there and put that in too!

[Incanus 5,714]

I am actually not really bothered by Nature's Reclamation being used in full force in the Hobbit tril and then again in the LOTR tril. Nature is very cyclical and it makes sense that in the long standing war of good vs Sauron there would be moments when nature plays a part, largely through the giant eagles.

Yes the Nature's Reclamation is perhaps easiest to explain. Its inclusion certainly doesn't bother me in the least.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,714]

To put it simply: I'm OK with this theme being used here. I just wish the rendition would have been a bit more low-key (and I'm not talking about Thor's brother, here).

Yes I agree on the impact point of view very much although I have to say it might have been somewhat difficult to write it low key when this is essentially the climax of the whole finale, which really needed the punch.

[crocodile 8,006]

Some really good work you're doing here, BB. Watched most of the videos a few days ago and it's interesting.

Karol

[Faleel 5,346]

Just wondering, does the statement of the Rohan theme in Forth Eorlingas lessen the impact of the statement in The Battle of the Pelennor fields?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Faleel 5,346]

The choral bit at the black gate, is still unique, and you know it boy!

The choral bit at the black gate, is just a throwaway bit, seeing as the main focus at that point, is on the ring (hence the statement of the theme at the end of the cue) its only purpose is as a "oh look the eagles, and LOOK! WHOO-HOO! FRODO'S ALMOST THERE! GO FRODO!" moment.

BTW the version in For Frodo was mostly Del Maestro, where the version in AUJ is women (I think) and is closer to the version on Last March of the Ents than it is to that version.

The whole Thorin/Bilbo huggy-feely moment seems to be missing from the OST altogether.

Just food for thought (I highly doubt what I am about to say is how the cue was intended) one of the documentary's has A Good Omen (the section around 3:26) going right into the Gondor Reborn theme! and it sounds rather natural, so if its an edit, it is a very very good one.

[Jay 37,352]

But thematically it's a bit off, as I dunno why using Bilbo's Adventure for the company looking at Erebor is fitting

I think that Bilbo's Adventure theme can be seen as a "Journey To Erebor" kind of theme (an idea reinforced by the fact that it appears in the track titled Erebor), so in my opinion that makes sense to have it here.

No, I don't think it functions as a Journey to Erebor theme.... As Doug stated as such on his blog that it's a Bilbo theme. And them seeing site of Erebor for the first time is definitely a moment that Shore would want to highlight with Thorin material and not Bilbo material, I'd say.

In fact, I'd suggest a video like that - one that follows Test 2 from 0:00-5:09, and then Test 1 from 5:09-end. I think that could very well be the correct footage that the OST music goes to!

So, just to get confirmation before I post the final video: up until 5'09, I'd use the second video, then at 5'09, I'd cut to the "Inside Erebor" card and the rest of the first video, right?

Well, the blank screen card could work, but probably more interesting would be the last bit of footage shown in the final film just before it cuts to inside (the thrush eating the snail, I believe)

It really seems to me like Shore microedited out the thrush's flight music from the OST (either that or when Shore first scored it PJ hadn't decided to show the thrush flying with the zoom-in to Erebor, etc yet)

[Faleel 5,346]

Gkgyvers idea does not work (or atleast if I understood correctly)

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Barnald 365]

I got first billing!

Seriously though, great work from start to finish.

[Incanus 5,714]

Heheee our own fan credits! Great!

More thoughts on all of this later!

[Jay 37,352]

Haha, I haven't heard the "end credits" yet, but I saw them, and that's cool

One thing, is I would have used the end of the thrush / snail scene instead of a blank screen after the scene change at 5:09

[Faleel 5,346]

Where is the soft glow around the credit text!?

Here be my version of the scene: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BxQSwI5aPja9MF9LRjg2azJaRDg/edit?usp=sharing

and here is my version of The Adventure Begins: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BxQSwI5aPja9RkVpd1VqUTE2T28/edit?usp=sharing

[KK 3,307]

Was that "the smooth transition to the Gondor Reborn theme" you were talking about? Because that wasn't very smooth at all.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Just wondering, does the statement of the Rohan theme in Forth Eorlingas lessen the impact of the statement in The Battle of the Pelennor fields?

No, it's not the same and you know it boy. The statement heard during the Pelennor Fields not only is bigger, but the orchestration is also quite different: for example, it has the hardinger (or fiddle, or whatever), which the Forth Eorlingas cue doesn't have and which gives it a different flavour. Both cues are different, and the statement heard in the Pelennor Fields clearly feels like the "climax of the theme". In the case of the Reclamation of Nature, both cues have a choral statement of that theme and they present a lot of similarities. Also: before The Hobbit, the statement at the Black Gate really felt like "the climax of the theme". It doesn't anymore. But I guess that's just me who feels that way...

The climax of Nature is both the Destruction of Isengard and Battle Of Pelennor Fields, both of which are way grander explorations of the theme than the eagle rescue in AUJ.

[Faleel 5,346]

Was that "the smooth transition to the Gondor Reborn theme" you were talking about? Because that wasn't very smooth at all.

No it is not, its a rough approximation of that transition, using the OST and a Blu-ray rip with instruments missing and totally different mix.

[KK 3,307]

Oh ok. I thought you ripped that off one of the production videos.

[Shoreboy 6]

Just thought I'd come out of lurkerdom to thank BloodBoal and everyone for this thread, it's been a great one to watch and I love all the effort that's gone into the videos. What a fantastic score, shame about the way it ended up in the film!

[Faleel 5,346]

Oh ok. I thought you ripped that off one of the production videos.

Does this sound any smoother? its still not the ripped file, but its closer to the version in that doc.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BxQSwI5aPja9YzM3TGZtSnBBeE0/edit?usp=sharing

[Jay 37,352]

Watched the video with sound Blood, very nice

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,352]

Awesome, thanks for making that!

I am by no means 100% convinced that that is the exact footage Shore scored to (he likely just scored to a giant pre-viz that ended up differing wildly from the final film footage), but I think it's the best we have for now, unless Doug ever tells us otherwise what Shore scored to

Bravo, Bloodboal!

I can't wait for the next round when the EE comes out!

[BloodBoal 7,538]