The Lord of the Rings Score Restored (Unused Howard Shore Music Restored To Picture)

[Jay 37,267]

I'm not sure I understand your question. We have the original versions via the OST album, rarities album, etc.  What is the confusing part?

[WampaRat 1,105]

16 minutes ago, Jay said:

I'm not sure I understand your question. We have the original versions via the OST album, rarities album, etc.  What is the confusing part?

Sorry. That makes sense. So if it’s on the OST, it’s Shores original version. The Complete recordings of Fellowship is a straight copy of the music as heard in film (complete with tracked cues ala Ultimate Edition of Phantom Menace.)

 

For music found on the Appendices or video games, how do we know where their original placement was in the film was?

 

(sorry, I’m probably not making much sense still)

[Jay 37,267]

Well,

 

The Rarities track "Prologue / One Ring To Rule Them All (Alternate Version)" is obviously Shore's original version of the prologue, and the CR track "Prologue: One Ring To Rule Them All" is obviously the later re-write

 

The music at the start of OST track "A Shadow of the Past" is obviously Shore's original version of Gandalf smoking and pondering on the ring, as you can see via Faleel's video in this thread, and the CR track "Keep It Secret, Keep It Safe" contains PJ's Parth Galen tracking instead.

 

The music heard in the costume featurette is clearly Shore's original version of Gandalf talking about Sauron covering the lands in darkness, as you can see via Faleel's video in this thread, and the CR track "A Conspiracy Unmasked" contains PJ's Parth Galen tracking instead.

 

The Rarities track "The Argonath (Alternate Version)" is obviously Shore's original version of the Argonath scene, and the CR track "The Fighting Uruk-Hai" is obviously the later re-write.  

 

There's really no ambiguity with any of these.

 

In general, a random piece of music heard in a video game or DVD featurette can be hard to place sometimes, for certain!  However, it often can be fairly easy, due to the way Shore wrote these scores to begin with.  The way he gives different locations their own instrumentation, for example, is often a huge clue to to get you started placing it. 

 

There might be some random bits of music that still haven't been definitively identified, I dunno, but when it comes to these scenes that have the History of the Ring in the final cut, the original versions are all heard on albums not not mystery video game or DVD music.... except the costume featurette music, and I think Faleel's video makes a pretty convincing case what scene that was intended for.  There's really no other scene in the film that would make sense for it.

[WampaRat 1,105]

Thanks,

 

I really love that “footsteps of doom” moment in the rejected conspiracy unmasked cue. Really frightening.

[Jay 37,267]

Yea!  Nice and creepy!

[Faleel 5,326]

Don't forget Jim Ware just comes in and tells us every once and a while.

 

But also, a lot of times, the unreleased bits in DVD menus/doc underscore/games, have parts of what is already released in them, and seamlessly flow into them, so are obviously not just edited together.

[Jay 37,267]

2 minutes ago, Roll the Bones said:

Don't forget Jim Ware just comes in and tells us every once and a while.

 

I almost said that too

[MedigoScan 324]

All that direct tracking from the movie and we still dont have the Khazad-dum sequence with the vocals at the right loudness.

[Jay 37,267]

What's wrong with the vocals on the OST album? 

[MedigoScan 324]

Looking back its just the moment here thats mixed louder I guess. 

 

https://youtu.be/aGj1iQvhlXE?t=14

 

 

[Jay 37,267]

I always thought the mix on the CR was the same as the film mix.  When I get around to comparing everything closely I'll make note of the vocals there

[Faleel 5,326]

Nah, the Film has louder choir, the CR is always juuuuust a bit too quiet.

[Jay 37,267]

I wonder how in the world that happened?

[Bofur01 245]

And the moment when the Nazgûl first leave Minas Morgul, the choir for that section in the film is so loud compared to the CR

[Jay 37,267]

Interesting!  I'll to examine all these mixing differences as I got through the film!

[Doug Adams 494]

I have a theory that the softer choir mixes in the CR are the result of the 5.1 surround mix being directly baked down to the stereo mix. With the chorus primarily in the rear speakers in the DVD mix, they lost a lot of presence in the stereo. I'm not speculating on whether or not this was a choice or an oversight. Well ... I *am* speculating, but I'm not writing it here!   

[Jay 37,267]

Ooh, that makes sense. 

[WampaRat 1,105]

8 hours ago, Jay said:

The reason you perceive the Ring theme as not being very varied throughout FOTR is because it was originally a one-off idea in a single cue that PJ tracked into two other scenes in place of what Shore wrote for them, and also had him re-record the same arrangement yet again for the replacement Prologue cue in place of that original intention. 

 

So you literally hear the same arrangement four times in the film (and on the CR release), three of which are the same recording. 

 

The replacement Argonath cue is only the second arrangement Shore had ever made of the theme before the theatrical release, but then he got to make some new arrangements for the EE cues, and the subsequent films. 

 

For more information, see here. 

This still boggles my mind.

The fact that the History of the Ring theme, this all-encompassing identity for the entire trilogy, was due to PJs tracking of “Parth Galen” all over the place. It’s like if The Force/Ben’s theme was the result of Lucas liking a little snippet in “Tales of a Jedi Knight” or something and pasted it all over the film!
 

I wonder what would Shore have used instead to represent the ring? Perhaps the swelling/growing motif heard at the very beginning of “The Prophecy”.

Its a testament to Shores skill and ability to collaborate that he was able to adapt that little whisp of a theme from Parth Galen so organically into the body of the rest of the scores. Doug Adam’s book is so detailed on how perfectly suited it is to represent “such a little thing”. I’m surprised he doesn’t make any mention of its actual genesis. Nor does he call out the tracked in bits in his notes for Fellowship. Perhaps it would’ve been taboo? 

[Faleel 5,326]

The Seduction of the Ring, I guess.

 

Along with the Sauron/Evil, and Smeagol themes

 

 

A lot of the in the making stuff didn't make it out of the additional online notes that Doug has buried now.

[Chen G. 3,942]

4 hours ago, WampaRat said:

The fact that the History of the Ring theme, this all-encompassing identity for the entire trilogy, was due to PJs tracking of “Parth Galen” all over the place. It’s like if The Force/Ben’s theme was the result of Lucas liking a little snippet in “Tales of a Jedi Knight” or something and pasted it all over the film!

 

I don't think that's quite true. Fragments of that theme already crop-up in "The Prophecy" and certainly its halfstep-up-and-back-down shape is one of the basic building blocks of the score, engendering many other themes.

 

It may not have been intended as a cornerstone of the scores that it ended-up being, but that's a different story.

[crocodile 7,978]

I always thought of the Fellowship theme as the cornerstone of the scores. And the Shire material to some extent. 

 

Karol

[WampaRat 1,105]

7 hours ago, Chen G. said:

It may not have been intended as a cornerstone of the scores that it ended-up being, but that's a different story.

I suppose it would have been used more like one of his other ring-quest motifs ala “The Journey There” or “Dangerous Passes” I imagine.

[TolkienSS 405]

7 hours ago, Chen G. said:

 

I don't think that's quite true. Fragments of that theme already crop-up in "The Prophecy" and certainly its halfstep-up-and-back-down shape is one of the basic building blocks of the score, engendering many other themes.

 

It may not have been intended as a cornerstone of the scores that it ended-up being, but that's a different story.

 

So, to summarize this info: Shore originally played the theme at Parth Galen, and a precursor in the beginning of The Prophecy. One in minor, one in major.

Shore plays it when Frodo walks through the ruins of old, and plays it in the prologue, for narration about the old world and, I assume, the forging of the rings.

 

So, since Shore used this theme and harmony only twice originally, both regarding the old Middle-Earth, and now uses it to open his Rings Of Power theme, can we not assume Shore indeed connects it intentionally to both the Ring theme and the Prophecy?

[Chen G. 3,942]

4 hours ago, crocodile said:

I always thought of the Fellowship theme as the cornerstone of the scores. And the Shire material to some extent. 

The theme associated with the Shire, absolutely; especially within the context of the series as a whole. The Fellowship? Eh. It’s heroic contour makes us hear it as the “main theme” in the Old Hollywood style. But it’s not.

 

The Middle Earth scores simply don’t function that way: you’d be hard-pressed to take any one theme and call it the “main theme.” Just like The Ring cycle doesn’t have any single main theme, nor do the individual entries have defining themes.

 

These works are not about a single body of music nor two warring musical “factions.” They’re about setting up several musical “worlds” and developing them into one another.

[Jay 37,267]

15 hours ago, WampaRat said:

This still boggles my mind.

 

It's easily the most shocking film music related information I've ever discovered in my lifetime of loving and studying film music

 

15 hours ago, WampaRat said:

The fact that the History of the Ring theme, this all-encompassing identity for the entire trilogy, was due to PJs tracking of “Parth Galen” all over the place. It’s like if The Force/Ben’s theme was the result of Lucas liking a little snippet in “Tales of a Jedi Knight” or something and pasted it all over the film!

 

Haha, I get what you mean, but at least in this case, Shore at least wrote 3 different arrangements of the theme before PJ started tracking it.  I forgot that it actually plays twice in the Parth Galen track (once when Frodo is walking around the ruins of that old statue, and once when he heads towards that tower in the ring world, which was dialed out of the final film), in addition to the Argonath re-write.

 

But here's something to really cook your noodle: What if Shore did not compose this melody intending to even be associated with the ring at all?  The ring, afterall, has nothing to do with the Argonath statues, the fallen statue Frodo walks by, or the crumbled tower he approaches in the ring world.

 

 

15 hours ago, WampaRat said:

I wonder what would Shore have used instead to represent the ring?

 

Don't forget, Shore already has a theme associated with the ring in the first score - the Seduction of the Ring theme.  It's used when Frodo first sets out of Bag End and the camera shows it on a necklace around his neck, and when the ring temps Aragorn at the end of the film.  And Shore tried to use it more in TTT, but PJ replaced it with those Ring sound effects.

 

 

In general, I think Shore didn't think the ring as an object needed its own theme, what made more sense was various themes that represent how the ring affects those around it.  So the Seduction theme is used when people are tempted by its power, or at least setting up to potentially be.  Gollum's themes are already themes that represent what the ring turned Gollum into, not what he was like before it.  The Evil of the Ring / Sauron theme represents the power Sauron could wield if he got the ring back.  Etc.

 

15 hours ago, WampaRat said:

Its a testament to Shores skill and ability to collaborate that he was able to adapt that little whisp of a theme from Parth Galen so organically into the body of the rest of the scores.

 

Yes!  He uses this melody as a theme for the ring so eloquently in the followup movies (and FOTR EE cues) you'd never, ever guess it wasn't originally intended to be as such.

 

15 hours ago, WampaRat said:

Doug Adam’s book is so detailed on how perfectly suited it is to represent “such a little thing”. I’m surprised he doesn’t make any mention of its actual genesis. Nor does he call out the tracked in bits in his notes for Fellowship. Perhaps it would’ve been taboo? 

 

Yea, I think the idea of the book is to just discuss the music as presented on the CRs and pretend it was exactly what everyone intended, and leave the nuts and bolts of the film making process and how the director can change what the composer wanted and we all have to live with it, out of the analysis.

[JNHFan2000 2,942]

Don't want to be a rude or anything but....

Could we maybe keep this thread about Bear's music. I've been reading about Shore's music for 3 or 4 days. There's enough other threads for that.

[Chen G. 3,942]

1 hour ago, Jay said:

But here's something to really cook your noodle: What if Shore did not compose this melody intending to even be associated with the ring at all?

 

Wouldn't shock me. By comparison, the first sketch of the Ring was for the Norn scene and its scored with, well, the Ride of the Valkyries...

 

Early on, these things are often in a state of flux.

[WampaRat 1,105]

19 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

It's easily the most shocking film music related information I've ever discovered in my lifetime of loving and studying film music

 

 

Haha, I get what you mean, but at least in this case, Shore at least wrote 3 different arrangements of the theme before PJ started tracking it.  I forgot that it actually plays twice in the Parth Galen track (once when Frodo is walking around the ruins of that old statue, and once when he heads towards that tower in the ring world, which was dialed out of the final film), in addition to the Argonath re-write.

 

But here's something to really cook your noodle: What if Shore did not compose this melody intending to even be associated with the ring at all?  The ring, afterall, has nothing to do with the Argonath statues, the fallen statue Frodo walks by, or the crumbled tower he approaches in the ring world.

 

 

 

Don't forget, Shore already has a theme associated with the ring in the first score - the Seduction of the Ring theme.  It's used when Frodo first sets out of Bag End and the camera shows it on a necklace around his neck, and when the ring temps Aragorn at the end of the film.  And Shore tried to use it more in TTT, but PJ replaced it with those Ring sound effects.

 

 

In general, I think Shore didn't think the ring as an object needed its own theme, what made more sense was various themes that represent how the ring affects those around it.  So the Seduction theme is used when people are tempted by its power, or at least setting up to potentially be.  Gollum's themes are already themes that represent what the ring turned Gollum into, not what he was like before it.  The Evil of the Ring / Sauron theme represents the power Sauron could wield if he got the ring back.  Etc.

 

 

Yes!  He uses this melody as a theme for the ring so eloquently in the followup movies (and FOTR EE cues) you'd never, ever guess it wasn't originally intended to be as such.

 

 

Yea, I think the idea of the book is to just discuss the music as presented on the CRs and pretend it was exactly what everyone intended, and leave the nuts and bolts of the film making process and how the director can change what the composer wanted and we all have to live with it, out of the analysis.

I’ll respond here to help the other thread be more on topic

 

Yep! Consider my noodle cooked.

It’s just ingenious how Shore was able to reverse engineer it.

“Crap…PJ has really thrown a wrench into my carefully constructed thematic tapestry…I’ll call it the…uh…HISTORY OF THE RING theme. Yeah. That’ll work. I’m sure I can find a use for it…” 😄

 

In regards to the Adam’s LOTR book not mentioning the tracking, that theory makes sense.
In his musical commentary with theonering.net peeps, he mentions how his Hobbit book reflects “Shores original intentions” for cues (ie-no tracking!) But I imagine we would need complete recordings of those scores to follow along better with the book. (Unless he only wrote about the cues already released on the SE editions 😔) But there may be hope …some day…

[Faleel 5,326]

There is that EE commentary clip of Shore calling it [HotR] a Gondorian theme....

 

Does my edit of the Prophecy have that proto-Ring moment line up with the 9 onscreen?

[Jay 37,267]

12 hours ago, Chen G. said:

I don't think that's quite true. Fragments of that theme already crop-up in "The Prophecy"

 

I think that since the Prophecy is the cue for the prologue sequence, which covers the events of the Second Age, and then the 3 locations Shore wrote the melody into FOTR directly are the Argonath statues, and then the crumbled statue and Seat of Seeing at Amon Hen - all of which are from the Second Age - it could be as simple as a theme Shore created for Second Age's grandeur or something like that.  So it makes perfect sense to appear in fragmented form in The Prophecy and then get a full statement when Frodo is among Second Age ruins.  And conveniently, the One Ring was created in the Second Age as well, so the theme was more easily turned into a Ring Theme than a different melody might have been.

 

 

16 minutes ago, Roll the Bones said:

There is that EE commentary clip of Shore calling it [HotR] a Gondorian theme....

 

I thought we decided that Shore's commentary must have been recorded when the original version of the cue was synced to picture, instead of the re-written cue?

 

[TolkienSS 405]

I think it's rather obvious. 

 

The precursor to the Ring theme in The Prophecy is Lydian (#4th -> 5th)

 

The Anduril theme is Lydian (G F# D E over C major)

 

The History Of The Ring theme is minor, but still #4 -> 5th

 

The Rings of Power theme is Lydian (#4th -> 5th) AND then minor (#4th -> 5th)

 

The Gondor Reborn theme (Anduril theme developed) is I think also in Lydian.

 

It's obvious that Shore wants to associate the brightness of the Lydian mode with the splendor of the Second Age.

[Faleel 5,326]

2 hours ago, Jay said:

 

 

 

I thought we decided that Shore's commentary must have been recorded when the original version of the cue was synced to picture, instead of the re-written cue?

 

Well if the prophecy statement syncs up to the 9 Men, and the Parth Galen statement are for Gondorian Ruins, and the Argonath Re-Write was also for Gondorian Ruins....

And of course, the second occurrence of the proto-Ring theme appears for Gollum grabbing the Ring.....

 

 

...from the Anduin, which is the same River the Argonath are in! ;(

[Doug Adams 494]

3 hours ago, Jay said:

 

I think that since the Prophecy is the cue for the prologue sequence, which covers the events of the Second Age, and then the 3 locations Shore wrote the melody into FOTR directly are the Argonath statues, and then the crumbled statue and Seat of Seeing at Amon Hen - all of which are from the Second Age - it could be as simple as a theme Shore created for Second Age's grandeur or something like that.  So it makes perfect sense to appear in fragmented form in The Prophecy and then get a full statement when Frodo is among Second Age ruins.  And conveniently, the One Ring was created in the Second Age as well, so the theme was more easily turned into a Ring Theme than a different melody might have been.

 

 

 

I thought we decided that Shore's commentary must have been recorded when the original version of the cue was synced to picture, instead of the re-written cue?

 

Jay is correct.

[WampaRat 1,105]

[Chen G. 3,942]

8 hours ago, TolkienSS said:

The Anduril theme is Lydian (G F# D E over C major)

 

The History Of The Ring theme is minor, but still #4 -> 5th

 

The Rings of Power theme is Lydian (#4th -> 5th) AND then minor (#4th -> 5th)

 

The Gondor Reborn theme (Anduril theme developed) is I think also in Lydian.

 

 

Goes to show how silly these names are.

 

Its why I prefer to talk in terms of associations than in terms of designations.

[Alan 689]

All this is really making it clear to me that we need a release that presents the music as Shore originally intended.

 

As much as I have always loved and appreciated the Complete Recordings, I really hope these scores get another release.

[Monoverantus 363]

This has been a very interesting thread, but since no-one else has mentioned it, I want to add that just because a composition was made before the final version, doesn't necessariloy mean it was the original composition. The Annotated Score details several occasions where Shore made a composition that was replaced for the Theatrical Cut and then either re-inserted for the Extended Edition or never was recorded at all.

On 19/09/2022 at 4:58 AM, WampaRat said:

Doug Adam’s book is so detailed on how perfectly suited it is to represent “such a little thing”. I’m surprised he doesn’t make any mention of its actual genesis. Nor does he call out the tracked in bits in his notes for Fellowship. Perhaps it would’ve been taboo? 

This is the appeal of The Annotated Score to me, since the "Unused Concepts" and "In The Making" segments were removed from the book. 

12 hours ago, TolkienSS said:

I think it's rather obvious. 

 

The precursor to the Ring theme in The Prophecy is Lydian (#4th -> 5th)

 

The Anduril theme is Lydian (G F# D E over C major)

 

The History Of The Ring theme is minor, but still #4 -> 5th

 

The Rings of Power theme is Lydian (#4th -> 5th) AND then minor (#4th -> 5th)

 

The Gondor Reborn theme (Anduril theme developed) is I think also in Lydian.

 

It's obvious that Shore wants to associate the brightness of the Lydian mode with the splendor of the Second Age.

I don't mind this theory, but feel that I ought to contest this, since I, too, have had theories about Shore's use of modes debunked.

The list leaves out several Lydian themes not connected to the Second Age (all of Éowyn's themes, Tauriel and Kili, arguably The Dark Places of the World), and Gondor Reborn is in E minor. But most importantly, Doug has already tied a compositional concept to the Second Age: the augmented second, as seen in the Lothlórien and Sauron themes. Of course, I can't speak for Shore's original intentions.

Jaime Altozano had a similar theory that the Dorian mode represented Mankind, since it's used in both The Rohan Fanfare and The Realm of Gondor (and related music). I thought this was very credible, but when I asked Doug about it on the TheOneRing LotR score streams, he denied that it was Shore's intent. I'll see if I find the quote.

[Chen G. 3,942]

16 minutes ago, Monoverantus said:

Jaime Altozano had a similar theory that the Dorian mode represented Mankind, since it's used in both The Rohan Fanfare and The Realm of Gondor (and related music

 

I dunno about the Dorian mode specifically, but certainly when I think the music of mankind in these scores, I certainly think modal.

[WampaRat 1,105]

2 hours ago, Monoverantus said:

This is the appeal of The Annotated Score to me, since the "Unused Concepts" and "In The Making" segments were removed from the book. 

Woah. These were going to be in the book? But they took them out?😩

 

[Monoverantus 363]

31 minutes ago, WampaRat said:

Woah. These were going to be in the book? But they took them out?😩

 

I don't know about that. I'm just saying that The Annotated Scores aren't redundant because the book fleshed them out, they have some info you can't find in the book.

[WampaRat 1,105]

Sweet. I’ll need to go back and re-read those. I ignorantly thought those were just slimmed down versions of the Books contents. But it appears there’s some nuggets that aren’t in there. it’s been forever since I’ve looked at those.

[WampaRat 1,105]

Anyone happen to have an “editing guide” for the Fellowship CRs (where/when to insert the OST takes or other useful bits…)?

[Faleel 5,326]

I was working on a spreadsheet, but I never finished it.

[Jay 37,267]

On 15/09/2022 at 1:52 PM, Jay said:

I'm working on a big informational resource like that

 

[WampaRat 1,105]

Looking forward to it. Those score restore videos have been truly enlightening. Thanks for those!

 

That being said, the moments where the score was cut in these films to allow for silence/sound I still find very effective. (Even though the “seduction of the ring” theme becomes a casualty later on.) But it’s also nice to have the option to listen to what was intended on the TT and RoTK CRs.

[Faleel 5,326]

Yeah, I feel if there is a problem it's usually just that the actual edit is the problem, not the music being dropped.

[TolkienSS 405]

Has anyone made a complete digital Soundtrack album with all the bits edited out in the films restored?

Plus alternates?

 

I can't do that myself, if anyone has something like that, would anyone share it?