"A Conspiracy Unmasked" or Analyzing the Fellowship of the Ring CR

[crocodile 8,012]

Oh no, the seventh topic!

Karol

[Faleel 5,348]

The bars are dialled out in the TE and partially replaced by new material in the EE.

I would assume then it goes somewhere around 3:00?

Jim, those Brass notes that replaced that section in A Conspiracy Unmasked, where did they come from? The Sword That Was Broken?

And where approximately would that held note go in context of my rough cut of the original Shortcut to Mushrooms posted above?

Not sure on the first question (I'll check)....

To be clear, its the bit at 0:49 of A Conspiracy Unmasked on the CR.

It's from A Conspiracy Unmasked! There's an edit at 0:52 trimming about five seconds of material.

I would assume this goes after the Descending Third bit I found in the DVD menu's?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

So why do you disrespect Howard Shore, Faleel?

[Faleel 5,348]

What makes you think I disrespect him?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Shore put a lot of work into the creation of the CR for FOTR and the other two.

And you treat his work like there is something wrong with his approach.

Leading to the misguided idea that the CR is a mess.

[Faleel 5,348]

Why should we "treat" Shore any different than we "treat" Williams?

And creating a release labeled complete, when there is still music IN THE FILM that is NOT on that said release, is the wrong approach IMO.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Because the LOTR scores were crafted very differently.

There isnt one single "correct" version of the score, as there is with most of JW's work.

These LOTR scores, and the Hobbit ones go though months of continuous revisions. Because Shore is involved with the project longer then usual, and because of the way PJ works.

The CR, for better or worse is the version of the score Shore is happy with. Even if that includes tracked versions of the History Of The Ring (which was probably a theme he came up with very late in the game)

And creating a release labeled complete, when there is still music IN THE FILM that is NOT on that said release, is the wrong approach IMO.

I agree that the name is misleading, but we knew that from the start when it was revealed the release would conform for the most part to the extended cuts of the film.

[Faleel 5,348]

The CR, for better or worse is the version of the score Shore is happy with.

Then why do the LOTR symphony and the LOTR Live to Projection have music that was cut/microedited/dialed out of the CR? Did Shore change his mind?

And don't get me wrong, in the film, all of the choices work wonders (Dropped Nazgul theme for the trashing of the bedrooms at the Prancing Pony, the Ring theme statements etc.), but some do not work musically or are edited a bit clumsily, for examples: the crossfade from the Pity of Gollum to the History of the Ring in A Conspiracy Unmasked, the cutting out of the first phrase of the Lothlorien theme, the crossfade at 0:50 of A Conspiracy Unmasked...

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Possibly. Remember, those are different cuts of the films, and the live performance serves a different purpose then the CR's. Since it marries his music with a showing of the films it was written for

You cant really use those as evidence that the CR's are rubbish.

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

Fal didn't say the CRs are rubbish. He said they're messy... which they are. And I don't see how you can possibly say that "there's a single 'correct' version" of any score.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Shore worked on those scores for months and years, an ever evolving process. Much like tolkiens own book. But Shore also had to contend with a director's wishes and ever changing cuts. Its not like a normal score where the composer comes in during post production and takes 4 to 8 weeks to do the score.

The version that ended up in the film was a compromise, as was the EE, as was the CR, and the live performance version.

What would you say is the definitive version of FOTR that is exactly as Shore would have wanted it?

[crocodile 8,012]

For once, the live to projection concerts are supposed to work as... concerts. It's the music that's the main attraction, so it should flow well. It's not necessary for this music to be there, mind you. The Return of the King would have been much worse if it had all this music in, the way they perform it live. It was great to hear it, but the flooded the picture, there was no room for it to breathe. Too much music hurts the actual film.

My point is, Fal, the "as intended" is a slippery subject. Don Davis uses his original finale in The Matrix concerts (instead of Rage Against The Machine one). And it was never supposed to be there, he wrote it in case they couldn't cut a deal to use this song. But in the context of concert setting, ending the performance on rock song collection just doesn't work.

Karol

[Faleel 5,348]

For once, the live to projection concerts are supposed to work as... concerts. It's the music that's the main attraction, so it should flow well. It's not necessary for this music to be there, mind you. The Return of the King would have been much worse if it had all this music in, the way they perform it live. It was great to hear it, but the flooded the picture, there was no room for it to breathe. Too much music hurts the actual film.

Karol

I totally agree. see here:

Unsolved Mysteries

Where does the Nazgul theme at 2:25 of "At The Sign of the Prancing Pony" go?

More or less where it's positioned on the album, although bars have been trimmed before and after. It would have underscored the Nazgul entering the Prancing Pony and trashing the decoy room.

Ah.

Glad it was cut from the film!

[gkgyver 1,645]

Fal didn't say the CRs are rubbish. He said they're messy... which they are. And I don't see how you can possibly say that "there's a single 'correct' version" of any score.

There is a correct version of any score, and that is putting the complete recording of every cue that made it into the film on CD. TTT and RotK do that mostly, but FotR doesn't, which kind of contradicts the label "Complete Recordings". So, there is nothing wrong with calling that messy.

Shore worked on those scores for months and years, an ever evolving process. Much like tolkiens own book. But Shore also had to contend with a director's wishes and ever changing cuts. Its not like a normal score where the composer comes in during post production and takes 4 to 8 weeks to do the score.

The version that ended up in the film was a compromise, as was the EE, as was the CR, and the live performance version.

What would you say is the definitive version of FOTR that is exactly as Shore would have wanted it?

You're right on the films and the concerts, but not the CRs. The Complete Recordings clearly advertise complete recordings, and you'd expect the film cues in COMPLETE RECORDED form. Which they are not.

If you're not going to go all the way, FotR should have been called "The Fellowship of the Ring - The Compromise", and not "The Fellowship of the Ring - The Complete Recordings".

[Faleel 5,348]

Section comparing the Live Symphony with the OST/CR added to the main post.

[Incanus 5,714]

Fal didn't say the CRs are rubbish. He said they're messy... which they are. And I don't see how you can possibly say that "there's a single 'correct' version" of any score.

There is a correct version of any score, and that is putting the complete recording of every cue that made it into the film on CD. TTT and RotK do that mostly, but FotR doesn't, which kind of contradicts the label "Complete Recordings". So, there is nothing wrong with calling that messy.

Shore worked on those scores for months and years, an ever evolving process. Much like tolkiens own book. But Shore also had to contend with a director's wishes and ever changing cuts. Its not like a normal score where the composer comes in during post production and takes 4 to 8 weeks to do the score.

The version that ended up in the film was a compromise, as was the EE, as was the CR, and the live performance version.

What would you say is the definitive version of FOTR that is exactly as Shore would have wanted it?

You're right on the films and the concerts, but not the CRs. The Complete Recordings clearly advertise complete recordings, and you'd expect the film cues in COMPLETE RECORDED form. Which they are not.

If you're not going to go all the way, FotR should have been called "The Fellowship of the Ring - The Compromise", and not "The Fellowship of the Ring - The Complete Recordings".

Again the versions that made it into the film are the film versions of these cues, whether edited from multiple parts and tweaked, and thus they have a valid place on the CR imo. Plus they are not all that bad edits, spotted mostly by those who listen to these things with ears for such tiny faults and armed with alternates. I do not deny that there are places that there might have been some more consideration to what to include in terms of fidelity to Shore's original ideas but you have to take into account that he was part of this production from the beginning so he has had his say to these things. I have said it before but my theory is that Fellowship of the Ring really shows the production team still in the process of learning how to put these things together as they had not done these things before. But it presents with some fidelity (there are exceptions) the music as heard in the EE version of the film, focusing specifically on the film versions. In the later two CRs the balance with what the composer intended and wanted to present on the CRs was more level providing with the music for the EE but containing more and more of Shore's original intentions and discarding later editorial changes.

But the thirst and passion for more music undoubtedly makes us sometimes a bit obsessive and compulsive on this matter. Some nugget of amazing new unheard alternate material might still be lying somewhere in the depths of those minutes and minutes of recording sessions.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Well said, inky!

[gkgyver 1,645]

Eloquent as ever, but the fact is that the product advertises the complete recording of each cue. And they are not. Period.

It's not "The Complete Edited Version" or "The Complete Film Version", but "Complete Recordings". Shore has the right to leave out as much music as he wants, but then it should have had a different title, and not this one.

And some edits are noticeable on first listen, like the truncated Black Rider cue, or the removed choir from Weathertop, where you can still clearly hear it faintly in the background.

I'm sorry, but for a historic score, the CR of FotR is, in retrospect, not a proper product.

[Incanus 5,714]

Eloquent as ever, but the fact is that the product advertises the complete recording of each cue. And they are not. Period.

It's not "The Complete Edited Version" or "The Complete Film Version", but "Complete Recordings". Shore has the right to leave out as much music as he wants, but then it should have had a different title, and not this one.

And some edits are noticeable on first listen, like the truncated Black Rider cue, or the removed choir from Weathertop, where you can still clearly hear it faintly in the background.

I'm sorry, but for a historic score, the CR of FotR is, in retrospect, not a proper product.

Does it advertise to contain complete recording of each cue? My memory fails on such press release statements from 2005.

And you can also argue that the film version of the Black Rider cue is just that, the version used in the film, whether just an edited down take or a different shorter take. As such it is just a matter of choice what version of the cue to include. But do you not already possess those passages you mention above in some form or the other on the OST and other sources? Shore specifically had the philosophy of not repeating material already available elsewhere on the CRs ( though again there are exceptions to this rule on all CRs).

Your statement that the FotR CR does not do the score justice sounds not only hyperbole but also somewhat ungrateful. I know you love the score but the CR is really not a train wreck by any standards of film score album production. Not by a long shot. We have much worse examples of that.

I'll give you that Complete Recordings is really a misnomer if you want to mince words as it is hardly all the music ever recorded for these scores, which it would imply to me in its strictest sense.

[Kühni 485]

Your statement that the FotR CR does not do the score justice sounds not only hyperbole but also somewhat ungrateful. I know you love the score but the CR is really not a train wreck by any standards of film score album production. Not by a long shot. We have much worse examples of that.

And again with the patronizing, Mikko. Jesus.

Georg points out many valid points, even though some of them are more semantic in nature. I'll remind you of what I said about the CRs, particularly FotR: that I won't let the 0.5% that are less than perfect (or "messy") pull down the remaining 99.5% that are. But I agree with Georg that FotR suffers the most from the bits missing, micro-edits etc. T2T and RotK have been handled differently in that regard. I won't argue that Shore and everyone involved on the production of the CRs had a learning curve, too, and that's fine. I also won't argue that the CRs follow/were always supposed to in the main follow the EE of the movies. That is also fine.

But yes, ever and anon I bemoan the fact that some of my favourite pieces of FotR, many of which were only heard under some of the production videos, will remain unreleased (or that the Rarities CD did not [could not?] address these pieces). I'm assuming if the CR for FotR had been handled the same way that T2T and RotK were, there might have been less issues. True, they are minor but you know how we can get about these things. Especially if the score in question is one's absolute favourite of anything they've ever heard (points at myself) or assessed as one of the most perfect in terms of composition, application and execution (points at Georg [paraphrased from memory]).

That we point out and discuss these things in no way takes away from the quality of Shore's compositions, or the joy I've been feeling about his music and having almost all of it (and which I will continue to feel) or, yes, the gratitude that so much thought and care has gone into these scores and their presentation on CD and that it has been made available to us.

And now please get off of your effin' high horse.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Mikko is correct. Its you two who are being pedantic!

[KK 3,307]

Kuhni, Mikko doesn't criticise the picking out the supposed "flaws" of the CRs, simply the way its being done. I mean, I never knew there was so much hate for the FOTR CR. I mean just because a few bits are missing, does that really warrant so much spite? Has it come to the point that we're criticising the title of the set now? Did you want it to be called "The Almost Complete Score Trimmed Around the Edges for Your Listening Convenience".

Besides, name three other scores that's gotten as lavish a treatment as this. Really, I get that you guys really want the alternates/missing microedits, but the trash that this set is being made out to be is uncalled for.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[gkgyver 1,645]

On top of that, I believe there are other reasons for the presentation of Fellowship than pure musical choices. There may have been a learning curve, but TTT and ROTK are so different in presentation (musically), that it can hardly be coincidence.

Both of these scores have countless microedits and extensions restored, while the same microedits were left untouched for the FotR release.

I know this is a shot in the dark, but early information on the EE of Fellowship included an isolated score. And I think the isolated score was already, or to a substantial degree, mixed, and then used for the CR release of Fellowship, in order to also save money, for a project whose success wasn't foreseeable. Hence why no microedits were restored, because that would have meant to go back to the original cue and redo it. The two bits that were added were either already present in the iso-score as bonuses, or included for the CR. I think it was already there, otherwise there would have been no reason to remove the choir from the Amon Hen bit, if you went to the troubles of redoing the original piece for the CR.

It would also explain the odd placement of the cast singing on the CR.

For TTT and ROTK, it had to be mixed all again for CD because CD mixes didn't exist, and the success of FotR made it clear it would be worth it.

[Jim Ware 526]

Generating anger about something released nearly ten years ago is not a productive line of thinking.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Indeed!

[gkgyver 1,645]

It's not an obscure score, but one of the most significant score releases of all time, it deserves the best possible treatment. It's worth pointing this out instead of handing out pairs of pink glasses.

[KK 3,307]

Besides, name three other scores that's gotten as lavish a treatment as this.

Superman, Ben-Hur and Star Trek: The Motion Picture.

Want more?

I have no complaints for those releases. I have none for this one either (except for the low-mixed choir).

[BloodBoal 7,538]

I have none either. You just wanted three other scores that have gotten as lavish a treatment as this, and I gave you three.

[KK 3,307]

Well done friendo!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Anytime, anywhere!

[Kühni 485]

.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Well I hate Germans, so...

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

I liked the Austrian way better.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

"Ash did I!"

[gkgyver 1,645]

Mikko is correct. Its you two who are being pedantic!

Being dissapointed by the leaving out of major choir parts, and transferred tracking onto a "complete recording" is hardly being pedantic. Was complaining about the omitted choir in the Star Trek 2009 Deluxe set also pedantic?

You're basically just saying "you're stupid", based on nothing but your personal satisfaction with the set.

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

The same thing happens over at FSM all the time. Complain about one album and the majority will side with you. Complain about the same problem on a different album and suddenly you're an ungrateful whiner who should shut up and go away. It doesn't matter if you're right.

[Incanus 5,714]

Your statement that the FotR CR does not do the score justice sounds not only hyperbole but also somewhat ungrateful. I know you love the score but the CR is really not a train wreck by any standards of film score album production. Not by a long shot. We have much worse examples of that.

And again with the patronizing, Mikko. Jesus.

Georg points out many valid points, even though some of them are more semantic in nature. I'll remind you of what I said about the CRs, particularly FotR: that I won't let the 0.5% that are less than perfect (or "messy") pull down the remaining 99.5% that are. But I agree with Georg that FotR suffers the most from the bits missing, micro-edits etc. T2T and RotK have been handled differently in that regard. I won't argue that Shore and everyone involved on the production of the CRs had a learning curve, too, and that's fine. I also won't argue that the CRs follow/were always supposed to in the main follow the EE of the movies. That is also fine.

But yes, ever and anon I bemoan the fact that some of my favourite pieces of FotR, many of which were only heard under some of the production videos, will remain unreleased (or that the Rarities CD did not [could not?] address these pieces). I'm assuming if the CR for FotR had been handled the same way that T2T and RotK were, there might have been less issues. True, they are minor but you know how we can get about these things. Especially if the score in question is one's absolute favourite of anything they've ever heard (points at myself) or assessed as one of the most perfect in terms of composition, application and execution (points at Georg [paraphrased from memory]).

That we point out and discuss these things in no way takes away from the quality of Shore's compositions, or the joy I've been feeling about his music and having almost all of it (and which I will continue to feel) or, yes, the gratitude that so much thought and care has gone into these scores and their presentation on CD and that it has been made available to us.

And now please get off of your effin' high horse.

So basically your OCD whining about the 0.5% of FotR CD production is noble and OK but when I defend the production as is it is just rosy pink glasses and high horsing. Hmmm. Interesting way to look at things Kühni. I think it is more about the way we accept these things after these years. I love the FotR score just as much as you do probably (I know you might disagree in the light of my horsiness) but I also am a realist and have been somewhat tempered over the years on this matter. You can't always get what you want.

I'll even admit that it isn't a perfect release in those respects you present with Georg on this issue (it sometimes galls me at night to know that the last choral phrase of the Seduction of the Ring was cut from Amon Hen sequence) but it somehow seems so futile to wake up to the fact now nigh 10 years after the set has been released. Especially when you probably have much of the stuff in one form or the other. I of course could be mistaken on this last point.

And in the end it is about de gustibus and all that. I hear you, I sympathize to a degree but am just a bit surprised that now after so long time this is the one fact you have taken from the FotR CR to nurture and it obviously galls quite a few people here to a surprising degree.

But I am now riding my High Horse into the sunset and shall never speak of this again! Tata! -M-

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Tensions are high on JWFan lately.

[Incanus 5,714]

Tensions are high on JWFan lately.

It is the Game of Mods, I tell you. Generates a lot of anxiety!

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

I hope it passes soon.

[Incanus 5,714]

Yes I hope we can delve deeper into the FotR CR compared to the other sources in this thread with the help of all who know it deeply. Faleel's work on it has been rather excellent.

One thing that wasn't released on the CRs or the Rarities was the original NZSO version of the Breaking of the Fellowship, which I thought was a shame but I think Doug mentioned years ago that it was part of the philosophy of not presenting material already released, even though it was just in the EE fan credits. It would have been a great way to round out the Rarities.

And I seem to remember that Shore gave the fiddle soloist in the Hobbiton scenes a lot of freedom with his decorative notes and the melodic line which resulted the very different performance on the Concerning Hobbits passage of the music and the Theatrical edition variation made it to the FotR EE fan credits.

[Faleel 5,348]

I assume this is part of the original Shortcut to Mushrooms?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxQSwI5aPja9emdTLURTOVZnY1k/edit?usp=sharing

[Kühni 485]

One thing that wasn't released on the CRs or the Rarities was the original NZSO version of the Breaking of the Fellowship, which I thought was a shame but I think Doug mentioned years ago that it was part of the philosophy of not presenting material already released, even though it was just in the EE fan credits. It would have been a great way to round out the Rarities.

Agreed. However, the explanation doesn't make complete sense, because for RotK, they did put Bilbo's Song on it, and that was from the EE end credits. Or did they count the film version of 'Breaking' as "material already released" (in another alternate version on the OST)?

But yes, it's a huge shame. That version is incredibly stirring and serves as a perfectly self-contained 6-minute representation of Shore's entire work on the trilogy. Oh well, at least it's easy to rip in good quality from the DVD/Blu-Ray.

[Jim Ware 526]

I assume this is part of the original Shortcut to Mushrooms?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxQSwI5aPja9emdTLURTOVZnY1k/edit?usp=sharing

Yes.

[Faleel 5,348]

Thanks!

[KK 3,307]

One thing that wasn't released on the CRs or the Rarities was the original NZSO version of the Breaking of the Fellowship, which I thought was a shame but I think Doug mentioned years ago that it was part of the philosophy of not presenting material already released, even though it was just in the EE fan credits. It would have been a great way to round out the Rarities.

Agreed. However, the explanation doesn't make complete sense, because for RotK, they did put Bilbo's Song on it, and that was from the EE end credits. Or did they count the film version of 'Breaking' as "material already released" (in another alternate version on the OST)?

But yes, it's a huge shame. That version is incredibly stirring and serves as a perfectly self-contained 6-minute representation of Shore's entire work on the trilogy. Oh well, at least it's easy to rip in good quality from the DVD/Blu-Ray.

I don't remember this version off the top of my head. Is this a unique arrangement of the cue?

[Faleel 5,348]

Its the New Zealand symphony recording of the Cannes (?) preview version:

[KK 3,307]

Wow. I've never heard that before.

[Faleel 5,348]

Wow. I've never heard that before.

Pays to listen to all the credits