The Themes of Howard Shore's The Hobbit

[Incanus 5,714]

The Corruption of Mirkwood should be changed in to Radagast B Theme or something like that. Doug basically confirmed that it was related to the wizard about a year ago:

Incanus01:

Speaking of Radagast I have always wanted to ask does the eerie boys choir/string motif which is featured in Radagast the Brown track and in the White Council connect with the wizard or to something more sinister? And does this musical idea migrate into the later films as I have not been able to spot it thusfar in DoS (it is of course early days of listening yet).

Doug Adams:

It's wizard material, to be sure! It speaks more to the wizards' powers than to anything sinister. I'll talk more about it down the line.

Also The Hobbit End Cap is used prominently in Flies and Spiders when Bilbo is freeing the dwarves, reminiscent of the variations heard in TTT at Fangorn when Gandalf speaks to the fellowship members about Merry and Pippin:

Flies and Spiders:4:36-4:52.

[Jay 37,355]

Ooooh!

BTW, I know Doug said that, but I purposely used the named I used, because that's how it's always used in the actual film. And it was dropped after AUJ anyway so we'll know know where Shore intended to take it (there must be some missing Radagast footage somewhere, methinks)

[Faleel 5,347]

I am not quite sure on Gandalf's B theme in A Good Omen.

I don't know, compare to 0:29 of Radagast the Brown.

[Incanus 5,714]

I am not quite sure on Gandalf's B theme in A Good Omen.

I don't know, compare to 0:29 of Radagast the Brown.

Although A Good Omen's placement in the film is bit of a conjecture I would argue against it purely because it would be odd for Shore to have Gandalf's theme there in the middle of a moment between Thorin and Bilbo. Not that Shore does not use his themes fluidly in scenes and Gandalf's B theme has been used in a surprisingly small moment like when he storms off in Trollshaws but it would seem a bit strange to me for this moment. Can someone more musically savvy chime in on this?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,714]

Although A Good Omen's placement in the film is bit of a conjecture I would argue against it purely because it would be odd for Shore to have Gandalf's theme there in the middle of a moment between Thorin and Bilbo.

I agree.

It makes more sense to use the Gondor Reborn theme for such a moment (though a gentle rendition of the Ringwraiths theme would have been equally fitting).

Well that was PJ. Anything is possible when PJ is involved.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[gkgyver 1,645]

I see someone understands sarcasm.

[Incanus 5,714]

Who?!

[Incanus 5,714]

Just noted that this has not been correctly listed either:

The Hobbit Skip-Beat figure is featured in The Quest for Erebor when Shore reprises his music for Bree at 1:05-1:16. It is mentioned but listed as Bree on the first page but is really just a variation on the Skip-Beat so I don't think there is a reason to give it a new title although its purpose is to evoke a specific moment in the previous film.

[Jay 37,355]

I disagree

[Barnald 365]

Yeah. Don't rob Bree of its theme. It worked damn hard for that.

[Incanus 5,714]

I disagree

Why? It is just the Hobbit Skip-Beat motif no matter how much you would like to give it some other association. Besides it does not have other associations to Bree in any other appearance throughout the trilogy. It was just probably temp tracked to the scene and stayed there at the director's behest.

Does not make sense.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,714]

Was it the Hobbit Skip-Beat in Strider? If not, then you're wrong and the later you admit it, the greater your shame will be.

I checked and it is there, which is nearly the exact same version note-for-note and Doug identifies it as the Hobbit Skip-Beat. Thematically it does not even make sense but obviously it works as a link to the moment of seeing Bree but nothing more. The Shire music in the first film is very much the same. Almost identical renditions of the themes for the Shire to drive home the connection and familiarity.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,714]

I know you have immense knowledge of the minutiae of these scores but have you guys read Doug Adams's book at all or perused it recently? You know, you can find quite a lot of helpful stuff in there concerning the themes.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,714]

I prefer to just wait Doug's Hobbit book to be released instead of trying to figure out everything myself!

Finally you joined my team! Welcome BBoal! Welcome! Let us wait together. Thinking just makes the head hurt. Am I right?!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,714]

So do I! I wouldn't want to actually be in the same space with you waiting the book . I'd go crazy!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,714]

Were you?!!! Were you really?!!!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,714]

The horror, the horror.

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

"Caliginous variations" on the Skip-beat figure is how Doug Adams refers to it in the book. The allusions are obvious, but I think it's quite a severe stance to say that it just is the Hobbit Skip-Beat motif! It seems reasonable to associate it with Bree. At least until the next film comes out and it gets played in Mordor or somewhere...

[Incanus 5,714]

"Caliginous variations" on the Skip-beat figure is how Doug Adams refers to it in the book. The allusions are obvious, but I think it's quite a severe stance to say that it just is the Hobbit Skip-Beat motif! It seems reasonable to associate it with Bree. At least until the next film comes out and it gets played in Mordor or somewhere...

So you can't vary the style of a motif in a classical fashion so it assumes the colour of its surroundings or colours the moment it is underscoring without it having specific leitmotific meaning tied to that particular place, idea, character or object? I hardly believe it has anything to do with Bree but the dark atmosphere where the music of the Hobbits assumes this guise as they are apprehensive and nervous about this town of Men. But you can of course try to explain it as some kind of specific theme for Bree if it makes you feel better. By this logic you could take every piece of every small motif and say it is a theme for Hollin or Trollshaws or the foothills of the Misty Mountains then. Why isn't the Skip-Beat version underscoring Merry and Pippin's mock fight with Boromir on the road south in FotR "Foothills of the Misty Mountains" theme?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

The thing about this particular fragment of music is that it appears precisely twice in the films so far, both times setting the scene for Bree, and one of which doesn't involve any hobbits (other than extras, possibly). I don't imagine that it was written as a Bree theme back in 2001, but it seems to have taken on the function of a "threatening Bree" signifier now.

[Incanus 5,714]

Because it doesn't show up twice!

The Skip-Beat shows up all over the place. It is not unique to Bree! Why is this so difficult to understand?!

I know you are winding me up and I know it is nice to see me go on a rant but why is this particular small leitmotif so difficult to understand as relating to Hobbits and not to Bree?

The thing about this particular fragment of music is that it appears precisely twice in the films so far, both times setting the scene for Bree, and one of which doesn't involve any hobbits (other than extras, possibly). I don't imagine that it was written as a Bree theme back in 2001, but it seems to have taken on the function of a "threatening Bree" signifier now.

So there is no chance PJ wanted to reprise the music just because it would be a small nod to the scene from FotR? It happens all the time in these films. Something like Rivendell. Gollum or Gandalf's fireworks motif are very easy to understand, last of which actually now becomes a new motif as it is reprised twice for the idea of fireworks specifically and the character of Gandalf, but the one Hobbit Skip-Beat gets to be a different theme now as the film makers used the motif twice as a musical nostalgic reminder? Does not compute.

[Barnald 365]

There are Hobbits in Bree, and at first glance Thorin in his hooded cloak during a stormy night might be mistaken for a Hobbit, especially from behind. Problem solved.

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

So there is no chance PJ wanted to reprise the music just because it would be a small nod to the scene from FotR?

On the contrary. That is surely exactly why it's used again here (except that it might equally well have been done on Shore's own initiative rather than at Jackson's request).

It happens all the time in these films. Something like Rivendell. Gollum or Gandalf's fireworks motif are very easy to understand, last of which actually now becomes a new motif as it is reprised for the fireworks specifically and the character of Gandalf, but the one Hobbit Skip-Beat gets to be a different theme now? Does not compute.

The interconnections in these scores are too complex to be susceptible to a simple classification, with every fragment of music being put into a single box. The particular piece of music we're talking about is part of the Skip-beat family, and it is specifically associated with Bree, and it probably intersects with some other classes of thematic material as well.

[Incanus 5,714]

I'll call it "The Convenient Skip-Beat" which can have any connection to anything in LotR universe then. Such a convenient motif it is in this complex world.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Because it doesn't show up twice!

The Skip-Beat shows up all over the place. It is not unique to Bree! Why is this so difficult to understand?!

Wow. Careful now, boy. I enjoy you, but be careful.

[Incanus 5,714]

But I have it here on good authority in Doug's autobiography fragment:

The fans are clamoring for the Bree motif. There is no such motif. It is the Hobbit Skip-Beat. GlointheDark and Barnald took down Incanus when he was trying to explain this to them. Bloodboal ambushed me when I was going to the kitchen for some coffee. He shot me with a tranquilizer dart from behind the sofa. I tried to defend myself but many more... They would not believe me and trapped me here in the basement. I cannot get out, I cannot get out! The Skip-Beats, skip-beats in the darkness. They are coming...

[KK 3,307]

I disagree

Why? It is just the Hobbit Skip-Beat motif no matter how much you would like to give it some other association. Besides it does not have other associations to Bree in any other appearance throughout the trilogy. It was just probably temp tracked to the scene and stayed there at the director's behest.

Does not make sense.

See, this is why I don't agree with the notion of assigning all these "references" their own thematic identities. Incanus is right, Shore doesn't treat it as a Bree motif, rather just a an allusion to a specific moment, and that moment happened to be a setting of the Hobbit Skip-beat.

The same goes for the fireworks, the map, Legolas' action ditty, Boromir's death, An Ancient Enemy 2.0....they're all allusions to specific moments.

As much as we'd like him to, I don't think Shore approaches this work with the intention of making every little bit a theme! There is such a thing as incidental music in these scores you know...

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

Indeed, father and bastard must approve...thus it was decreed in the Game of Admins...

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,714]

So now, we can't call something a theme unless KK and Inky give us their approval? OK...

What I don't understand in your reasoning is that you keep calling a theme that already exists and has a set leitmotific meaning something else because it is used in two different films in similar situation. As KK (and yes even I) said the moment is incidental and meant to mirror one if Fellowship of the Ring and draw a musical connection without specific thematic meaning.

An example of a more specific connection would be A Hobbit's Understanding used when Gandalf offers Bilbo Sting but also the wisdom of sparing a life, which thematically connects with the Mines of Moria where the same theme and another hobbit and Gandalf discuss this very same notion. This is a direct thematic call back where the music actually has leitmotific connection above and beyond just reprising same music for nostalgia. It goes to the whole notion of the nature of hobbits and the wisdom of sparing a life and how this ultimate affected the fortunes of the world when Gollum was spared.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,714]

So now, we can't call something a theme unless KK and Inky give us their approval? OK...

What I don't understand in your reasoning is that you keep calling a theme that already exists and has a set leitmotific meaning something else because it is used in two different films in similar situation. As KK (and yes even I) said the moment is incidental and meant to mirror one if Fellowship of the Ring and draw a musical connection without specific thematic meaning.

Dude! I never said LeBlanc was right to call it a Bree motif or that you were wrong! All I've said is this:

Was it the Hobbit Skip-Beat in Strider? If not, then you're wrong and the later you admit it, the greater your shame will be.

And you answered by saying that, yes, the Hobbit Skip-Beat is in Strider. Which, as you can deduce, means that you are not wrong!

So stop yelling at me! I never even insisted on calling that bit a Bree motif, for Eru's sake!

Sorry BB. You just happened to be the next unsuspecting person in the thread and I needed to yell at somebody. Apologies.

[KK 3,307]

Wizards don't take well to wry sarcasm, you fool of a boal!

So now, we can't call something a theme unless KK and Inky give us their approval? OK...

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,714]

Sorry BB. You just happened to be the next unsuspecting person in the thread and I needed to yell at somebody. Apologies.

Too late for that. I don't want your stinking apologies, you filthy Azog poodoo!

My dear BloodBoal!’ BloodBoals really are amazing creatures, as I have said before. You can learn all that there is to know about their ways in a month, and yet after a hundreds and hundreds of posts they can still surprise you in an argument.

[KK 3,307]

Boals never learn...especially the bloody ones!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

Shore doesn't treat it as a Bree motif, rather just a an allusion to a specific moment, and that moment happened to be a setting of the Hobbit Skip-beat.

But, more specifically, that moment happened to be set in Bree. It is precisely Breeness which the two occurrences have in common, and it's in order to flag up that common Breeness that the passage was repeated. It's also not purely a setting of the Skip-beat motif, but a fragment of music which incorporates that motif as one component; the more prominent aspect of the music is the melodic line B - Bb - C# - D I would say. It's not a "Bree theme" in the same way that there's a Shire theme and a Laketown theme and a Gondor theme, obviously, but we need some sort of nomenclature if we're going to note these kinds of associations/repetitions, and surely it seems reasonable to give this bit of music a "Bree" tag. I'll bet that if Doug Adams was writing a book on this score it would say something like "the same caliginous variations on the Skip-beat figure that accompanied Frodo's arrival in Bree".

There is such a thing as incidental music in these scores you know...

Heresy!

[Faleel 5,347]

"the same caliginous variations on the Skip-beat figure that accompanied Thorin's arrival in Bree".

fixed. AUJ comes first.

[Incanus 5,714]

Jason's list is excellent. But you can always improve.