The Themes of Howard Shore's The Hobbit

[Jay 37,287]

He decided to spend his personal time editing every single one to be blank when he decided to leave the forum.  The funny part is, then he came back!

[Demodex 557]

LOL

[Mr. Who 919]

Just discovered this thread. Did anyone ever add BOTFA to this thematic breakdown? @Jay

[Jay 37,287]

I know I personally never got around to it

[Chen G. 3,943]

3 hours ago, Mr. Who said:

Did anyone ever add BOTFA to this thematic breakdown

 

Its in pages 20-21.

[Jay 37,287]

Oh wow, how about that.  I forgot that happened!  Neat!

[bored 306]

Just read through a lot of this thread, surprised there's some thematic material no one mentioned. 

 

First, I believe this section is a slowed version of Bilbo's Took theme from "Dreaming of Bag End":

 

1:16 - 1:25

 

As well as the B section/end cap of "Dreaming of Bag End" having a subtle reference in the final track, seemingly with a variation of the beginning of the B section as the main melody (and with the same harmony), but there also seems to be a variation on the end cap of said B section in the woodwinds at the same time. Then, before the History of the Ring references, one last variant of the end cap of the B section can be heard in the cello, being very similar aesthetically and melodically to the one heard in "The Return Journey":

 

2:01 - 2:19, 3:08

 

Second, I think the theme that's been pointed to as possible variations of Bilbo's Adventure theme, are actually variants of Bilbo's Song. I'm sure someone has already speculated on this, but if not, this is my take:

 

The most obvious one to me is between these two sections:

 

0:44 - 1:08

 

 2:12 - 2:51 (Might be a combination of the referenced section of Bilbo's Song and others)

 

Which may tie into this moment here at 0:44 also possibly being Bilbo's Song:

 

But before the first section I mentioned in "The Return Journey", there's another before it that seems to have elements of several different parts of Bilbo's Theme, (possibly disguising or building it up before the more overt statement): 

 

1:36 - 2:04

 

Could be wrong, it could be a variation of Bilbo's Adventure that might just sound similar to me, but the slower nature, the starting notes of the basic Shire melody being repeated twice (and resembling Thorin's theme which I always thought Bilbo's Song did as well), and the violin section that follows resembling the greater interval leaps and variations of the Shire theme found in Bilbo's Song points me more towards that. Interested to hear you guys' takes on these.

[WampaRat 1,105]

Listening to the musical commentary that Doug Adams did with theonering.net, it blew my mind when he said the opening melody that kicks off “My Dear Frodo” from Unexpected Journey was an iteration of the Sons of Durin theme. I always loved that tune and thought it had just fallen by the wayside with other ideas from Unexpected Journey. Glad to find it survived in some form in the other two scores. Shame it didn’t pop up one last time in its first guise to bookend the trilogy in the last film.
 

(0:00-0:37)

(3:07-4:00)

 

[Faleel 5,337]

I think itts appearance in AUJ might be my favorite ME earth film score opening, definitely top 3 along with The Prophecy and Foundations of Stone/Glamdring

[Chen G. 3,943]

10 hours ago, WampaRat said:

Shame it didn’t pop up one last time in its first guise to bookend the trilogy in the last film.

 

There is a statement or two that are very close to that variation, though:

 

 

[WampaRat 1,105]

10 hours ago, Roll the Bones said:

I think itts appearance in AUJ might be my favorite ME earth film score opening, definitely top 3 along with The Prophecy and Foundations of Stone/Glamdring

Absolutely! Especially Glamdring. “MEHTTAAAANAAAAA!!” It “slaps” as the kids say.

 

I often wonder had the hobbit films retained their original two-film structure how that would have impacted Shores scores. Obviously we would have had less ME music from him. But I feel the story telling connections/evolution of themes would have been a bit more pronounced. More noticeable on first listen I suppose instead of the very gradual shift the themes undergo across three films. (Subtlety. YUCK 😉haha) But that’s just me.

21 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

There is a statement or two that are very close to that variation, though:

 

 

Yes! Since hearing that comment from Doug, I’ve been able to connect it more and more. There’s a certain positivity and optimism to the way it opens UEJ that I miss. But that’s definitely the point by the end of the story I suppose. What began as a fun quest/adventure ends in tragedy and loss of innocence. Pretty bold for a “children’s novel.”

 

I do love that it at least comes back one last time in “A Good Omen”. A sort of send-off to innocence as it were. But never to be heard like that again.

[Chen G. 3,943]

12 minutes ago, WampaRat said:

There’s certain positivity and optimism to the way it opens UEJ that I miss. But that’s definitely the point by the end of the story I suppose. What began as a fun quest/adventure ends in tragedy and loss of innocence. 

 

Quite: its what I love about the way the story is told cinematically.

 

That moment that merits that rendition is the only truly happy moment the Dwarves get as a group in The Battle of the Five Armies. Something wonderfully poignant about that!

 

By the way, that opening also presages the Ring's music in the string-line.

[Faleel 5,337]

Just noticed something:

 

1:16 of The Quest for Erebor has a section similar to 4:26 of Gandalf the White

[TolkienSS 405]

On 16/09/2022 at 5:32 AM, Roll the Bones said:

I think itts appearance in AUJ might be my favorite ME earth film score opening, definitely top 3 along with The Prophecy and Foundations of Stone/Glamdring

 

Yes, although the opening to FotR is transcendental. The way the strings and winds come in after the choral Lothlorien theme is so chilling.

[Faleel 5,337]

20 minutes ago, TolkienSS said:

 

Yes, although the opening to FotR is transcendental. The way the strings and winds come in after the choral Lothlorien theme is so chilling.

Its definitely iconic, though its knocked down slightly due to being a lift.

[TolkienSS 405]

9 hours ago, Roll the Bones said:

Its definitely iconic, though its knocked down slightly due to being a lift.

 

Tbh I never knew that. I always assumed the opening was original and the others copied.

[Chen G. 3,943]

On 21/09/2022 at 2:52 PM, Roll the Bones said:

1:16 of The Quest for Erebor has a section similar to 4:26 of Gandalf the White

 

Well, they're both Hobbit-related material: Bree is musically associated with minor-moded fragments of Hobbit music, which makes sense for a partially-Hobbit-populated town.

 

One is a minor-moded skip beat accompaniment that we associate with Hobbiton and the Hobbits' playful side; the other is an ostinato, associated in part with much of Merry and Pippin's antics, that's spun from that little cadence to the skip-beat that often scores the Hobbits acting all befuddled.

[Jay 37,287]

On 22/09/2022 at 3:44 AM, TolkienSS said:

 

Tbh I never knew that. I always assumed the opening was original and the others copied.

 

If we never heard any alternates and only knew what was in the film, the final prologue does feel like it introduces a suite of themes that will get explored as the picture goes on, for sure. 

 

But it was definitely the other way around, where the prologue cue as heard on the OST or Rarities Archive is the what Shore wrote to open the film with, and was likely still in the film for a long while.  Those other themes would get introduced throughout the picture in Shore's original vision instead of being front-loaded.

 

I don't know when or why Jackson wanted the entire prologue cue replaced, or who decided that the new recording would entirely consist of music that had already been recorded for other scenes, but that's definitely what it is. 

[crocodile 7,984]

When you say that you don't mean tracked, right? Just comprised of bits and bobs of other written cues?

 

Karol

[Jim Ware 526]

All re-recorded, not tracked.

[Jay 37,287]

The sheet music comprised of pages taken from other cues, the recording is all new, of course! 

[crocodile 7,984]

Ah that's OK...and it even makes dramatic sense. Like a literal teaser for things to come.

 

Karol

[TolkienSS 405]

3 hours ago, Jay said:

The sheet music comprised of pages taken from other cues, the recording is all new, of course! 

 

I assume things like the "In the land of Mordor" bit or the nameless fear bit were written for the prologue? Because they don't appear anywhere else in the score.

[Faleel 5,337]

40 minutes ago, TolkienSS said:

 

I assume things like the "In the land of Mordor"

That is in Parth Galen...

 

Or do you mean the "on the slopes of mount doom they fought for the freedom of middle-earth eaaauggh eeuagh" bit

[Jim Ware 526]

3 hours ago, TolkienSS said:

 

I assume things like the "In the land of Mordor" bit or the nameless fear bit were written for the prologue? Because they don't appear anywhere else in the score.

Yes, there are some sections from the original prologue in there.

[TolkienSS 405]

15 hours ago, Clockwork Angel said:

That is in Parth Galen...

 

Or do you mean the "on the slopes of mount doom they fought for the freedom of middle-earth eaaauggh eeuagh" bit

 

It's in Parth Galen, but not with the same orchestration, is it?

I can't remember right now but I think those are two different statement.

[Jay 37,287]

You know, in all the time it's been since I realized the film prologue was a re-use of existing compositions, I never actually took the time to sit down and figure out where each piece came from. 

 

This discussion has finally motivated me to do so now!

 

Here's as far as I got.

 

FOTR TCR disc 1 track 1 "Prologue: On Ring To Rule Them All" on the left ≈ TCR or TRA equivalent on the right

1. 0:00-0:31 ≈ TCR III-03 The Mirror Of Galadriel [1:05-1:19]
2. 0:31-2:00 ≈ TCR III-05 Parth Galen [0:21-2:29]
3. 2:00-2:13 ≈ TCR III-05 Parth Galen [3:26-3:36]
4. 2:13-2:19 ≈ ???
5. 2:19-2:47 ≈ TCR I-04 The Nazgul [0:56-1:17]
6. 2:47-3:01 ≈ TRA 01 Prologue: One Ring To Rule Them All (Alternate) [2:17-2:31]
7. 3:01-3:13 ≈ TCR I-04 The Nazgul [0:56-1:17]
8. 3:13-3:23 ≈ TCR III-05 Parth Galen [2:31-2:40]
9. 3:23-3:58 ≈ TCR III-05 Parth Galen [1:54-2:29] w/ an original (???) horn passage on top
10. 3:58-4:05 ≈ ???
11. 4:05-4:19 ≈  TCR III-05 Parth Galen [0:58-1:13]
12. 4:19-4:27 ≈ TCR II-6 The Sword That Was Broken [2:17-2:24]
13. 4:27-4:56 ≈ n/a, 2002 EE insert
14. 4:56-5:34 ≈ TCR III-05 Parth Galen [0:28-1:19]
15. 5:34-6:40 ≈ TRA 01 Prologue: One Ring To Rule Them All (Alternate) [4:12-5:05]
16. 6:40-7:10 ≈ TCR III-05 Parth Galen [0:28-1:07] w/ original (???) English Horn orchestration
17. 7:10-end ≈ EE insert chord? Tracked chord?

It's interesting to compare these and notice the performance, tempo, and other differences between them.

 

It's also kind of funny that the first phrase of the Lothlorien theme is actually missing from the "Mirror of Galadriel" TCR track since it was dropped from the final cut of the film, so you could "restore" it using the prologue opening if you wanted to.  I wonder how successful that edit could be...

[Chen G. 3,943]

The unused part of "Mirror of Galadriel" also has a soloist over the chorus, though...

[Jay 37,287]

Yea, it wouldn't really work I guess, but what else can we do when there's no indication we'll ever get comprehensive editions of these scores released

[Faleel 5,337]

Use the bit from the EE scene selection menu?

11 hours ago, Jay said:

!

 

 

1. 2:13-2:19 ≈ ??? this very cool Evil Of The Ring statement is unlike any in the score right?  Is it taken from that section of the Council of Elrond replaced by an EE insert that we've never heard, maybe?

If I understand you correctly, The replaced bit is in the EE menus and documentaries, and it's pretty much just a harp solo.

 

I always considered it based on the barad-dur reveal

[Jay 37,287]

But is that ALL of the missing bit or is there more we've never heard anywhere? 

 

Anyway, that was just one late night guess of where the Evil of the Ring statement could be from. Maybe it's from a section of the original prologue that wasn't in the OST or TFA edits? 

[Faleel 5,337]

1 hour ago, Jay said:

But is that ALL of the missing bit or is there more we've never heard anywhere? 

 

 

I believe so, as the EE documentaries/menus have it connecting to what we have on the CR/OST/video games.

 

Fun fact if you compare the L2P version of the prologue minus this EotR bit, to the film version insert of Out of the Frying Pan (for Thorin's charge), it's pretty close

[Chen G. 3,943]

3 hours ago, Clockwork Angel said:

to the film version insert of Out of the Frying Pan (for Thorin's charge), it's pretty close

 

Very!

 

No wraiths in sight in either case!

[Faleel 5,337]

32 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

Very!

 

No wraiths in sight in either case!

But there is a Ring!

[Chen G. 3,943]

Not until I watched Monoverantus' videos did I realize how much those "Ringwraith" chords infect absolutely everything in Middle Earth: the Orcs get them, Sauron and the eye get them, Saruman gets them, Galadriel (in her "nuclear" mode) gets them, the possessed Theoden gets them. They're EVERYWHERE!

[Jay 37,287]

On 16/01/2023 at 11:48 PM, Jay said:

4:19-4:27≈ ???

 

I figured this one out - it's from The Sword That Was Broken 2:17-2:24!

 

If anybody can figure out the remaining unknown bits, please let me know!

[Faleel 5,337]

2 hours ago, Jay said:

 

I figured this one out - it's from The Sword That Was Broken 2:17-2:24!

Crap! Never made that connection

[Jay 37,287]

I just put on the CR and started listening to it all trying to find it, and when it got to that track I was like "aha!"

[Faleel 5,337]

@Jay 3:58 bit kind of sounds like 1:43 of Balin's Tomb

[Jay 37,287]

Thanks, I'll check it out when I can

 

It's always possible the remaining really short bits were newly written to bridge the existing pages together

[TolkienSS 405]

On 17/01/2023 at 9:47 PM, Chen G. said:

Not until I watched Monoverantus' videos did I realize how much those "Ringwraith" chords infect absolutely everything in Middle Earth: the Orcs get them, Sauron and the eye get them, Saruman gets them, Galadriel (in her "nuclear" mode) gets them, the possessed Theoden gets them. They're EVERYWHERE!

 

That's because they're an essential part of Shore's musical language.

[Chen G. 3,943]

They are. I always understood we hear them in contexts other than with the wraiths: not just in the prologue, but also for Frodo’s vision at Amon Hen and for the fight between Gandalf and Saruman. But I never realized quite how much.

 

Generally speaking, I think they’re used to make parallel between the wraiths and Sauron’s other servants: it’s why Saruman gets them a ton, but so do the Orcs. They’re definitely used more broadly than “I hear that chord, I see a wraith.”

 

And I’m not even talking about the so-called “Mount Doom” chords: those ones are LITERALLY everywhere. A few chipper Shire scenes notwithstanding, you probably can’t look at three lines of music without those being in there somewhere.

[TolkienSS 405]

Well, the Mount Doom chords are two minor triads a major third apart, which is very commonplace in his music and modern film music in general. In a musical sense, there is plenty in LotR that Shore has done before, it's just the way it's orchestrated and applied that sticks out.

Lord Of The Rings is probably THE best example you can give for what some people call pantriadic chromaticism. 

[Faleel 5,337]

8 minutes ago, TolkienSS said:

pantriadic chromaticism. 

Sounds contagious.

[Chen G. 3,943]

6 hours ago, TolkienSS said:

Well, the Mount Doom chords are two minor triads a major third apart, which is very commonplace in his music and modern film music in general. In a musical sense, there is plenty in LotR that Shore has done before, it's just the way it's orchestrated and applied that sticks out.

Well sure, it’s the “Tarnhelm” progression. But just because it’s a basic building block or a recurring Shore fingerprint doesn’t mean it’s not leitmotivic. I guess what I’m getting at is that to call it “Mount Doom” (or any other designation) is very much an understatement because we hear it in the score in hundreds and hundreds of ways that have nothing to do with Orodruin.

[Mr. Who 919]

On 14/1/2023 at 4:05 PM, Jay said:

The sheet music comprised of pages taken from other cues, the recording is all new, of course! 

This is interesting. I just saw the Extended FOTR film in the cinema and I never realized that the prologue used so many "tracked" bits. I need to check out the rarities version again.

[Chen G. 3,943]

More and more I’m starting to think it’s a shame the Gondor-type material in the rarities prologue isn’t in the movie: it creates a nice mirror image with Aragorn’s coronation so that it actually feels like a culmination.

[Jay 37,287]

What will really blow your mind is that Shore initially only wrote the "History of the Ring theme" into the Parth Galen sequence (and it wasn't a theme for the ring initially), and only later got added to the Prologue and Argonath scenes via re-writes, to scenes in Hobbiton via tracking, and to various scenes in the EE only via 2002 recordings once the melody was now seen as a theme for the Ring thanks to Jackson's tracking and re-write requests.

[Jim Ware 526]

20 minutes ago, Jay said:

What will really blow your mind is that Shore initially only wrote the "History of the Ring theme" into the Parth Galen sequence (and it wasn't a theme for the ring initially), and only later got added to the Prologue and Argonath scenes via re-writes, to scenes in Hobbiton via tracking, and to various scenes in the EE only via 2002 recordings once the melody was now seen as a theme for the Ring thanks to Jackson's tracking and re-write requests.

 

And then it was added to the version ofThe Prophecy that appears in the symphony!

[Jay 37,287]

I forgot about that! 

 

I guess Shore didn't have a problem with Jackson changing the intention of that melody