gkgyver 1,647 Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 The last two pages are exhausting to follow with logic. Damn you, Howard! Glóin the Dark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafeUnderHill 205 Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,236 Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 The last two pages are exhausting to follow with logic. Damn you, Howard! Smeltington 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,974 Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 But the Dwarf Lord's b phrase is not identical to the notes heard in On the Doorstep.That's because it's a variation on the theme, not a note-by-note statement. Howard Shore does this a lot with his thematic material - augmenting or diminishing the rhythmic values, reharmonising etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,541 Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 39,199 Posted January 14, 2014 Author Share Posted January 14, 2014 I know all that, I meant why did nobody look at my main post of this thread when it went up and say "hey, I don't think The Company's Adventure Theme should be listed as a separate theme, because it's really a different setting of Bilbo's Adventure".Anyways, I still don't get why Shore would label a concert arrangement containing ONLY (supposed) Bilbo's Adventure theme as "Erebor".I'm sure we'll find out eventually, it must have something to do with the scene this setting of the theme is/was intended for.What do you mean? "Erebor" is a theme presentation, not written to footage... and you can see what the setting in "The World Is Ahead" was written to right here:https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B1NAd4WEjm_DZVM2N09qbDBiWk0/edit?usp=sharing(0:12-0:41 is Bilbo's Adventure, 0:41-0:55 is what I had been calling The Company's Adventure) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,308 Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 But the Dwarf Lord's b phrase is not identical to the notes heard in On the Doorstep.That's because it's a variation on the theme, not a note-by-note statement. Howard Shore does this a lot with his thematic material - augmenting or diminishing the rhythmic values, reharmonising etc.Indeed. Hence Erebor = "Bilbo's Adventure" variation.Magic word, that last one.I know all that, I meant why did nobody look at my main post of this thread when it went up and say "hey, I don't think The Company's Adventure Theme should be listed as a separate theme, because it's really a different setting of Bilbo's Adventure".Anyways, I still don't get why Shore would label a concert arrangement containing ONLY (supposed) Bilbo's Adventure theme as "Erebor".I'm sure we'll find out eventually, it must have something to do with the scene this setting of the theme is/was intended for.IT WAS NOT INTENDED FOR A SCENE! IT'S A FUCKIN' THEME PRESENTATION!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 39,199 Posted January 14, 2014 Author Share Posted January 14, 2014 Right, but while I will concede that what I have been calling "The Company Adventure Theme" is really just a variation / different setting of "Bilbo's Adventure Theme", I still stand that that music in "On The Doorstep" is very specifically "Thrain's Theme", and while it may be RELATED to the Dwarf Lord's theme from AUJ, they are CLEARLY (to me) two separate themes that share some things in common (as many themes in these scores do).Heck, when the B Section of "The Dwarf Lords" shows up in the track "An Unexpected Party", it is when Balin tells Gandalf that Thorin is late because he is meeting with the Dwarfs of the Blue Hills. Which has NOTHING to do with Thrain.I believe that in TABA, Dain's Theme will be as related to The Dwarf Lord's as Thrain's Theme is, but we will still consider them all to be three separate themes. Heck, what we call the B Section of The Dwarf Lords might already BE Dain's Theme, leaving the A Section of that theme as a theme for all of the lords together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,541 Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 39,199 Posted January 14, 2014 Author Share Posted January 14, 2014 No, I have no explanation for that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,541 Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafeUnderHill 205 Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,541 Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glóin the Dark 1,280 Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 that music in "On The Doorstep" is very specifically "Thrain's Theme", and while it may be RELATED to the Dwarf Lord's theme from AUJ, they are CLEARLY (to me) two separate themes that share some things in common (as many themes in these scores do).To me, the section classified as "Thráin's Theme" (lasting from 0:00 to 0:45) is almost entirely made up of fragments of the "Erebor" melody (I would struggle even to call it a variation), with the two statements of this frequent four-note motif interposed around the middle. I'm not disputing that it is an evocation of Thráin in this setting - just that I don't hear anything significant which is exclusive to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Great Gonzales 6,224 Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 As you said, why would Shore wrote a theme presentation for a theme that isn't used in the film(s)? If we look at A Very Respectable Hobbit, Dreaming Of Bag-End and The Dwarf Lords, they all present themes that appear in the film or in the OST. Why would Erebor be any different? Ergo, the theme in this track is Bilbo's Adventure theme and not some other theme.But the theme is used in The World is Ahead......I know all that, I meant why did nobody look at my main post of this thread when it went up and say "hey, I don't think The Company's Adventure Theme should be listed as a separate theme, because it's really a different setting of Bilbo's Adventure".Anyways, I still don't get why Shore would label a concert arrangement containing ONLY (supposed) Bilbo's Adventure theme as "Erebor".I'm sure we'll find out eventually, it must have something to do with the scene this setting of the theme is/was intended for.What do you mean? "Erebor" is a theme presentation, not written to footage... and you can see what the setting in "The World Is Ahead" was written to right here:https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B1NAd4WEjm_DZVM2N09qbDBiWk0/edit?usp=sharingCan we entirely trust that video? what with the OST track being edited down slightly and all, wouldn't that mess with the sync slightly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,308 Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Faleel, the theme heard in "The World is Ahead" IS Bilbo's Adventure. This we know for certain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Great Gonzales 6,224 Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 So wait, you are telling me, that the tin whistle motif in A Very Respectable Hobbit, the horn motif in The World is Ahead, and the theme as Bilbo rescues Thorin is all the same theme!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,308 Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Great Gonzales 6,224 Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 You are nuts.Why would Shore have two seperate arrangments for the same theme? (A Very Respectable Hobbit and Erebor) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,308 Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 The same theme is set to two different settings. "A Very Respectable Hobbit" is a basic summary of all the Shire material, both old and new (with the exception of Bilbo's main theme). "Erebor" is the heroic setting of the same theme.In "The World is Ahead", you hear the innocent tin whistle rendition of the melody as Bilbo begins his adventure but you hear the more heroic interval jumps taken up by the horns.It's the same theme. Same melodic content. Just going through variations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Great Gonzales 6,224 Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Bilbo's main theme.Bilbo's main theme is Baggins/Took, and its in there.Whats next? Marion's theme being a variation of the Ark theme? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,308 Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Oh, you're right. Sorry, for some reason I thought it wasn't in there. My point still stands of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,787 Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Obviously the best discussion here goes on when I am sleeping! Damn!But yes I agree with KK that Bilbo's Adventure Theme is heard in a grander variation in the Erebor track and I think it might have become the company's de facto adventure theme if Misty Mountains had not been given prominence by the film makers.I just listened to the AUJ and the Edge of the Wild opening and realized that the variation on this Bilbo's Adventure Theme there even has the Hobbit Skip-Beat type of idea accompanying it in the high rhythmic string figures. Am I hearing things and can anyone here confirm this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barnald 396 Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Heck, when the B Section of "The Dwarf Lords" shows up in the track "An Unexpected Party", it is when Balin tells Gandalf that Thorin is late because he is meeting with the Dwarfs of the Iron Hills. Which has NOTHING to do with Thrain.And the Company climbing Thror's statue has something to do with Thrain?Well I was going to question Jason's identification of Thrain's Theme on the basis of that, but as he is adamant about it, I guess you could say that Thrain's bequeathing of the map and key have culminated in this moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgyver 1,647 Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Heck, when the B Section of "The Dwarf Lords" shows up in the track "An Unexpected Party", it is when Balin tells Gandalf that Thorin is late because he is meeting with the Dwarfs of the Iron Hills. Which has NOTHING to do with Thrain. And the Company climbing Thror's statue has something to do with Thrain?Again, it's the theme from The Dwarf Lords. And if we assume the naming of that theme has something to do with its use (duh), then it's a theme for the dwarf lords. Which is why it plays over the mentioning of the meeting in the Iron Hills, and why it plays lonely and forsaken over the sight of the giant statues, remeniscing former might. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 39,199 Posted January 15, 2014 Author Share Posted January 15, 2014 Except that it's not the same theme in both places! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgyver 1,647 Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Did you read Shark's post about variations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Great Gonzales 6,224 Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Did you read Shark's post about variations?I would assume he did, but it does not matter, if a reliable source has revealed to him that it is Thrain's Theme now does it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 39,199 Posted January 15, 2014 Author Share Posted January 15, 2014 Well as you know I am not musically trained at all. All I know is this. The B Section of the Dwarf Lords theme, as heard at the end of the "An Unexpected Party" track, is a 6 note section, followed by a 5 note section, follow by a 7 note section, like this:DO do, do do, do, dooooDO do, do do doDo do, do, da-dum, de dooWhile the bit in On The Doorstep we've been talking about is just a 4 note melody repeated twice wedged in between two Erebor statementsDO do, do doDO do, do doMaybe somebody can transcribed the notes played to see how many are the same but to me, just humming those passages, I am humming different things.I'm not trying to claim they aren't related - hell, half the themes in this score are related to the other half - I'm just saying they are not identical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,541 Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 DO do, do do, do, dooooDO do, do do doDo do, do, da-dum, de dooDO do, do doDO do, do do Sorry. Please continue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 39,199 Posted January 15, 2014 Author Share Posted January 15, 2014 As I said, I am not musically trained. I couldn't possibly tell you what notes are playing in those passages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,541 Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 As I said, I am not musically trained. I couldn't possibly tell you what notes are playing in those passages.Well, neither can I. That doesn't make you "typing" the themes less funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smeltington 1,555 Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 While the bit in On The Doorstep we've been talking about is just a 4 note melody repeated twice wedged in between two Erebor statementsDO do, do doDO do, do doIf I'm thinking of the right part, isn't that just the last four notes of the Erebor theme heard twice in a row? The Erebor theme starts with a six-note figure, and often (not always) continues with a four-note figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,541 Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Great Gonzales 6,224 Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 That sounds like a slower, more gentle rendition of the Wargs' motif to me!Ha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,787 Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Do do do or do do do not. There is no try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glóin the Dark 1,280 Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 That was The Police with "Do do do, da da da", their gibberish classic.~ Alan PartridgeWell as you know I am not musically trained at all. All I know is this. The B Section of the Dwarf Lords theme, as heard at the end of the "An Unexpected Party" track, is a 6 note section, followed by a 5 note section, follow by a 7 note section, like this:DO do, do do, do, dooooDO do, do do doDo do, do, da-dum, de dooWhile the bit in On The Doorstep we've been talking about is just a 4 note melody repeated twice wedged in between two Erebor statementsDO do, do doDO do, do doMaybe somebody can transcribed the notes played to see how many are the same but to me, just humming those passages, I am humming different things.I'm not trying to claim they aren't related - hell, half the themes in this score are related to the other half - I'm just saying they are not identical.I think it's possible to hear the On the Doorstep figure as being an allusion to the Dwarf Lords one (with its melody and harmony both simplified) rather than as something distinct, but I'm not quite convinced that's the most appropriate view. The four-note figure still seems to me to be something more primitive, which can materialise in various different themes.(Disclaimer: I'm a musical layperson too.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,541 Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barnald 396 Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 I always thought that was the Laketown theme. I recall it being heard four times in all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,787 Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 DOS 2-01 Thrice Welcome2:04-2:27 The Politicians of LaketownJust saw that now, but isn't that the Laketown theme and not the Politicans Of Laketown theme?Yeap that most definitely is the Lake-Town Theme. SafeUnderHill 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,379 Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 What politicians? Laketown doesnt have any. Only a feudal lord. That theme designation is a misnomer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 39,199 Posted January 22, 2014 Author Share Posted January 22, 2014 My name for it was "The Master of Lake-town's Theme", before I bought the SE CD and saw that Shore labeled it "The Politicians of Lake-town" is his own handwriting. Have you purchased the SE OST, Steef? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Great Gonzales 6,224 Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 How do we know that is Shore's Handwriting !?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstrox 6,852 Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 I wrote it in Jason's booklet, just to throw him off the scent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,379 Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 My name for it was "The Master of Lake-town's Theme", before I bought the SE CD and saw that Shore labeled it "The Politicians of Lake-town" is his own handwriting. Have you purchased the SE OST, Steef?My sister was supposed to get it for me for Christmas, but the company she ordered it from went into receivership (bankruptcy), we are still waiting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 39,199 Posted January 22, 2014 Author Share Posted January 22, 2014 Wow, what a weird circumstance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,379 Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 They claim is might still be delivered and since she paid for it she wants to wait before ordering it somewhere else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barnald 396 Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 What Jason has done with cataloguing the themes was the kind of thing I was hoping Doug would do in his LOTR book. Maybe if Doug does a combined 'Music of the Middle-Earth Films' omnibus (you know it will happen, and with enough exclusive material to compel us all to buy it after already purchasing both volumes separately), he could add an appendix with an exact timestamp for where each theme appears and maybe even track-by-track breakdowns by theme.With that in mind, has anyone already done a similar thing for the LOTR scores? EDIT: Ah I see you started one and never finished it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,541 Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 With that in mind, has anyone already done a similar thing for the LOTR scores?Happiness is just one click away: http://www.melson.nl/lotr/index.php Barnald 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafeUnderHill 205 Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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