The Themes of Howard Shore's The Hobbit

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,435]

Then Doug Adams' liner notes to TABA....

Whats TABA?

[gkgyver 1,647]

TBOTFA.

[KK 3,308]

Boom-tzz?

[gkgyver 1,647]

With lots of oomph.

[Gnome in Plaid 219]

Does anybody else hear some hints at the Pity of Gollum in "Riddles in the Dark" right at the beginning before the first History of the Ring statement?

[Incanus 5,818]

Does anybody else hear some hints at the Pity of Gollum in "Riddles in the Dark" right at the beginning before the first History of the Ring statement?

Do you mean the rhythmic low string opening of the track? Actually it could well be that it is quoting the opening pitches of Gollum's theme. Brings to mind the moment in FotR when Gandalf is going off to find Gollum and Pity of Gollum theme is quoted in fragments there.

[Jay 39,661]

*BUMP*!!

The main post hasn't been updated since December 30th of last year, so it was time for an update!

Here's what should be a list of all the changes I made, hopefully I didn't miss anything in this list.

1. Fixed mistake throughout where "Lake-town" was spelled as "Laketown".

2. Since I now understand what Beorn's Theme is, I correctly notate it's appearances in the DOS tracks "Wilderland" and "House of Beorn"

3. Notated that the on-screen title music of DOS in "Wilderland" actually contains Smaug's A Theme and B Theme playing at the same time.

4. Added The Necromancer's Theme to 2:36-3:22 of "The House Of Beorn", surprised it was never pointed out before that that was there. (Speaking of this theme: It needs a new name and possibly some corrections about some of its locations).

5. Corrected 1:12-1:37 of DOS track "Mirkwood" - it's Sauron's Theme and not Mirkwood theme there.

6. Removed "The Company's Adventure Theme" from being a separate theme, and recategorized those passages as being variants of "Bilbo's Adventure Theme", per discussion on page 17ish of this thread.

7. Fixed a mistake where 2:04-2:27 of "Thrice Welcome" was listed as "The Politicians of Lake-town" instead of "Lake-town"

8. Notated the Bilbo's Adventure Theme variant in "Barrels out of Bond" as "(Heroic Variation)", because it is the same variant as 2 unreleased cues from AUJ (see BloodBoal's post here)

9. Added "House of Durin" to "The White Council" at 3:00-3:32, because I think it is that, which Barnald pointed out here

10. Changed 0:41-0:48 of "Quest for Erebor" from DOS to be "House Of Durin (Final 4 notes only)" instead of Smaug's A Theme, per recent discussion in the TBOTFA score thread. This point is still very much open for debate!

If anybody does any listens to the first two OSTs again soon, feel free to do it while reading along with the theme list and let us know if there are any points worth discussing!

[Doo_liss 6,561]

I think there is a statement of a Ring theme (sounds more like Evil but History would seem to make more sense) at 1:37 of Inside Information, not sure.

[Jay 39,661]

I think there is a statement of a Ring theme ( sounds more like Evil but History would seem to make more sense) at 1:37, not sure.

1:37 of what?

[BloodBoal 7,541]

8. Notated the Bilbo's theme variant in "Barrels out of Bond" as "(Heroic Variation)", because it is the same variant as 2 unreleased cues from AUJ (see BloodBoal's post here)

I completely forgot I mentioned that theme/variation of a theme. Listening to all the statements, it reminded me how nice this one is! I hope Shore used it in the third score!

I think there is a statement of a Ring theme ( sounds more like Evil but History would seem to make more sense) at 1:37, not sure.

1:37 of what?

Hahaha! Typical Fal!

[Doo_liss 6,561]

I got busy editing a part of the post I forgot to finish the post!

Fixed.

[Jay 39,661]

Yea, that part of Inside Information is when Bilbo puts the ring on, so HOTR would make sense I guess, but I think it's not close enough to be considered a true statement of the theme. Seems like Shore just used the first 2 notes then did his own thing

[Doo_liss 6,561]

8. Notated the Bilbo's theme variant in "Barrels out of Bond" as "(Heroic Variation)", because it is the same variant as 2 unreleased cues from AUJ (see BloodBoal's post here)

I completely forgot I mentioned that theme/variation of a theme. Listening to all the statements, it reminded me how nice this one is! I hope Shore used it in the third score!

I am going to say he did (in one of the samples), KK. disagrees.

[Jay 39,661]

BTW, I know I need to categorize much of "Barrels Out Of Bond" as a new theme now, since it turned up in the BOFA samples, but I dunno what to call it yet!

... and I still don't know how to correctly identify and catalog this "Bilbo's Burglar Theme" / "Thorin's Pride" / "Weakness and Redemption" / "Thranduil's Theme" / "Thorin's hatred of Elves" stuff.

.... and also per recent discussion, how to correlate the "Thrain's Theme" in "On The Doorstep" with "Dwarf Lords"...

...and the 0:41-0:48 of "Quest of Erebor" with 1:46-2:22 of "Mirkwood" stuff.... (that supposedly also turns up in BOFA samples)....

Anybody know why Doug never posts here any more?

[KK 3,308]

After the AUJ fiasco, Doug probably learnt it's best to refrain from feeding the flames and providing ambiguous answers and just wait till everyone can grasp the full picture at the end, at which he will be at more liberty to clear doubts and speak more openly about it.

And yes, as Fal said, I'm not quite sold yet on the re-appearance of Bilbo's Adventure.

[BloodBoal 7,541]

LeBlanc, I think you should wait until the third OST and film are released before making any new update. I'm sure they will enlighten us on some thematic material.

[Incanus 5,818]

Anybody know why Doug never posts here any more?

Could it be because things tend to get a tad adversarial here when he does.

[BloodBoal 7,541]

It's his fault! He always tries to create dissent when it comes to identifying themes!

[Jay 39,661]

BTW, I want to bump up this old post I made, because of all the recent discussion of the "Dragon Sickness" theme being a major part of the BOFA score:

Dragon Sickness

DOS 2-04 1:57-2:10 - Thorin wants to head right into Erebor despite Bilbo wanting to wait for Gandalf

DOS 2-10 0:00-0:20 - Balin talks about a sickness lying on the treasure, and how it affected Thrain

DOS 2-10 2:00-2:37 - Smaug taunts Bilbo about what Thorin promised him in return for the Arkenstone

DOS 2-10 3:04-3:34 - Smaug says he is tempted to let Bilbo take the Arkenstone, in order to see it drive Thorin mad

DOS 2-12 0:14-0:24 - Thorin finds Bilbo, asks him whether he got the Arkenstone or not, Bilbo can see Thorin is going mad and doesn't give it to him

DOS 2-12 4:05-5:02 - Smaug begins mind games with Bilbo, who lies about being with dwarves (this takes place before the 2-10 appearances)

DOS 2-13 2:04-2:34 - Dunno, wasn't used in final cut

And thanks to BloodBoal's score restore videos, we know what the "My Armor Is Iron" appearance probably represented, so here's the list again, now in chronological order

DOS 2-04 1:57-2:10 - Thorin wants to head right into Erebor despite Bilbo wanting to wait for Gandalf

DOS 2-12 4:05-5:02 - Smaug begins mind games with Bilbo, who lies about being with dwarves

DOS 2-10 0:00-0:20 - Balin talks about a sickness lying on the treasure, and how it affected Thrain

DOS 2-10 2:00-2:37 - Smaug taunts Bilbo about what Thorin promised him in return for the Arkenstone

DOS 2-10 3:04-3:34 - Smaug says he is tempted to let Bilbo take the Arkenstone, in order to see it drive Thorin mad

DOS 2-12 0:14-0:24 - Thorin finds Bilbo, asks him whether he got the Arkenstone or not, Bilbo can see Thorin is going mad and doesn't give it to him

DOS 2-13 2:04-2:34 - Smaug says he'll pay Lake-town a visit because he knows the men there are in league with the dwarves

Bam.

[Doo_liss 6,561]

BTW, I know I need to categorize much of "Barrels Out Of Bond" as a new theme now, since it turned up in the BOFA samples, but I dunno what to call it yet!

BILBO SNEAKY.

[Incanus 5,818]

Bilbo The Liar, Bilbo the Thief!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,435]

The descendant of rats!

[Incanus 5,818]

You see Shore intimates in the Barrels out of Bond scene with this theme that Bilbo, the afore said descendant of rats, will eventually betray his stalwart dwarven friends. Such a despicable character but the theme is there to tell us already in DoS. Such clever planning.

[Doo_liss 6,561]

6. Removed "The Company's Adventure Theme" from being a separate theme, and recategorized those passages as being variants of "Bilbo's Adventure Theme", per discussion on page 17ish of this thread.

I still wonder where that string setting of the theme that I found goes.

[Jay 39,661]

Link?

[Doo_liss 6,561]

Since you are asking for a link, I assume I misunderstood what company theme you were referring to.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxQSwI5aPja9cWZ1ZEZDNmFFMk0/view?usp=sharing

[Jay 39,661]

Yea, you did misunderstand. I didn't change a thing about how that theme you are thinking of (the theme we have on the OST in "The Edge Of the Wild").

What I changed was the theme that plays in the tracks "The World Is Ahead" and "Erebor" that before yesterday I had listed as "The Company's Adventure Theme", but now I have listed as "Bilbo's Adventure Theme (Company Variant)", for lack of a better name.

Goddamn, I love that Company theme (the one in your video)

[Doo_liss 6,561]

!@#$%^&*, I love that Company theme (the one in your video)

Yeah.

I can't wait for your updated AUJ cue list btw, so I can clear some placement related things up with my edit (that bit particularly).

[Jay 39,661]

Well, good news for you, because I'm going to work on that this weekend. Actually, DOS cue list comes first, then updated AUJ.

[Doo_liss 6,561]

DOS cue list comes first, then updated AUJ.

......This post must look really silly coming right after I said "I can't wait for..."

[Doo_liss 6,561]

Just to let you know, the last appearance of Smaug's theme in My Armor Is Iron is at 4:41 to 4:48

[Jay 39,661]

Just to let you know, the last appearance of Smaug's theme in My Armor Is Iron is at 4:41 to 4:48

I think whatever you're grabbing times from is off, cause I have it listed as 4:35-4:44 and that's right. Though I suppose you could argue the final notes stretch out to 4:48 or so... but it definitely starts at 4:35.

EDIT: You know, listening more closely, I feel like the figure that plays from 4:35-4:48 is actually Smaug's A Theme morphing directly into Smaug's B Theme - that's pretty cool. Then the strings and choir continue the B theme all the way to the end of the track.

[Doo_liss 6,561]

1:06 of "Over Hill", Evil Times?

Thorin's Pride/Weakness and Redemption at 2:08 of "A Thunder Battle"?

Gollum's Menace at 0:22 of Brass Buttons?

6:59 of Brass Buttons, Thorin's Charge?

3:59 of A Good Omen, Gandalf's Theme B section?

[Incanus 5,818]

1:06 of "Over Hill", Evil Times?

Thorin's Pride/Weakness and Redemption at 2:08 of "A Thunder Battle"

Gollum's Menace at 0:22 of Brass Buttons

6:59 of Brass Buttons, Thorin's Charge?

4:00 of A Good Omen, Gandalf's Theme B section

I am not sure about the Evil Times in Over Hill. Not quite the same recognizable 4 chord phrase as in LotR.

Thorin's Pride/Weakness and Redemption in Thunder Battle is actually a likely candidate. It conincides with the stone giant crashing against the cliff and Thorin thinks Kili and the others are crushed and shouts in desparation and rushes to their aid.

Yes that seems like a rhythmic variant on Gollum's Menace at 0:22 of Brass Buttons

And yeap the Brass Button's contains oddly the Thorin's Charge/Recklesness/Misplaced Haughtiness theme when he berates the absent Bilbo who hears his words behind the tree. I do wonder what the significance of this musical idea is or indeed would have been if it had remained in the scores.

I am not quite sure on Gandalf's B theme in A Good Omen. I think the music from 3:28 onwards scores Thorin embracing Bilbo with the Bilbo's Adventure chords playing in the celli and violins much as in the opening of My Dear Frodo at 0:37. There is the fluttering flute passage for the departure of the eaglers before the celli line but it focuses on Thorin. Could it be some kind of embryonic version of The House of Durin? Sadly I still don't have the ability to invert ot retrograde or do any of those musical variations solely in my head to test would this be true. Humming doesn't cut it.

[BloodBoal 7,541]

1:06 of "Over Hill", Evil Times?

Nah.

Thorin's Pride/Weakness and Redemption at 2:08 of "A Thunder Battle"

I'd say no, but I always have a hard time spotting that theme, so what do I know?

Gollum's Menace at 0:22 of Brass Buttons

Yes. It always seemed obvious to me that it was this one. Didn't notice that LeBlanc didn't write that one down, though.

6:59 of Brass Buttons, Thorin's Charge?

Yes, it was already pointed out before (like a year or two ago!). Again, I didn't notice LeBlanc didn't write that one down, too.

4:00 of A Good Omen, Gandalf's Theme B section

Nah.

[Jay 39,661]

You know, I think based on Ravenhill that besides turning the melody from "barrels Out Of Bond" into a theme, I have to turn the melody from "An Ancient Enemy" into a theme as well.

What's a Tolkien-esque name for that war between the dwarves and orcs?

[Doo_liss 6,561]

A War of Vengeance: straight out of the appendices.

[BloodBoal 7,541]

You know what my propositions are!

[Barnald 403]

Very appropriate

[Doo_liss 6,561]

You know what my propositions are!

Knowing you its probably something like The House Of Azog or The Defiler Lords right?

[BloodBoal 7,541]

[Doo_liss 6,561]

Nah, that sounds like something TGP would come up with.

[Jay 39,661]

A War Of Vengeance would make so much more sense in the film world if they kept all the beheading and such from the appendix story in the films. Bah!

[KK 3,308]

You know, I think based on Ravenhill that besides turning the melody from "barrels Out Of Bond" into a theme, I have to turn the melody from "An Ancient Enemy" into a theme as well.

I'd disagree, even though others don't.

I view it more as a singular moment of allusion (you're not going to hear that theme anymore times than that). But the new burglar theme is used more in a motivic way, full with variation and everything!

[Doo_liss 6,561]

You know, I think based on Ravenhill that besides turning the melody from "barrels Out Of Bond" into a theme, I have to turn the melody from "An Ancient Enemy" into a theme as well.

I'd disagree, even though others don't.

I view it more as a singular moment of allusion

Sort of like the "theme" for the distrust of Boromir from the FOTR EE? (The Doors of Durin, The Fighting Uruk-Hai)

[BloodBoal 7,541]

Nah, that sounds like something TGP would come up with.

I see what you did there...

What about A Feud Long In The Making? Sounds fancy!

[Jay 39,661]

I view it more as a singular moment of allusion (you're not going to hear that theme anymore times than that).

So you disagree with me calling the "Moonlight Reveal" music a theme too?

[KK 3,308]

Yes! Didn't know you did that.

I compare it to little bits like the Tauriel healing music, the fireworks motif, the map motif, the legolas action bit. If you guys identify those as recurring themes, then chalk this one up there too. I'd give it a different label though, or group it separately.

The new burglar theme is part of a different group from those examples. It seems to have become a fully developong theme/motif of its own.

[BloodBoal 7,541]

OK, so we can consider something to be theme only if KK is OK with that?

[Jay 39,661]

Yes! Didn't know you did that.

I compare it to little bits like the Tauriel healing music, the fireworks motif, the map motif, the legolas action bit. If you guys identify those as recurring themes, then chalk this one up there too. I'd give it a different label though, or group it separately.

The new burglar theme is part of a different group from those examples. It seems to have become a fully developong theme/motif of its own.

You're correct, I do consider Tauriel healing, Fireworks, and The Heorics of Legolas as themes, yep!

As for the "map motif", are you referring to when Gandalf looks at the map in FOTR? Because when that gets reprised in "Old Friends" in AUJ, every version is different from each other! (Yet curiously, I never got around to adding it to the theme list!)