Star Wars is better than everything

[SilverTrumpet 638]

On 9/9/2020 at 5:23 PM, Chen G. said:

We know Lucas worked on VII with/for Disney early on: We know some of what he outlined for VII, which is honestly not far off of The Force Awakens. We know he worked on developing a Han Solo origin story. Between those, we're left with a third unknown concept, and according to Kennedy, neither of the three is a proper treatment. Bog Iger, too, refers to them as "outlines." For all we know, they could have been a couple of sentences each.

 

George Lucas didn't even bother writing three full treatments ahead of the prequel trilogy which (a) he intended to direct himself and (b) had a prefigured end-point as a result of being prequels. That he should chose to write three treatments for a trilogy he would proceed to have nothing to do with and which has no prefigured end-point is ludicrous.

 

Indeed, while we do know of Lucas' Episode VII, we do not know anything about his supposed treatments of VIII or IX. The only one suggesting that such treatments even exist is...George Lucas, who's a notoriously unreliable narrator.  I call bollocks.

 

Again, I'm not sure this is so accurate. During that creepy interview, he talked about how he wanted 7 to be an all new story and Disney wanted to do "a throwback film". I'm assuming that's the point where they probably got in a fight and parted ways. He seemed super pissed about that. 

 

I'm thinking more his Episode 7 was closer to Episode 8. Luke is away at the island and that's the jumping off point when a girl is sent after him and it unfolds from there. None of the third Death Star stuff, none of the mirroring A New Hope stuff. 

 

The Solo thing is interesting because from various interviews, Solo was a Lucas idea flat out. Kinda a Han version of Young Indy, and he personally asked Lawrence Kasdan to write it. 

3 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

I don't think Lucas intended to be involved beyond Episode VII except in an advisory position. He just helped get that one off of the ground. Kathleen Kennedy was already in charge at this point.

 

Remember that originally Kira (later Rey) found Luke somewhere halfway through the movie: not in VIII. There's no evidence that Lucas did any work for a storyline to VIII or IX.

 

Well, there's no evidence of that because he never made it that far. 

 

Was there that one interview where Kennedy called Lucas "keeper of the flame" or something? Like he was always going to stick around an be a sort of Star Wars encyclopedia and lore master or something?

[Chen G. 3,949]

24 minutes ago, SilverTrumpet said:

he was always going to stick around an be a sort of Star Wars encyclopedia and lore master or something?

 

Yes, but that's not the same as a "showrunner".

 

Beyond getting Episode VII off of the ground, Lucas intended to serve in a purely adivsory position on the sequel trilogy: not as the man in charge or even as a writer. The role of actually producing the trilogy was designated for Kathleen Kennedy very early on.

 

As it turns out, even the advisory position didn't stick because Disney did away with many of Lucas' ideas for VII (but not for VIII and IX, to which Lucas didn't have anything) and Lucas became angered.

 

Honestly, there's no one to blame but Lucas, both for selling the franchise, for the idea of a sequel trilogy (which Lucas had been rambling abou on-off since 1979, possibly as a publicity stunt) and for not offering Disney storylines that were actually worth their while.

 

Even without the addition of Starkiller Base or hidden plans inside a droid, Lucas' idea of a young orphan (Kira/Rey) going on a quest to find a recluse Jedi master is already plenty derivative of Star Wars. Between that and Solo (zzzz...) it is Lucas who set the Disney-era Star Wars films on the path to incessant references to what came before. I also seem to remember making the villain a Solo, again derivative of Anakin, was Lucas'.

[SilverTrumpet 638]

I swore they explicitly said the treatments were 7-9, not 7 and maybe Solo and mystery.

 

I do know John Knoll had been pitching Rogue One for years. Maybe that was another one at some point. Though that one even through most of its production is nothing like it was originally going to be.

 

Here we go:

 

https://www.ign.com/articles/2013/03/07/lucas-began-new-star-wars-trilogy-before-selling-to-disney

 

"He even went so far as to begin formal discussions with stars Mark Hamill, Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher about returning to the series that made them famous and crafting treatments for the next trilogy with screenwriter Michael Arndt and consultant and Star Wars vet Lawrence Kasdan before even agreeing to show the Disney brass the rough outlines for Star Wars: Episode VII, VIII and IX."

[Chen G. 3,949]

34 minutes ago, SilverTrumpet said:

"He even went so far as to begin formal discussions with stars Mark Hamill, Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher about returning to the series that made them famous and crafting treatments for the next trilogy with screenwriter Michael Arndt and consultant and Star Wars vet Lawrence Kasdan before even agreeing to show the Disney brass the rough outlines for Star Wars: Episode VII, VIII and IX.

 

And do we have any confirmation of this? No.

 

There's no logic, certainly on Lucas' part, in sketching these films out the way he claims he had. He only sketched out VII because he actually worked on that movie directly. We have nothing on his supposed VIII and IX, which I find terribly convenient.

[mstrox 6,651]

Lucas and LFL both have explicitly stated that he had outlined/done treatments for a new trilogy, in addition to "some other stories."  One of those stories had something to do with a young Han Solo according to Lawrence Kasdan, although I've never seen anything indicate that the finished Solo: A Star Wars Story had anything to do with Lucas' sketches.  We also know that an entire series of a live action Star Wars show was overseen by Lucas and written by a team that included Ron Moore (BSG) and shelved due to cost - so Disney has those scripts, should they want to utilize them.

 

The making-of material for The Force Awakens, such as the "Art of" book, references this stuff because that outline was part of the creation process of that film.  Material for TLJ and TROS don't mention Lucas' treatments, presumably because they used nothing from Lucas's work, instead taking inspiration from The Force Awakens and its characters, loose ends, etc.  That doesn't mean the treatments don't exist.

[Chen G. 3,949]

26 minutes ago, mstrox said:

Lucas and LFL both have explicitly stated that he had outlined/done treatments for a new trilogy

 

Again, Lucas is a terribly unreliable narrator, to the point that it would be incredibly naive to believe a single word coming out of his mouth. If he was the weatherman and predicted snow, I'd pull out a pair of speedos and go to the beach.

 

That nothing about/from Lucas "treatments" for VIII and IX ever surfaced (as opposed to, say, Trevorrow's script) I view as terribly convenient. Lucas is the only one saying they existed.

 

Why would Lucas' write three treatments ahead of a trilogy he was to have nothing further to do with? Even the prequel trilogy, which he helmed from start to finish, didn't have three treatments lined-up.

[SilverTrumpet 638]

18 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Why would Lucas' write three treatments ahead of a trilogy he was to have nothing further to do with? 

 

Because he was probably going to be more involved until he had his big dramatic breakup with Disney. 

[Chen G. 3,949]

There was never any talk of him being involved in VIII or IX beyond an advisory capacity. And, again, the prequel trilogy had a prefigured ending, by dint of being prequels, and even that trilogy didn't have three treatments lined-up: why would he bother with this one? It makes NO sense.

 

Between that and having to trust Lucas on his word, I'd rather not buy into this. Kathleen Kennedy's explanation makes a hell of a lot more sense. I call bullshit on the idea of Lucas-penned treatments for all three film.

[blondheim 1,157]

People like Mark Hamill and James Cameron have made passing comments over the years about how his sequel trilogy ideas would have been very next-level, in their opinion. We know he was planning on dissecting the spiritual science of the midi-chlorians and the Whills were something we also know he wanted developed more but past Awakens, he had almost no involvement at all. Everyone's stories of the two sequels to Awakens confirms this. There may have been phone calls, or e-mails sent with suggestions based on something he had just seen that they sent him for advice, but not much more.

 

However, I am sure what Lawrence Kasdan did on Solo is similar to what Lucas wanted. They were long-time associates. Even if the exact plotting wasn't Lucas-approved, Solo can be looked at as probably quite similar to the spirit and tone of what he would have created. It was also the most critically panned of the new movies, which tracks. Lucas' involvement has seemed to spell certain doom for Star Wars since the mid-90s . It took the fad of internet memes to save public perception of the prequel trilogy, even among fans.

[SilverTrumpet 638]

Solo is easily my favorite of the Disney Wars movies.

 

They did say Lucas "directed" one scene there. That part where Han is in Lando's closet with Emilia Clarke Lucas said to have Han take the clothes from her and drop it behind him without looking. That is a very Lucas-y thing.

[Chen G. 3,949]

12 minutes ago, blondheim said:

We know he was planning on dissecting the spiritual science of the midi-chlorians and the Whills were something we also know he wanted developed more

 

We only know this from Lucas, who - again - should never be taken on his word.

[blondheim 1,157]

No, I mean that Cameron and Hamill have mentioned those two things specifically. Neither seems like someone who would be fed a line either. The point I was trying to make was that Lucas had no treatments really for the sequel trilogy as a whole, just nebulous concepts.

[Chen G. 3,949]

Whatever Hamil said about the sequel trilogy sounds like part conjecture. As far as I'm aware Cameron didn't say anything about Lucas concept for the sequel trilogy. Rather, that Lucas' idea for the trilogy was to do with the Whills is what Lucas told Cameron on camera for James Cameron's Story of Science Fiction, which was in 2018. Its not like Lucas is above lying to his friends: see him bullshitting to Spielberg about how he has three Indy stories ready for him to the direct.

 

The whole Whill thing sounds like bollocks. I don't doubt Lucas would have namedropped them (a-la Midichlorians in Episode I) but to suggest he'd actually construct the narrative around them? Classic Lucas affectation.

 

 

[blondheim 1,157]

The Whills are a concept that we know he invented way back in the Expanded Universe. A concept that other writers had their way with with him as a consulting editor. The lore around them is no longer canon and the new lore is obviously being developed without him, a la the Mandalorians. So I agree with you: past their conception, I don't think he contributed much or really ever intended to at any time.

 

And you are probably correct about Cameron having that said to him, I may have been misremembering. I can't find any evidence otherwise. It is easy for Lucas to talk about what he would have done in 2018 after someone else is almost finished doing what they've done. I wish he had put as much effort into Star Wars' image as he puts into himself.

[Chen G. 3,949]

2 minutes ago, blondheim said:

It is easy for Lucas to talk about what he would have done in 2018 after someone else is almost finished doing what they've done.

 

Precisely.

 

That he said what he said after the fact only makes his argument read as all the more phoney.

[blondheim 1,157]

The irony of his conversation with Cameron for me is that they direct the same kinds of movies, the same way, to about the same level of artistic success. Loved by the masses, but little if any depth or originality. The best Cameron film is The Terminator, because it was still early enough on that he was trying to do something new, to impress us (story-wise, at least.) They are all popcorn blockbusters and/or guilty pleasures, Terminator included, that is just the most interesting thing he specifically has ever done. By no means is that film a masterpiece. Much of Lucas' work is the same imo. They both make it seem like the film is their complete vision in the way that a film is Guillermo Del Toro's vision, to pick someone with obvious and recognizable style. The most recognizable thing about both of their films are tired cliches and story tropes and very flashy mediocrity. Superfans of theirs get under my skin. When someone tells me they prefer Aliens to Alien, for example, I immediately know what kind of person they are and we will most likely not agree on much.

[Chen G. 3,949]

Cameron is in a completely different league to Lucas.

 

If you look at Star Wars from a directorial standpoint, its a very plainly photographed, mediocrely-acted kids' movie. The most impressive things Lucas does directorially are a handful of arresting images (the opening shot, Vader's entrance and the twin sunsets) and the sense of speed he gives to the spaceships during the action setpieces. He's always been good with capturing speed on film, but that alone doesn't make for a particularly good director.

 

Otherwise, its really the story (not to mention the production value) that makes it what it is; and even in that department, its more than a little bit twee.

[blondheim 1,157]

I didn't say Cameron and Lucas were of the same quality level in terms of directing, merely that they make the same kind of shallow glitz.

[Chen G. 3,949]

I don't need much by way of "meaning" in my films: I'm looking for catharsis. Its a primarily dramatic medium rather than a didactic one.

 

Cameron, at his best, provides much better catharsis than Lucas, mostly because his films pack more of a punch.

[Edmilson 7,436]

Liam Neeson: ‘Star Wars’ Backlash Robbed Jar Jar Binks Actor of Becoming Next Eddie Murphy

 

Sometimes I wonder if working in a Star Wars movie is more of a curse than a blessing for one's career.

[Arpy 4,145]

https://screenrant.com/mandalorian-season-2-jedi-galaxy-timeline-unknown-reason/?utm_source=SR-FB-P&utm_medium=Social-Distribution&utm_campaign=SR-FB-P

 

Why does the Galaxy forget about the Jedi so soon after Revenge of the Sith? This inconsistency has always bugged me.

[Pellaeon 593]

Maybe it’s just a matter of proportion. Maybe it’s not as if everybody had interactions with Jedi even before Order 66. It’s a huge galaxy with tens of billions of habitable planets, right? And the PT shows what, 20 Jedi? 200? And we only got to see all of them because, well, we were watching a movie that followed them.

[Chen G. 3,949]

6 hours ago, Arpy said:

Why does the Galaxy forget about the Jedi so soon after Revenge of the Sith? This inconsistency has always bugged me.

 

Because in the original Star Wars the fall of the Republic was clearly set much, much further in the past.

 

It also means Ben is much older (appropriately for the casting of Sir Alec) in that film. Nowadays, we're meant to believe he's a mere 57-year-old in Star Wars.

[crumbs 14,313]

It's not that big a plot hole really. Imperial propaganda would've painted the Jedi as irrelevant sorcerers for decades. Didn't they have control over most of the galaxy at the height of the Empire?

[Chen G. 3,949]

Its a big plothole not because you can't find ways around it, but because you the viewer intuitively know its a plothole and must find ways around it (or live with it, like I do).

 

When I first watched Star Wars, I had already seen the prequel trilogy, and it was instinctivelly clear to me that the film was concieved with an entirely different continuity in mind.

 

Almost every frame of the movie screams this, even the clothes that every other Star Wars movie wants you to believe are Jedi robes are clearly just Tatooine attire.

 

Its especially egregious when you hear Lucas talk about how its all actually "one movie." The man's full of shit.

[Arpy 4,145]

The only thing that could rectify this is if Palpatine conducted a Sith ritual to cloud the minds of everyone in the galaxy following the Purge. Thousands of years of history with the Jedi's involvement in socio-political affairs, the emergence of Force Sensitive children around the galaxy and the fact that planets saved by them during the Clone Wars is all too much for mere Imperial propaganda to dispel in less than 30 years! Not to forget, Palpatine formed the Galactic Empire by framing the Jedi.

[Chen G. 3,949]

1 minute ago, Arpy said:

to dispel in less than 30 years!

 

Isn't it a mere 19 years, per Revenge of the Sith?

[Holko 9,525]

Secrets only the Sith knew!

[Arpy 4,145]

Palpatine was clouding the minds of the Jedi leading up to the Clone Wars, so it would only make sense that as his powers grew, so too did his influence over the Galaxy.

 

Or Lucas couldn't write around that giant hole!

[Chen G. 3,949]

6 minutes ago, Arpy said:

Or Lucas couldn't write around that giant hole!

 

Indeed he couldn't. The same goes for Leia having memories of Natalie Portman.

 

Also, if Leia is Luke's sister, why is Yoda so cavalier about the possibility of her death, and so against Luke going to save her? For all he knows, there wouldn't be "another hope" if Luke hadn't gone to save her.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,892]

4 minutes ago, Holko said:

Secrets only the Sith knew!

 

Anyone else find it odd that Merry was giving Sith exposition throughout the film? I think he's the true Sith lord pulling Palpy's strings!

[Chen G. 3,949]

1 minute ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

Anyone else find it odd

 

I find every frame of that movie to be odd.

[Arpy 4,145]

2 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

 

Anyone else find it odd that Merry was giving Sith exposition throughout the film? I think he's the true Sith lord pulling Palpy's strings!

I found it annoying a cameo extra was given so much screentime. Nothing againt Monaghan, but it's so distracting. 

[Manakin Skywalker 4,892]

4 minutes ago, Arpy said:

I found it annoying a cameo extra was given so much screentime. Nothing againt Monaghan, but it's so distracting. 

 

They're just setting up episode X where it is revealed that he was the true villain the whole time.

[Arpy 4,145]

See, no one remembers the Jedi, but they know legends of the fucking Sith?

[Holko 9,525]

Uhhhh well that is because, naturally, Merry's a historian character.

[Arpy 4,145]

He was there, 3000 years ago...

[Chen G. 3,949]

40 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

They're just setting up episode X where it is revealed that he was the true villain the whole time.

When/if X-XII happen, I wonder if geezer Lucas will still claim he wrote stories for all of those.

[Arpy 4,145]

I doubt he wrote full stories, but he definitely provided rough treatments, probably a list of ideas he wrote in his ruled notepad.

[Chen G. 3,949]

He didn’t; he just said he did.

[Arpy 4,145]

Kasdan, Abrams Kennedy and several concept artists have said Lucas did provide rough plans of things he wanted. 

[Chen G. 3,949]

He did: FOR EPISODE VII, because for a while he was the one making it.

 

Curious that nothing ever surfaced about Lucas’ “plans” for VIII or IX, don’t you think? In fact, Kathleen Kennedy explicitly said he left NOTHING for those. He just says he did.

 

The man is a big <insert derogatory but anatomically-correct term here> liar. I don’t believe a single word he says.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

You don't believe him when he says he directed Star Wars?

[Chen G. 3,949]

I do, but I don't believe nearly anything he said about making that film. Everything he says about the film sounds like an affectation.

 

I had the displeasure of watching Nolan interview Lucas, and it was basically an hour of Lucas glorifying his own film ad nauseam (with Nolan, being both tactful and a huge fan, letting him have at it). There was the usual stuff about him having always wanted to superimpose a stop-motion creature into the Jabba scene in 1976 (bullshit, Jabba was a human in the script) and so forth; and then there was new bullshit like:

 

Quote

I'm only going to do shots that are only about, y'know, twelve frames, thirty-two frames at the most. [...] I didn't hold on my matte-paintings.[...]matte-paintings cost so much money that its inevitable that the studio and the director want to put it on there for a long time[...]I said, no, no, no; and everybody else went crazy. They said: "you put all that money into a matte-painting, and you literally let it be on there for [...]thirty-two frames." [...] I said: "I'm gonna assume that we've been here." This is just like shooting Batman. You know what New York looks like. [...] So I didn't stop for anything. [...] I said, "y'know, Death Star, we've all seen a Death Star, here's a Death Star." You don't have to linger on it; as if it were the Empire State building. [...] but it works because that's why a lot of people went back and said: "we couldn't get it all in the first time." Someone said: "my gosh, that's so fast. The pace is so fast!"

 

No special effects shot in Star Wars is that short. The reveal of the Death Star, for instance, is around five seconds, so roughly 120 frames. The kind of stuff Lucas is talking about would border on the subliminal. He just made a terse, fast-paced movie in the tradition of Bullitt and Jaws; no need to present it as though it was some cinema verite artistic statement. Its not even that fast-paced! Its honestly quite a leisurely movie: it takes 43 minutes before Luke decides to join Ben.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,520]

Poor Mr. Lucas. He lived long enough to see himself become the villain.

[Chen G. 3,949]

Didn't have to live very long.

 

Lucas started bullshitting about his own work circa 1977-1978, so just when it became a success. What, during development, was described as a simple "Western in outer space" now became a "modern mythology"; the henchman, who is described in the script as simply wearing a black spacesuit, was now a victim of falling into a volcano; and what was a film with maybe a prospect for a sequel or two became - per Lucasfilm -  the first "of twelve stories George Lucas [already] wrote in The Adventures of Luke Skywalker"; and of course there's the "my next film will be an experimental art film" bollocks that he's been saying SINCE 1974.

 

So he was already talking off his arse. I actually expected him to mellow down now that he's effectivelly retired and no longer creativelly associated with Star Wars, but nope.

[mstrox 6,651]

Chen is there any bone in your body that might believe that there is no conspiracy here, and that nobody is lying when George Lucas, Kathleen Kennedy, Lawrence Kasden, Pablo Hidalgo, etc. all consistently indicate that Lucas outlined a whole trilogy prior to the sale?

[Arpy 4,145]

Lucas has no reason to lie about this, all parties involved (for a time) were happily working with Lucas before the switcheroo of directors and the films went in wildly different directions. 

[Chen G. 3,949]

George Lucas doesn’t have a reason to lie about anything, and yet he lies about everything. The "I've written treatments for the entire trilogy in advance" is one of his more usual schticks, having said it (falsely) for the classic trilogy and the prequel trilogy. So excuse me for not buying it for the third time.

 

Kathleen Kennedy explicitly stated he wrote nothing for VIII or IX. The only one saying he did is George Lucas.

[Sweeping Strings 2,358]

14 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Didn't have to live very long.

 

Lucas started bullshitting about his own work circa 1977-1978, so just when it became a success. What, during development, was described as a simple "Western in outer space" now became a "modern mythology"; the henchman, who is described in the script as simply wearing a black spacesuit, was now a victim of falling into a volcano; and what was a film with maybe a prospect for a sequel or two became - per Lucasfilm -  the first "of twelve stories George Lucas [already] wrote in The Adventures of Luke Skywalker"; and of course there's the "my next film will be an experimental art film" bollocks that he's been saying SINCE 1974.

 

So he was already talking off his arse. I actually expected him to mellow down now that he's effectivelly retired and no longer creativelly associated with Star Wars, but nope.

The 'art film' thing is a hoot ... he didn't even direct again after the first Star Wars until the prequel trilogy, 22 years later (and may not even have bothered doing those without the advent of CGI) and he hasn't since. It's all been writing, producing and 'consulting', none of which has been done for what you'd call 'experimental art films'.