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Presumed Innocent Synth


A24

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  • 5 months later...

The "End Title" has synths all over it. I like it. The DX7 seems an obvious guess, or something by Akai, perhaps. it sounds definitely digital, and not analog, so I'd be inclined to rule-out stuff like the Prophet V, the Quadra, or the Juno, or the Jupiter, or the Arp.

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The "End Title" has synths all over it. I like it. The DX7 seems an obvious guess, or something by Akai, perhaps. it sounds definitely digital, and not analog, so I'd be inclined to rule-out stuff like the Prophet V, the Quadra, or the Juno, or the Jupiter, or the Arp.

JD-800, D50, Ensoniq Mirage, Elka Synthex, Kurzweil K250, Oberheim Xpander/Matrix 12 are all possible candidates.

I love it when you talk dirty!

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Changed the dead link to a working one. It's the synth in the beginning of the track that plays the theme. It seems to be doubled with a harp (not sure if it's a real harp). It's not a JD-800. I think it's something very expensive. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's a synclavier. The female voice (ish) sound in the main titles is a synclavier too, I think.

synclavier_angle_lg_zps204a7597.jpg

Alex

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Again-- Johnny's used it before?

Maybe it's the Polymoog or Memorymoog? But yes, I do get a Taurus vibe from it.


The more I thinking about it, the Memorymoog seems likelier. It was released in '82 and had 18 oscillators. It would certainly be capable of the massive sound in ROTJ, and more.

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So Alex, what do you think are the synths being used in JURASSIC PARK?

BTW, I mentioned the Ensoniq Mirage and Oberheim Xpander because two patches for them were written out by Williams in THE WITCHES OF EASTWICK ('Voices 2000' in The Destruction of Darryl and EMPIRE OF THE SUN ('Xpander Strings' in Cadillac of the Skies).

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I rarely listen to JP but I would guess (without knowing what tracks or cues you refer to) that it's some kind of workstation or at least a synth with sampled waveforms.

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Well, for starters.

A friend who had a formidable knowledge about synths (collected and reviewed them for Melody Maker) said it was probably a MIDI stack (several patches layered on top of each other), which apparently was popular at the time, but no mention of any specific synths.

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Yes, 'stacking' was very popular in the '90s. It makes it difficult to distinguish them. Plus, I wouldn't be able to recognize the many different workstations from that time. I did recognize some old Hans Zimmer samples (Hans Zimmer Guitars Vol. 1) in Munich.

Alex

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Accidental Synthist

Black Synthday

I find that Williams' use of synthesizers has always been very much to enchance the orchestra and achieve certain unique sounds to blend with the orchestral feel that could quite not be reached by the organic acoustic instruments. Williams has often mentioned how he uses the synth sounds to enhance the already existing orchestral timbre for example. In this regard he is much more conservative than say Goldsmith who used synths as an almost equal partner to the orchestra, sometimes even the dominant sound.

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Jerry was far more willing to experiment with them.

Yeah he was in general more technologically savvy with synths and computers etc. The blend of old school craftsmanship and skill and his spirit of technological invention/experimentation was an interesting combination. It would have been interesting to see if Goldsmith would have adapted to the modern tech or reverted back to the more traditional orchestral writing if he had been allowed to compose for another decade.

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One thing that interests me is how JW allowed synths to play a more prominent role in his scores of the 1990s. Since then he's relegated them more to orchestral backing, as Incanus described. Do we think this was due to temp tracks/demands of directors in the 90s? Or was he just experimenting? Also, do any of his concert works use synths at all?

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it doesn't sound like one of the straight factory sounds. It's just got that very clear D50 sample that is in pizzagogo...i can't remember its been years . Basically on d50 the oscillators use actual samples of audio waveforms mixed in with some digital. It's a very popular synth technique and it has THAT sound to it. It doesn't to my ears sound like FM ( DX7 ) or the pricey fast fourier transfer machines like the GDS and Syncalvier. I know williams was fond of the D50 so...and it reminds me of that texture...but this is all guesswork.

it could be a KORGm1 too ! It was a 1990 movie so these where the big machines then. It's obviously a polyphonic synth because of the decay of the notes and it's too close a sound acoustically to be totally synthesised. The syncalvier then was monophonic for samples ( unless you has $100,000 lying around ) and you would hear aliasing and formant shifting.....which you don't .....so

1. sample based but hybrid

2. polyphonic

3. programable without a NASA tech standing by

4. reliable on the soundstage

5. portable

6. used frequently in the composers scores and popular with his fav session players.

i give you: Roland D50...or Korg M1

t

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it doesn't sound like one of the straight factory sounds. It's just got that very clear D50 sample that is in pizzagogo...i can't remember its been years . Basically on d50 the oscillators use actual samples of audio waveforms mixed in with some digital. It's a very popular synth technique and it has THAT sound to it. It doesn't to my ears sound like FM ( DX7 ) or the pricey fast fourier transfer machines like the GDS and Syncalvier. I know williams was fond of the D50 so...and it reminds me of that texture...but this is all guesswork.

it could be a KORGm1 too ! It was a 1990 movie so these where the big machines then. It's obviously a polyphonic synth because of the decay of the notes and it's too close a sound acoustically to be totally synthesised. The syncalvier then was monophonic for samples ( unless you has $100,000 lying around ) and you would hear aliasing and formant shifting.....which you don't .....so

1. sample based but hybrid

2. polyphonic

3. programable without a NASA tech standing by

4. reliable on the soundstage

5. portable

6. used frequently in the composers scores and popular with his fav session players.

i give you: Roland D50...or Korg M1

t

Cheers. You're clearly a synth/studio guru, I'm just a noob.

Do you recognise any M1/D50 in later scores like JP, SLEEPERS and TLW? Also, any thoughts on ROTJ example I posted - does it sound like a Moog w/MXR phaser?

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is that herrmann's psycho motif ?

No, the PSYCHO motif is F-Eb-D whereas this is Bb-Db-E (a diminished chord), though it does contain an 014 with E-G-Eb.

it does sound like a moog....and yes thats a flanger.....

Any idea with model? i.e. Memorymoog, Polymoog, Minimoog, Modular etc. How many oscillators - are they detuned? Saw waves and sine below (like a subbass)? LP filter cutoff? Resonance?

Very similar sound here at 2:52, though in this case it's played by an Arp 2600.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CLDHWPFjl0

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almost certain it's a Roland D50. It's a sample based hybrid synth. Very popular .

T

For which score? Legend?! Presumed Innocent? If you're referring to the latter, I had a D-50 and I'm certain it's a Synclavier (that odd bell-ish piano and female voice). The only sound that I don't recognize is the harp sample underneath it. It could be the Synclavier too since it was a sampler as well as a digital synthesizer. The sound is too FM (like the Yamaha DX7) sounding for it to be a D-50.

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yamaha GS1

Hi

I'm sorry I don't agree. of course i'm only guessing but. I used a synclavier a bit back in the eighties. They are two things. A sampler ( monophonic ) and a 32 sine wave synth. It's FFT not FM. FM was used in DX7's ( again this doesn't sound like that as it's too warm....a guess again ! ) It could be one of the very large prototypes for a DX7. Like The GS1. Basically all presets but made with a larger configuration of DX7 components for a much richer sound. Vangelis loved his. But again this was a big machine and popular in the early eighties. By 1990 the Korg M1 and the Roland D50 where king. It doesn't sound like a sample to me. Certainly NOT monophonic. The decay gives THAT away. It sounds synthetic. But very well made. So unless you know HIS keyboard player of choice used synclaviers ( and some did , though i've never seen a synclavier marked in one of his scores and I know he used Roland d50's a lot.....Korg m1's less.....they where Goldsmith's Favourite . All over Total Recall ) i'd still guess it was either a korg or a d50. Nothing in the sound is unlikely on either of those machines. However if you recognise the sounds AS a synclavier preset then i stand corrected.

but it's still a guess.

t

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well.....not really. It was in the prototype . But the model everyone bought was the Synclavier II. This had a type of FM as an option. FM just means frequency modulation. The system that ended up in DX7's was Patented by it's inventor Dr Chowning. This was I believe was exclusive to yamaha. Any synth can do FM but the technique of using operators and carriers ( limited to six sine wave generators ) is unique to Yamaha (at that time )

The synth section of the Synclavier really relied on an additive engine. This was the same technology as the GDS, Fairlight, and a few others. It was the NEW thing !!! The idea was you could sample a sound then use the computer to model it in the additive engine....then manipulate it.....nice idea....never really worked though. Still very sexy beast...

T

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It used FM, additive and resynthesis and I think it's in that direction that we need to look (as opposed to analog synthesis or sampled waveforms). I have a few sampled Synclavier sounds that kinda are reminiscent of the sounds you hear on Presumed Innocent.

Could it be an ordinary DX7?

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is that herrmann's psycho motif ?

No, the PSYCHO motif is F-Eb-D whereas this is Bb-Db-E (a diminished chord), though it does contain an 014 with E-G-Eb.

it does sound like a moog....and yes thats a flanger.....

Any idea with model? i.e. Memorymoog, Polymoog, Minimoog, Modular etc. How many oscillators - are they detuned? Saw waves and sine below (like a subbass)? LP filter cutoff? Resonance?

Very similar sound here at 2:52, though in this case it's played by an Arp 2600.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CLDHWPFjl0

ahh....fooled....

synth sounds are so close when its jsut a buzz like that...anyone of those machines could have done it TBH....

even my synth:

T

Goldsmith loved synths. I'm going through the Star Trek TMP score now and he even asks for a buchla !!!...not for the fainthearted

t

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Could it be an ordinary DX7?

No, I have a DX7 and the PRESUMED INNOCENT sound is way too warm to be that.

BTW T, Randy Kerber has been Williams's synth player since the 80s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randy_Kerber

Here's some credits of his that list the gear. Kerber's highlighted, along with a few other familiar names, like Williams's regular percussion guy Mike Fisher.

Melissa Manchester's Emergency (1983) produced by the legendary Arif Mardin.

A5 Emergency (5:13)

Arranged By, Synthesizer [Fairlight] - Arif Mardin

Geri Vokal - Robin Beck , Will Lee

Bass - Nathan East

Drums - Carlos Vega

Electric Piano, Synthesizer [Mini Moog, Jupiter] - Robbie Buchanan

Guitar - Dean Parks

Programmed By [Fairlight] - Craig Siegel

Synthesizer [Fairlight] - Randy Kerber

B1 The End Of The Affair (4:42)

Arranged By, Synthesizer [Additional] - Arif Mardin

Arranged By, Synthesizer, Piano - Robbie Buchanan

Geri Vokal - Marcy Levy , Margaret Dorn , Millie Whiteside

Drums - Carlos Vega

Programmed By [Fairlight] - Craig Siegel

Synthesizer [Fairlight] - Randy Kerber

Jay Gruska - One of Us (1984).

A2 Atlanta Calling

Arranged By – Jay Gruska

Backing Vocals – Jay Gruska, Joseph Williams, Nick Uhrig

Bass – Mike Porcaro

Drums – Carlos Vega

Guitar – Michael Landau Percussion – Michael Fisher

Synthesizer [Jupiter 8] – Randy Kerber

Synthesizer [Wave, Prophet 5] – Michael Omartian

Synthesizer [Yamaha G S I] – Jay Gruska, Randy Kerber

Written-By – Jay Gruska, Michael Landau, Roy Freeland

B4 Circus

Arranged By – Jay Gruska

Bass – Mike Porcaro

Bells [& Piatti] – Michael Fisher

Choir [brat Choir] – Barbara Gruska, Bill Mumy, Debbie Shapiro, Jenny Gruska, Michelle Gruska, Paul Gordon (3), Tanya Wolf

Drums – Doane Perry

Guitar – Michael Landau

Programmed By [Fairlight] – Craig Siegel

Programmed By [simmons Drum] – John Gilston

Synthesizer [Fairlight C M I, Yamaha C P 70] – Randy Kerber

Synthesizer [Fairlight C M I], Electronic Drums [simmons Marching Drum] – Jay Gruska

Written-By – Jay Gruska, Paul Gordon (3)

A3 Tattoo

Backing Vocals – Jay Gruska, Joseph Williams, Nick Uhrig

Bass – Mike Porcaro

Drum Programming [Linn Drum], Synthesizer [Prophet] – Jay Gruska

Guitar – Tony Berg

Percussion – Michael Fisher

Synthesizer [Memory Moog, Jupiter 8] – Jay Gruska, Randy Kerber

Written-By, Arranged By – Jay Gruska, Tony Berg

Peabo Bryson - Straight from the Heart (1984)

B2 Learning The Ways Of Love

Arranged By [Rhythm Tracks] – Gene Page

Arranged By [strings], Conductor – Lee Holdridge

Backing Vocals – Debra Thomas*, Richard Marx

Bass – Neil Stubenhaus

Drums – Carlos Vega

Guitar – Paul Jackson Jr.

Piano, Synthesizer [Yamaha Dx7] – Randy Kerber

Producer, Written-by, Arranged By [Rhythm Tracks] – Michael Masser

Written-By – Gerry Goffin

Barry Manilow - Manilow (1985)

"If You Were Here With Me Tonight", 1985 Cityscape Music (ASCAP), Townsway Music (BMI); Engineered by Tommy Vicari & Erik Zobler; Mixed by Tommy Vicari; Production Assistant to George Duke - Alice Murrell; String Arrangement by George Del Barrio; Contractor - Bill Hughes; Acoustic Piano, Yamaha TX-8 - Randy Kerber; Lead Guitar - Michael Landau; Acoustic and Rhythm Guitar - Paul Jackson, Jr.; Bass - "Ready" Freddy Washington; Drums - John Robinson; Synclavier II - George Duke; Strings Recorded at Cherokee Studios, Los Angeles; Assistant Engineer at Lionshare - Khaliq Glover; Recorded at Lionshare Recording (Los Angeles) and Le Gonks West (Los Angeles); Mixed at Lionshare Recording (Los Angeles)

Recurring synths: Fairlight, Jupiter 8, Memorymoog, DX7, GS1, CP70 and TX-8 (?),

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