General Harmony/Orchestration/Theory Questions

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

It comes from Debussy and Ravel, right?

Mmm. Or Koechlin or Milhaud.

Goddammit. Why can't someone publish Koechlin's music?

IMSLP has some but I'm pretty sure none of it is orchestral. Frustrating as hell.

[RedBard 71]

But of course. Well, his estate's gotta make money somehow.

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

It's not that. A lot of his music just isn't really available anywhere.

[RedBard 71]

My hypothesis (given with a bucket of salt) is that as a composer, he's just too off-the-radar compared to others in his day like Debussy and Stravinsky.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

@0:29 - AbMaj7/D7 ?

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

1:06

What's going on with the rhythm here? I get that it's 3 against 4, but the plunger trumpet's throwing me off.

Daah dum daah daaah bit of the Bond theme is quarter notes and dotted 8ths and 16ths on unison horns, while the chromatic vamp is in delayed half notes (rest, half note on Ab-C, then final quarter note on pedal F and etc.). 7 measures in, the trumpet does a quarter note triplet response figure (B-C-B-C etc.) derived from the theme's following notes, but here's the thing - it starts a quarter note in as with the trombones before. So that must mean the triplets cross over the bar line...

Is that right?

[Ludwig 1,120]

This is a passage with a lot of offbeat accents, especially the ride cymbal, so it's easy to lose track of the downbeats, which are actually in the timpani on each of the pedal Fs. The trumpet triplets then appear on beats as well and no triplets go over the barline. The trombones on the Bond theme are in swing rhythm and more importantly, they don't always enter on the same beat. At first, they come in on the downbeat with everyone else, then with the second statement, they come in on beat 4, further confusing things rhythmically. Here's a sketch of what I believe is basically going on. It's not complete and it may not be 100% perfect, but it gives you the idea:

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

You see, I don't hear the French horns' second statement entering on the last quarter of bar 3. it sounds like they land on bar 4 to me. So the trumpet triplets are still problematic. Agree on everything else.

[Ludwig 1,120]

I figured it out. It starts on an upbeat, not a downbeat. If it started on a downbeat, the triplets would be virtually impossible to notate. Besides, the Bond theme B section tune doesn't always start on a downbeat, and actually in the title song of this film, it begins offbeat, so it's not as strange as it may seem. Here's a revised version:

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Thanks, that's it. Remarkably simple yet clever.

[Gnome in Plaid 219]

I'm not sure if this is the right thread, but I've been wondering what this string technique is called and how one might notate it.  It's the almost "record scratch" sound at the end, but I'm pretty sure it's an actual violin, not a sampled sound.

[karelm 2,902]

I'm not sure if this is the right thread, but I've been wondering what this string technique is called and how one might notate it. It's the almost "record scratch" sound at the end, but I'm pretty sure it's an actual violin, not a sampled sound.

Electric violin. Like this around 1:42 http://youtu.be/WMKmQmkJ9gg

[Gnome in Plaid 219]

I'm not sure if this is the right thread, but I've been wondering what this string technique is called and how one might notate it. It's the almost "record scratch" sound at the end, but I'm pretty sure it's an actual violin, not a sampled sound.

Electric violin. Like this around 1:42 http://youtu.be/WMKmQmkJ9gg

That doesn't sound quite right to me. I mean, maybe the clip you posted is just using a lot more distortion, but the Sherlock Holmes bit sounds very different to me. Anyway, even if writing for an electric violin, how might that be notated?

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

An electric violin has many different timbral possibilities like an electric guitar, so it doesn't have to sound the same. It could also be a regular violin processed electronically after the fact. It also wouldn't be notated, probably. Just the instruction to play a wild portamento or something with the general range/shape of the line.

Being unsure about how to achieve an instrumental effect is an opportunity for innovation - if you can't figure out how Zimmer did it, make up your own method! Me, I'd write a squiggly line in the direction I want the soloist to play, ask him or her to use more bow pressure than usual, and then do a bit of EQ'ing on the recording.

[karelm 2,902]

Yes, that's the point - it is a processed "electric" violin. Just like how electric guitars have huge range of sounds, the same goes for eviolins. Just listen to John Adam's Dharma at Big sur. Same instrument but different selection of processing due to different aesthetic choices.

[filmmusic 1,822]

This is a passage with a lot of offbeat accents, especially the ride cymbal, so it's easy to lose track of the downbeats, which are actually in the timpani on each of the pedal Fs. The trumpet triplets then appear on beats as well and no triplets go over the barline. The trombones on the Bond theme are in swing rhythm and more importantly, they don't always enter on the same beat. At first, they come in on the downbeat with everyone else, then with the second statement, they come in on beat 4, further confusing things rhythmically. Here's a sketch of what I believe is basically going on. It's not complete and it may not be 100% perfect, but it gives you the idea:

i'm sorry but how do you call this with the offbeat accents?

it's like a syncopation but instead of a note in strong beats we have pauses.

we have a specific name for it in greek, but i don't know the english word.

i found in french it's contretemps

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Ethnomusicologist Mieczyslaw Kolinski distinguishes between commetric and contrametric organisations of rhythm. Commetric being a rhythm that aligns the basic metrical pulse (or metrum) and contrametric, a rhythm that conflicts with it. The later is inherited from folk music, particularly that of West Africa, which is the birthplace of jazz, and by extension, that Thunderball passage.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

The planing bassoon/bass clarinet chords at the beginning... are they augmented? It's hard to tell in that muddy register.

If someone could work out the final crescendoing chord at 0:51 that would be ace.

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

Sharky, in this thread

http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=21993&page=2#entry1019419

you refer to spectral techniques as something for the hypothetical Barrow-Downs scene. I wonder, is that wishful thinking, or did you see that as something Shore might actually do?

I've been thinking about the very particular way in which he orchestrates lately and how often it seems peculiarly and specifically done in order to create an almost unidentifiable sort of sonority - is there some spectral or quasi-spectral method behind some of his music, you think?

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

That was actually wishful thinking e.g. what I might do.

I get what you saying though. But tbh I don't think he's a 'systematising' kind of composer. I think he's exploring colours like a painter would, and drawing on what he's heard and wrote before in order to create new sounds. Even his so called 'Manifesto' is just instructing players to be free as possible - the absence of rules. I'm sure he's aware of guys like Murail and Haas but I doubt he's running FFTs on instrument attacks or doing dozens of little equations to generate harmonics. It's more about evoking.

This is what I sort of had in my when I was imagining the Barrow Downs music.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

BTW, any thoughts on the Phantom Menace cue?

[Loert 2,509]

Hey Sharky, I do think it's just a sequence of augmented chords (starting on G -> Ab -> G.......G.......Gb.........Ab -> A -> Ab).

I rendered this sequence with two bassoons playing the top two notes and bass clarinet playing the bottom note. Have a listen and judge for yourself, if it's similar:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/18637418/senate%20chords%202.flac

I did miss out two chords in the middle but I still think they're all augmented.

As for the chord at 0:51, the best I could come up with is:

I think I hear a Db in the bass, and I guessed to put an E natural in there based on the fact the winds are playing that note in the high register. I think the way Williams approached it is to have the minor chord of the tritone away from the E in the bass (if that makes sense!).

I'm not really sure though, what do you think?

[Marcus 390]

Final crescendo chord at 00.51 is (from bottom to top) C-A-C-Db-F-Bb, deciphering from smart phone speakers...

[Jilal 569]

Question regarding orchestration: what is the highest note achievable on each of the individual strings of the instruments in the viol family? I know there are five basic playing positions on each string, with the fifth finger eventually reaching a major ninth above the pitch of the open string in fifth position, but I'd like to know what's more or less considered the absolute extreme.

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

Get thee to a bookstore selling orchestration books!

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Not just that... a bookstore selling Renaissance orchestration books!

Forgot to reply to these.

Hey Sharky, I do think it's just a sequence of augmented chords (starting on G -> Ab -> G.......G.......Gb.........Ab -> A -> Ab).

I rendered this sequence with two bassoons playing the top two notes and bass clarinet playing the bottom note. Have a listen and judge for yourself, if it's similar:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/18637418/senate%20chords%202.flac

I did miss out two chords in the middle but I still think they're all augmented.

Thanks, loert. That's spot on.

Final crescendo chord at 00.51 is (from bottom to top) C-A-C-Db-F-Bb, deciphering from smart phone speakers...

Sounds just right, although I'm undecided on the low A. Would that be A1 or A2?

[Jilal 569]

1:03 - 1:10

Does this happen to be a case of planing minor seventh chords? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I'm hearing Ebm7 - Dm7 - Fm7 - Gm7.

[karelm 2,902]

1:03 - 1:10

Does this happen to be a case of planing minor seventh chords? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I'm hearing Ebm7 - Dm7 - Fm7 - Gm7.

That is what I hear but the last chord as Gm6/E.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

1:03 - 1:10

Does this happen to be a case of planing minor seventh chords?

This is what it sounds like to me.

Ebm7/Ab -> Dm7/G -> Ebm7/Ab -> Fm7/Bb -> GbMaj7/Ab

A mix of chromatic and diatonic parallel motion, along with one instance of the bass moving in contrary motion (Bb down to Ab).

With the exception of the last one (Absus13?) you could call these sus9s.

[karelm 2,902]

1:03 - 1:10

Does this happen to be a case of planing minor seventh chords?

This is what it sounds like to me.

Ebm7/Ab -> Dm7/G -> Ebm7/Ab -> Fm7/Bb -> GbMaj7/Ab

A mix of chromatic and diatonic parallel motion, along with one instance of the bass moving in contrary motion (Bb down to Ab).

With the exception of the last one (Absus13?) you could call these sus9s.

Good call Shark.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Thanks.

Can anyone work out what if the buzzy brass instrument at 0:03 is a stopped horn or harmon muted trombone? Really faint but just about audible.

Also curious about that flute at 0:23. Doesn't sound like a pan pipe or shakuhachi to me. Probably some other bamboo flute.

[Gnome in Plaid 219]

Thanks.

Can anyone work out what if the buzzy brass instrument at 0:03 is a stopped horn or harmon muted trombone? Really faint but just about audible.

Also curious about that flute at 0:23. Doesn't sound like a pan pipe or shakuhachi to me. Probably some other bamboo flute.

I can hear what you're referring to with the brass, but it's too faint for me to make out what instrument it is. As for the flute, I'm pretty sure it's a ney.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Cheers. Been wondering about that for years.

Would you say the Ney is overblown with a half-hole bend?

[Gnome in Plaid 219]

Maybe? I don't have anything even remotely resembling perfect pitch, but it doesn't seem off to me. Also, if the ney is anything like a rhaita/surnay, its tuning is a little off of a Western temperament.

[Jilal 569]

This is what it sounds like to me.

Ebm7/Ab -> Dm7/G -> Ebm7/Ab -> Fm7/Bb -> GbMaj7/Ab

A mix of chromatic and diatonic parallel motion, along with one instance of the bass moving in contrary motion (Bb down to Ab).

With the exception of the last one (Absus13?) you could call these sus9s.

Excellent. Seems I most importantly missed out on the bass notes. Thank you!

This is a great little passage, by the way. Very catchy.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

No worries! I long for this kind of harmony to return to film music.

Maybe? I don't have anything even remotely resembling perfect pitch, but it doesn't seem off to me. Also, if the ney is anything like a rhaita/surnay, its tuning is a little off of a Western temperament.

What I mean is, it dips up from C to D, then on the B it falls off. On endblown flutes you slowly half close the hole with your finger to bend the pitch up, and slowly open it to bend it down. I thought it might be overblown because the has a lot of air in it. Almost like as a kid when you first pick up a recorder - it's not a clean tone.

About the buzzy brass instrument, I'm now convinced it's a stopped horn. It's got that characteristic, edgy, unstable tone you get when stopping in a lower register.

[karelm 2,902]

Hey Sharky, since you're a fan of metal, write a concerto for this:

[Jilal 569]

No worries! I long for this kind of harmony to return to film music.

If I ever get the opportunity ...

[Jilal 569]

Is this an example of the Eb diminished scale being used?

WILLIAMS - REVENGE OF THE SITH - 1M4A Get 'Em, R-2! - mm. 1 - 4 (Strings)

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Yes! Although I think to call it Octatonic Collection II.

[Loert 2,509]

What is the high instrument which comes in at around 2:02-09 in Main Title and The Attack on the Jakku Village?

 

 

I'm thinking it's either a flute cluster, or some kind of bell, or both.

 

[karelm 2,902]

It sounds like a sustained synth pad with high strings + winds doing repeated runs.

[Loert 2,509]

If it is a synthesizer, it's a very good and interesting usage of one!

 

I'm only really hearing strings in the repeated runs though...which is why I thought that sustained cluster might be played by flutes.

[Jilal 569]

So, Williams asks for actual synthesizers to be used, instead of synth VST's? Or both, perhaps? Or is the keyboardist simply using the synthesizer in that picture as a MIDI keyboard?

[karelm 2,902]

Yes, the synth is used as a musical instrument and is in the scoring stage.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

On 30/12/2015 at 5:36 PM, karelm said:

It sounds like a sustained synth pad with high strings + winds doing repeated runs.

 

Cool. Is that a Nord Stage 2? It can utilise FM, wavetable and (virtual) analogue synthesis, and Randy probably used all three on this score.

[karelm 2,902]

1 hour ago, Sharky said:

 

Cool. Is that a Nord Stage 2? It can utilise FM, wavetable and (virtual) analogue synthesis, and Randy probably used all three on this score.

 

Yes, Nord Stage 2.

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

I don't think Williams makes the determination by himself though.  I reckon they use software synths for some of his desired sounds too. I've seen computers set up around Randy, not just keyboard racks.  And think of that photo from the Soundings rehearsal, there's a desktop hooked up. 

[Loert 2,509]

Yeah, I've always wondered how does Williams know which synths he want to use in the score? Does he have synths in his studio? Or does he know in his head what he wants the synth to sound like and then decides (or someone else decides) which keyboards/synths instruments to use at recording? (if that makes any sense)

[Gnome in Plaid 219]

2 hours ago, loert423 said:

Yeah, I've always wondered how does Williams know which synths he want to use in the score? Does he have synths in his studio? Or does he know in his head what he wants the synth to sound like and then decides (or someone else decides) which keyboards/synths instruments to use at recording? (if that makes any sense)

 

Looking at AOTC and ROTS, the synth parts are usually marked with some sort of descriptor (i.e. "Voice," "Wind").  I would assume there's a good deal of carry-over from one score to the next, and whoever is serving as the synth programmer has a good idea what he means when he writes down those descriptions.