HZ: bad, or no?

[Naïve Old Fart 9,515]

O.k. This is the moment that the whole of JWfan - indeed, the whole universe - has been moving towards. Forget 42, and all that jazz: this is the question of ultimate everything. After this, the whole of creation will simply be a footnote.

Are you ready? The question is:

Is Hans Zimmer really that bad?

Now, don't all shout at once. I ask this because, despite the bashing that he gets, HZ is an incredibly successful, and infulential composer, in a way that very few film composers are, or wil ever be.

I must admit a certain liking for his "early" scores (I'm thinking "Rain Man", "Thelma And Louise", "Green Card", "The Power Of One"). His recent stuff I can only describe by using a Paul Simon lyric: "alright in a sort of limited way for an off-night". Yes, it's lazy, un-inspired, and formulaic, yet it sells by the truck-load. It also has a certain ability to get under the skin, and that makes it extremely effective music.

So, whad'da' say, guys? Is he really bad, or is he just misunderstood?

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Good but extremely misunderstood due to bouts of badness.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

He's a canny dramatist. Like John Barry, he doesn't have the technical facility of the Horners, Williamses or Goldsmiths when it comes to the pantheon of film music, but he's got great dramatic instincts. He's a classic autodidact, and is considerably more musically literate than he lets out. He works with broad brushes, and that's where the strength in his scoring lies. Not in the small gestures, but in a more European approach. An ability to hit the subtext of an entire scene, playing through it.

To quote a post on a certain Bond forum:

It may be obvious, maybe not, but what Hans Zimmer achieved with Inception's score -- very Nolan, a driving, electronic-symphonic structure that largely complement each other, as well as cues that quite literally recall great Bond tracks in short-hand; the ability, then, to capture tone and thematic arc through setting-as-psychology, the exotic scale and insular, hidden pieces that are underscored by that score's ability to balance intimacy with grandeur -- at times made me think of the best of John Barry, but in a positive rather than negative contrast.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

As far as I've observed, there are 3 chief issues that people have with Zimmer.

1) His style, and its pervasiveness

Well, as Sharky said, he is much more musically knowledgable than you might think, but he's found the realm that he enjoys creating in, so that's that for the most part. Film music doesn't have to be symphonic, leitmotivic, acoustic, or stand up to intense academic scrutinizing - it just has to work. And his does for a lot of people, myself included, most of the time. As for the omnipresence of the RCP "sound," can you really blame him for that? Blame the filmmakers and uninspired composers who respectively perpetuate and unsuccessfully imitate the style. That's the cringey stuff. I don't recall ever finding Hans' music cringeworthy. He knows what not to do with his relatively straightforward language.

2) His non-solo approach

This bugged me at first too, if for no other reason than I wanted to know just what he was responsible for and what someone else had come up with. But I've stopped caring. When it's him, you can tell. And there shouldn't be a stigma around it anyway. He's not doing anything sleazy or under the table. He's very open about it. He likes the group approach - he has a band.

3) His image

I don't think any other film composer is quite as visible as Hans. There are loads of interviews with him, talking for hours at a time. You are bound to find him saying something that irks you, perhaps touting his revolutionary approach to his next film, and people let that tarnish the fact that for 40 minutes prior, he was an affable, engaging guy.

I expect shit for this.

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

When he doesn't get lazy and cares for the project it shows. Hansy can be brilliant with the right circumnstances.

I've said this before but with his knowledge on film I'd wish he gave directing a try. He could do some truly fantastic stuff considering his sensibilities.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=21991&p=839880

[Incanus 5,714]

Nah Zimmer is a swell guy and I like that he helps people into the business but I don't dig majority of his modern output or the company/machine he has built to make music for films.

But I like poking little fun at him just the same.

[Datameister 2,041]

I think there are a lot of different questions to be asked about any given score (or composer, by extension). For instance:

* Do you think their work complements the film?

* Do you enjoy listening to it on its own?

* Are the filmmakers happy with the score - in other words, is the composer doing their job?

* What is the general public's reaction to the score, if any?

* What is the film music fan community's reaction, if any?

* How well did the album sell?

* To what degree has the music influenced other composers?

* To what degree do you find skill and artistic integrity in the music?

* Could this have been written by someone else - in other words, does this represent a unique musical voice?

* Does this work bring something new to the composer's oeuvre?

For many Zimmer scores, I might answer something along the lines of:

* Yes, quite well.

* Sometimes, if I'm in the right mood.

* Very much so.

* Highly positive.

* Highly polarized.

* Quite well, for a soundtrack.

* Enormous influence.

* Technical skill, plenty; traditional musical chops, middling; artistic integrity, very little.

* Not that difficult to mimic.

* Sometimes a big yes...sometimes a big no...sometimes more of a mixed bag.

So is he bad? Well, he'd make a pretty awful John Williams, but he does Hans Zimmer just fine. Whether we enjoy his work or not is a matter of personal taste, but I think it's beyond debate that he's influenced the industry and created a product that a lot of people like.

[Score_Fan 36]

I really like Zimmer, and almost all of his output. His TASM2 score is the only thing that excites me for that POS video game looking film, honestly. He does sometimes phone it in a bit, using themes he used before (but hey, who doesn't? Seriously?), so no, he's not bad. He also really loves his fans, and loves other musical tastes and eccentricities from other/aspiring composers.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Zimmer talks like he is full of shit. That's the issue, I can ignore his music.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

You can ignore his music but you can't ignore his interviews?

[Quintus 5,399]

He's got great dramatic instincts. He's a classic autodidact, and is considerably more musically literate than he lets out. He works with broad brushes, and that's where the strength in his scoring lies. Not in the small gestures, but in a more European approach. An ability to hit the subtext of an entire scene, playing through it.

This.

But apart from MoS, I haven't really enjoyed anything Zimmer has done in ten years.

[A24 4,331]

I agree with Pilgrim that you doesn't need a master degree in composition before you can write good (film) music, although it does help if you want to write symphonic film music. If anything, a lot of the autodidacts have a unique voice, something that make them different from the traditionally trained artists. Toru Takemitsu is a famous example of that. Vangelis is an autodidact too and I really like his score to Blade Runner and some of his older concept albums. And whether you like what you hear or not, Zimmer is instantly recognizable. In fact, a lot of the autodidacts are, and not just in music, Spielberg, Nolan, Paul Thomas Anderson, Fincher and Tarantino are some of the most distinguished and distinctive directors out there. Passion is a good teacher.


Alex

[Thor 7,493]

A definite 'no' from me. He's my fourth favourite composer of all time, and simply a master at what he does.

LONG LIVE THE ZIMMER!

[aj_vader 534]

I think Zimmer is great at what he does.

I know he gets a lot of "stick" on here.

I can't exactly remember when it was but I was going to start a petition on here to change from JW-FAN-FORUMS to the WE-HATE-ZIMMER forums.

I don't follow all his work, but the various stuff i've heard (and purchased) is fantastic work.

There I said it, sue me!

[Thor 7,493]

Plus, we're best friends!

[indy4 155]

He's great!

[Incanus 5,714]

Plus, we're best friends!

Hans really looks like he is enjoying your company. Or is that how he always is with his friends?

[Thor 7,493]

Can't you see? It's the Mona Lisa smile.

[crocodile 8,000]

I enjoy quite a few of his works, but also wish his scores displayed some kind of sense of forward motion. There's nothing wrong with chants in the last Batman film. In fact, it's a cool idea. But they don't seem to go anywhere and overwhelming sound mix doesn't help. It's a bit better with Man of Steel. A little architecture behind his ideas wouldn't be bad.

Karol - who'd like to hear more smaller stuff from Zimmer (that's where he does his best things)

[Richard Penna 3,684]

As far as I've observed, there are 3 chief issues that people have with Zimmer.

1) His style, and its pervasiveness

2) His non-solo approach

3) His image

My biggest problem I think is that his 'wall of sound' style has appealed so much to people not normally into scores, that everyone wants it imitated.

Therefore, when he gives an assignment to someone at RCP, I can imagine the instructions on sound/style, etc, have little variation from project to project.

Then I listen to a non-RCP composer,and it sounds so fresh in comparison.

2. Non-solo approach - it seems wrong to me for it to be routine that Zimmer scores are not his solo work. By giving work to other composers, you're either getting another composer's sound in a Zimmer score, or they are being forced to conform to his 'branded' sound, rather than being allowed to develop themselves.

I also suspect that producers want his name on projects enough that he takes an 'overproducer' role, while someone else does the majority of the work.

3.Image - he should rely less on stunts such as the drum circle, or the chant. No other composers announce 6 months in advance in a press release that they're using this instrument, or collaborating with such-and-such, and have the score sound no more revolutionary than the last one.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

3.Image - he should rely less on stunts such as the drum circle, or the chant. No other composers announce 6 months in advance in a press release that they're using this instrument, or collaborating with such-and-such, and have the score sound no more revolutionary than the last one.

I don't think Zimmer shouldn't have gone with those ideas. It's just like you say, the self-promotion that raises people's expectations too high. He's a victim of his own self-hype, to some degree.

[karelm 2,912]

HZ is a shrewd businessman and has given a short term boost to a lot of talented people. But his impact on the industry is bad overall. He is terribly overrated in the music department because since he views music as a widget/commodity (more so now than in the past) and since he's a businessman, he will excel in this area and inundate the market over others who are less savvy with this. Some of those who are less savvy are superior composers. HZ then becomes more dependent on their talent to continue the mass production of his business model. This ultimately results in a weaker power for the talented musicians/composers and opportunities for them drying up.

My problem with HZ isn't his music - it is how pervasive it is because of his business skills and how this becomes equated with quality. It is now the "sound" of what other talented people are asked to sound like because film makers don't understand the difference between quality and quantity. To me, HZ is the equivalent of people thinking McDonalds is what beef tastes like because it is everywhere. When someone has a real filet steak cooked perfectly, they say - "it's not good because beef tastes like McD". Yes, yes, McD makes billions more than just about anyone else because of their business model.

If you are a highly skilled and trained chef who works in an organic, sustainable environment but the winner of cooking contests is McDonalds...

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

HZ is a shrewd businessman and has given a short term boost to a lot of talented people. But his impact on the industry is bad overall. He is terribly overrated in the music department because since he views music is a widget/commodity (more so now than in the past) and since he's a businessman, he will excel in this area and inundate the market over others who are less savvy with this. Some of those who are less savvy are superior composers. HZ then becomes more dependent on their talent to continue the mass production of his business model. This ultimately results in a weaker power for the talented musicians/composers and opportunities for them drying up.

I agree with this. Zimmer's a first rate hustler, but through that process he's contributed a great deal to the reification of film music. Alex North would be spinning in his grave.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Zimmer himself is not without talent and has his own style. In interviews he comes across as a nice man...for a German.

I just HATE the fact that his sound has become the dominant sound of Hollywood.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

I'm sure lots of people hated the second-rate copy-cattery of John Williams sound in Hollywood from 1980 to 1999 as well, Steefan.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Horner, Silvestri, Kamen, Poledouris had far more of their own distinctive voices and styles as Jablonski, Rabin, Badelt, Djawadi...

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Who said anything about them being dead?

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Horner, Silvestri, Kamen, Poledouris had far more of their own distinctive voices and styles as Jablonski, Rabin, Badelt, Djawadi...

Hardly!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Oh yeah!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Koray Savas 2,251]

HZ is a shrewd businessman and has given a short term boost to a lot of talented people. But his impact on the industry is bad overall. He is terribly overrated in the music department because since he views music as a widget/commodity (more so now than in the past) and since he's a businessman, he will excel in this area and inundate the market over others who are less savvy with this. Some of those who are less savvy are superior composers. HZ then becomes more dependent on their talent to continue the mass production of his business model. This ultimately results in a weaker power for the talented musicians/composers and opportunities for them drying up.

My problem with HZ isn't his music - it is how pervasive it is because of his business skills and how this becomes equated with quality. It is now the "sound" of what other talented people are asked to sound like because film makers don't understand the difference between quality and quantity. To me, HZ is the equivalent of people thinking McDonalds is what beef tastes like because it is everywhere. When someone has a real filet steak cooked perfectly, they say - "it's not good because beef tastes like McD". Yes, yes, McD makes billions more than just about anyone else because of their business model.

If you are a highly skilled and trained chef who works in an organic, sustainable environment but the winner of cooking contests is McDonalds...

Awful analogy. No one in their right mind equates a McDonald's patty to a fine steak. You know why they sell billions of burgers and the highly trained chef doesn't? Because the burgers are $1 versus $40 for the steak. The economics of the food industry are entirely different to that of the film industry.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Not so much. Synths are cheaper than orchestras!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Synths are cheaper then burgers!

[Naïve Old Fart 9,515]

It may be an odd question, but...can HZ read music? I assume that he can, but you never know...

Lots of leading musicians from all sorts of genres cannot read music.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

I'd find it hard to believe that at this point he doesn't have some ability with reading it. But I don't think he utilizes it either way.

[KK 3,307]

Of course Hans can read music! But that doesn't necessarily have to play a role in how he writes these days. I don't think its a skill required in his approach to a score anymore.

[karelm 2,912]

HZ is a shrewd businessman and has given a short term boost to a lot of talented people. But his impact on the industry is bad overall. He is terribly overrated in the music department because since he views music as a widget/commodity (more so now than in the past) and since he's a businessman, he will excel in this area and inundate the market over others who are less savvy with this. Some of those who are less savvy are superior composers. HZ then becomes more dependent on their talent to continue the mass production of his business model. This ultimately results in a weaker power for the talented musicians/composers and opportunities for them drying up.

My problem with HZ isn't his music - it is how pervasive it is because of his business skills and how this becomes equated with quality. It is now the "sound" of what other talented people are asked to sound like because film makers don't understand the difference between quality and quantity. To me, HZ is the equivalent of people thinking McDonalds is what beef tastes like because it is everywhere. When someone has a real filet steak cooked perfectly, they say - "it's not good because beef tastes like McD". Yes, yes, McD makes billions more than just about anyone else because of their business model.

If you are a highly skilled and trained chef who works in an organic, sustainable environment but the winner of cooking contests is McDonalds...

Awful analogy. No one in their right mind equates a McDonald's patty to a fine steak. You know why they sell billions of burgers and the highly trained chef doesn't? Because the burgers are $1 versus $40 for the steak. The economics of the food industry are entirely different to that of the film industry.

Right. I agree with you. A more accurate analogy is if the McDonalds is sold for $100 as if it were quality steak though it is a $1 phony. People who know the difference know its a fake but most don't know or don't care because it takes less effort.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,515]

Plus, we're best friends!

Hans really looks like he is enjoying your company. Or is that how he always is with his friends?

Cool photo, but whose the dude on the left?

[KK 3,307]

I don't know....but he don't look too happy.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Looks like some fat, drunk tramp Thor found on the streets of Oslo.

[Thor 7,493]

A Supertramp!

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

It may be an odd question, but...can HZ read music? I assume that he can, but you never know...

Lots of leading musicians from all sorts of genres cannot read music.

He can both read and write music. I've seen his sketches.

[KK 3,307]

A Supertramp!

Are there a lot of those in your country Thor?

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

It may be an odd question, but...can HZ read music? I assume that he can, but you never know...

Lots of leading musicians from all sorts of genres cannot read music.

He can both read and write music. I've seen his sketches.

Where?

[KK 3,307]

It may be an odd question, but...can HZ read music? I assume that he can, but you never know...

Lots of leading musicians from all sorts of genres cannot read music.

He can both read and write music. I've seen his sketches.

I'd be very curious to see those! These are all digital sketches, yes?

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

It may be an odd question, but...can HZ read music? I assume that he can, but you never know...

Lots of leading musicians from all sorts of genres cannot read music.

He can both read and write music. I've seen his sketches.

I'd be very curious to see those! These are all digital sketches, yes?

Handwritten. Could be wrong though - someone might have ghost-written it for him.

It may be an odd question, but...can HZ read music? I assume that he can, but you never know...

Lots of leading musicians from all sorts of genres cannot read music.

He can both read and write music. I've seen his sketches.

Where?

For a cue from BATMAN BEGINS.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,515]

Nah. He just copied-out JNH's work!

[Koray Savas 2,251]

HZ is a shrewd businessman and has given a short term boost to a lot of talented people. But his impact on the industry is bad overall. He is terribly overrated in the music department because since he views music as a widget/commodity (more so now than in the past) and since he's a businessman, he will excel in this area and inundate the market over others who are less savvy with this. Some of those who are less savvy are superior composers. HZ then becomes more dependent on their talent to continue the mass production of his business model. This ultimately results in a weaker power for the talented musicians/composers and opportunities for them drying up.

My problem with HZ isn't his music - it is how pervasive it is because of his business skills and how this becomes equated with quality. It is now the "sound" of what other talented people are asked to sound like because film makers don't understand the difference between quality and quantity. To me, HZ is the equivalent of people thinking McDonalds is what beef tastes like because it is everywhere. When someone has a real filet steak cooked perfectly, they say - "it's not good because beef tastes like McD". Yes, yes, McD makes billions more than just about anyone else because of their business model.

If you are a highly skilled and trained chef who works in an organic, sustainable environment but the winner of cooking contests is McDonalds...

Awful analogy. No one in their right mind equates a McDonald's patty to a fine steak. You know why they sell billions of burgers and the highly trained chef doesn't? Because the burgers are $1 versus $40 for the steak. The economics of the food industry are entirely different to that of the film industry.

Right. I agree with you. A more accurate analogy is if the McDonalds is sold for $100 as if it were quality steak though it is a $1 phony. People who know the difference know its a fake but most don't know or don't care because it takes less effort.

Forget it. I never understood why some people think RCP is a company or business and that Zimmer is a tycoon. It's a recording studio for fuck's sake.