Return of the Jedi

[Balahkay 627]

What is everyone's opinion is regards to Williams' music in ROTJ? Does it live up to SW and ESB (or the prequels if you think those are superior scores)? Personally, I think it has some of the best musical moments in the saga, especially the music involving Luke, Vader and the Emperor towards the end of the film.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

It's my favourite SW score.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Mine too.

[Jay 37,339]

It's a masterpiece, yet I somehow always favor TESB over it as the superior masterpiece.

 

But they are both 5 star out of 5 star scores, no question

[Incanus 5,714]

A wonderful score, a little below Star Wars and ESB but certainly full of fantastic John Williams goodness. Certainly most colorful of the original trilogy with the broadest scope I feel.

[Trent B 337]

I've always preferred the score for ESB over ROTJ. In fact ESB is my favorite Star Wars score.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

*Reads 'the it's great but I prefer the other two' posts above.*

Mine too.

Looks like we've got to start justifying that.

[Incanus 5,714]

*Reads 'the it's great but I prefer the other two' posts above.*

Mine too.

Looks like we've got to start justifying that.

Please use layman terms so that we, the mortals, can understand what you are saying. Pretty please.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Exhibit A

5:03 to the end

[Incanus 5,714]

Yup. The operatic flow of the musical finale is definitely a highlight. Williams makes it all feel quite effortless and inevitable. I love that religioso material in the confrontation between Vader and Luke and the wicked malevolence dripping music of the Emperor in those scenes. I have to admit that the Prequels reach very rarely to this level of musico-dramatic coherence.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

The nightmarish writing from 8:45 to 9:08 is incredible. It adds a genuine sense of utter horror to the scene that would otherwise be conspicuously lacking.

[Luke Skywalker 1,794]

For me ROTJ is the best SW score, but it "suffers" , if one could really say that, from lack of originality, as it contains almost all the themes from the saga. It would be the best score to have if only one could be picked...

It also suffers from bad quality sound....

[Balahkay 627]

The music at Jabba's Palace is also great. I think William's captured Jabba's theme and his underground world perfectly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMCykm9FnnI

For me ROTJ is the best SW score, but it "suffers" , if one could really say that, from lack of originality, as it contains almost all the themes from the saga. It would be the best score to have if only one could be picked...

It also suffers from bad quality sound....

Yes, but Williams' introduces so many new themes for Jabba, the ewoks and the Emperor. Then there is "Into a Trap." Unfortunately, a lot of music was hacked up for film, particularly for the battle of Endor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_dHM-1w1LY

[Wojo 2,453]

Lack of originality because it recycles most of the main themes? Had it omitted most of them, people would complain about the lack of musical continuity.

I am seriously disappointed the powerful Final Duel music was never revisited in the prequels.

Rich

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

I am seriously disappointed the powerful Final Duel music was never revisited in the prequels.

I would have preferred it to Battle of the Heroes or that Clash of the Lightsabers lift.

[Wojo 2,453]

Definitely.

Rich

[Incanus 5,714]

I am seriously disappointed the powerful Final Duel music was never revisited in the prequels.

I would have preferred it to Battle of the Heroes or that Clash of the Lightsabers lift.

Definitely.

Rich

Yes. I concur most heartily. Johnny quoted the wrong section of the old trilogy in RotS.

[Wojo 2,453]

George told him, "those assholes like ESB so much, you should quote that one. And use Duel of the Fates, it makes my beard tingle."

Rich

[Trent B 337]

I am seriously disappointed the powerful Final Duel music was never revisited in the prequels.

That I have to agree with. I too agree with Incanus that Williams should have quoted this piece instead of "Through The Window" for ROTS.

[Incanus 5,714]

I am seriously disappointed the powerful Final Duel music was never revisited in the prequels.

That I have to agree with. I too agree with Incanus that Williams should have quoted this piece instead of "Through The Window" for ROTS.

On the whole in Prequels Williams treats the old themes in a rather static way, repeating them note-for-note in many instances. Emperor's theme is a prime example of this, where Williams "forgets" the entire second phrase of the theme and just repeats the opening endlessly, the renditions having quite similar orchestrations on top of this. There is less fluidity and natural flow in the way themes, old and new, are introduced and used compared to the old trilogy, which has as I said above the certain effortless balletic flow to the way Williams handles his musical ideas.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

The nightmarish writing from 8:45 to 9:08 is incredible. It adds a genuine sense of utter horror to the scene that would otherwise be conspicuously lacking.

I'm about to transcribe that bit - it's much simpler than it sounds. Just trying to find a free trial version of Sibelius 6 on the interweb.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

I think you brought it up in a thread a while back and I worked it out; just a few clashing lines over a cluster that slowly creeps up chromatically, right?

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

It's not really a cluster.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Ah nope. Quarter-tone vibrato line in the mens voices, doubled by a parallel line high in the violins, a mostly brass line that splits into 2 or 3 clashing parts, and those two low notes. That's what I hear.

[Jonesy 55]

ESB is my favourite SW score, but I have to admit that ROTJ has the best action stuff in the saga.

[Jay 37,339]

Agreed

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Ah nope. Quarter-tone vibrato line in the mens voices, doubled by a parallel line high in the violins, a mostly brass line that splits into 2 or 3 clashing parts, and those two low notes. That's what I hear.

It's a good example of fourth species counterpoint, though I wouldn't really call it a cluster, even an open cluster. It's too diffuse.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Yeah I thought I remembered deciding that the mens voices were in a cluster but must have been thinking of something else, they're obviously not.

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

I've always considered the ESB as a better score, mostly because it's more original and maybe has more variety.

But I'm not sure anymore, Jedi is just a brilliant badass score! So much weird beautifully atonal stuff and the action music is insane!

JEDI ROCKS!!!!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

Jesus I knew this to come!!!

[Marcus 390]

Fabulous score, with two of the greatest musical death scenes of all time.

[karelm 2,912]

I consider ESB to JW's pinnacle achievement. I also believe Star Wars and ROTJ are exceptional but a step below ESB. All cylinders were firing with that one. Asteroid belt, Hoth, Yoda, Han and Leia, Clash of the Sabers, etc., every second is just so damn good. Plus how each cue builds progressively to the next makes it a tremendous listening experience that hasn't been surpassed in my humble experience. It is more than great music (which the others are)...it is transcendent.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Objectively speaking I recognise ESB as the superior achievement, but ROTJ just resonates with me more on a personal level. Always liked its weary 'the hour is late' atmosphere, typified in this cue, along with the more expressionistic vibe.

 

[Red 75]

I love this score; love it. Not to be redundant but I'd probably place Empire a notch higher but to be honest each of the trilogy are pretty much at the same level in my book. I've listened to "The Dark Side Beckons" and "Into the Trap" a countless number of times.

[Incanus 5,714]

Hmmm it has been a good while since I listened to the original trilogy. I think I'll revisit it tonight.

[Datameister 2,041]

Its highlights are among Williams' finest moments, but I find that it also has more dull moments than its predecessors. And of course, it doesn't help that the sound quality on the SE release is rather awful.

Regardless, still an excellent score. When I was a kid, it was my favorite (as was the film).

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I really like Yub Nub. Ditch that awful new version.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Jesus I knew this to come!!!

You brought this on yourself!

[Luke Skywalker 1,794]

I am seriously disappointed the powerful Final Duel music was never revisited in the prequels.

That I have to agree with. I too agree with Incanus that Williams should have quoted this piece instead of "Through The Window" for ROTS.

On the whole in Prequels Williams treats the old themes in a rather static way, repeating them note-for-note in many instances. Emperor's theme is a prime example of this, where Williams "forgets" the entire second phrase of the theme and just repeats the opening endlessly, the renditions having quite similar orchestrations on top of this.

You know that if we had Doug Adams to analise these scores he would say that the prequel theme is 'Palpatine in ascension' and the ROTJ version is the 'Palpatine the Emperor' in full regalia... and we all would be happy for the cleverness of John WIlliams...

BTW about ochestration, i think you forget 'I AM the Senate'

Lack of originality because it recycles most of the main themes? Had it omitted most of them, people would complain about the lack of musical continuity.

I am seriously disappointed the powerful Final Duel music was never revisited in the prequels.

Rich

I said that in regard of how some people could see that score. But for me it's perfect in mixed all the thematical integrity of the saga. I aslo Like Return of the King more for that reason.

[Incanus 5,714]

I am seriously disappointed the powerful Final Duel music was never revisited in the prequels.

That I have to agree with. I too agree with Incanus that Williams should have quoted this piece instead of "Through The Window" for ROTS.

On the whole in Prequels Williams treats the old themes in a rather static way, repeating them note-for-note in many instances. Emperor's theme is a prime example of this, where Williams "forgets" the entire second phrase of the theme and just repeats the opening endlessly, the renditions having quite similar orchestrations on top of this.

You know that if we had Doug Adams to analise these scores he would say that the prequel theme is 'Palpatine in ascension' and the ROTJ version is the 'Palpatine the Emperor' in full regalia... and we all would be happy for the cleverness of John WIlliams...

BTW about ochestration, i think you forget 'I AM the Senate'

First of all I hope no one will analise these scores.

And secondly there are of course variations in the way e.g. Emperor's theme is orchestrated and handled but quite a few instances in TPM or even RotS the theme appears almost in the same guise.

[Luke Skywalker 1,794]

analyse, sorry.

SPELLING NAZI! (since Joey's not here, someone has to say it )

[Incanus 5,714]

analyse, sorry.

SPELLING NAZI! (since Joey's not here, someone has to say it )

I thought you would be happy to be corrected in this case.

And what I was driving at when I was comparing RotJ and RotS is that the latter doesn't feel as fluid and effortless in its progression from scene to scene musically. It starts and stops and feels, even though it might not necessarily be written like that, composed in shorted sections without even a thought to link them together like RotJ does. Even the duel at the end has a choppy quality when we have the Battle of the Heroes, Duel of the Fates and short snippets of suspense for Yoda's fall starting and stopping continually and not wedded into a fluid whole.

[Wojo 2,453]

But that choppiness is consistent with the musical "flow" of the final battles in Episode I. It's not out of place because the precedent to be crummy had already been set.

Rich

[Incanus 5,714]

But that choppiness is consistent with the musical "flow" of the final battles in Episode I. It's not out of place because the precedent to be crummy had already been set.

Rich

Ah that makes it all OK then.

[Faleel 5,345]

And what I was driving at when I was comparing RotJ and RotS is that the latter doesn't feel as fluid and effortless in its progression from scene to scene musically. It starts and stops and feels, even though it might not necessarily be written like that, composed in shorted sections without even a thought to link them together like RotJ does. Even the duel at the end has a choppy quality when we have the Battle of the Heroes, Duel of the Fates and short snippets of suspense for Yoda's fall starting and stopping continually and not wedded into a fluid whole.

Were you listening to the score seperated or with cues combined?

[Incanus 5,714]

And what I was driving at when I was comparing RotJ and RotS is that the latter doesn't feel as fluid and effortless in its progression from scene to scene musically. It starts and stops and feels, even though it might not necessarily be written like that, composed in shorted sections without even a thought to link them together like RotJ does. Even the duel at the end has a choppy quality when we have the Battle of the Heroes, Duel of the Fates and short snippets of suspense for Yoda's fall starting and stopping continually and not wedded into a fluid whole.

Were you listening to the score seperated or with cues combined?

Both. It doesn't really help the final third that much to have the pieces combined.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Its highlights are among Williams' finest moments, but I find that it also has more dull moments than its predecessors.

Which are the dull moments for you?

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Second half of disc one I could see being a bit "slow." Mostly due to Jedi Rocks, hehe. Actually, time to delete that one.

[Faleel 5,345]

Iactually like Jedi Rocks....in a "thats so bad its funny" kind of way.