Dixon Hill 4,232 Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Everyone should read that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arnaud 6 Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 If anybody reads Alex Ross' The Rest is Noise, you will find that every composed quoted everybody, from Bruckner to Schoenberg.Thank you, I will order this book right away. Plagiarism exists but some people see it at every turn which is really boring. Some because they don't know enough about music and others because they know more than they should and it turned them into snobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedBard 71 Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 Fine! Here's some "plagiarism" I found: "The Exalted Sacrifice" from Le Sacre Du Printempshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9Q0lzInidIand"The Dune Sea of Tatooine/Jawa Sandcrawler" from Star Warshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iISxAhvv3tsPersonally, I find the Exalted Sacrifice to be more suspensful and torturous in terms of emotion, truer to a desert atmsophere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arnaud 6 Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 Well, that's a perfect illustration of a quote. Given that Rites of Spring is one of the greatest piece of music written in the 20th century and one of the most original for its time I'm tempted to say that Williams did a pretty good job. He toyed with it in the first few bars and then freed himself from the temp track. I won't dare to say that he improved on it but he certainly found his own voice pretty quickly and the rest of the piece is remarkable in its own right.That reminds me that Lucas rejected the original Jawa theme so he was really hands on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jocores 96 Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 As I don't find the bright thread I write it here. Listening to A million ways to die in the west is pretty obvious that Mcneely was told ti follow the steps of the Scherzo for motorbike and orchestra for the track Racing the train. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,266 Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 This thread:http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=24449 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,157 Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Scherzo for Motorcycle and Orchestra to me always seems to have a certain similarity to Bernstein's action writing in The Great Escape. Which also prominently features a motorcycle, though it's been to long since I've seen it to recall whether the passages I'm referring to are actually connected to the motorcycle chase. If anybody reads Alex Ross' The Rest is Noise, you will find that every composed quoted everybody, from Bruckner to Schoenberg. And especially from Wagner, it seems. Bruckner was certainly fond of quoting him, most extensively in his 3rd symphony, which he dedicated to Wagner, only to go back many years later and revise it, throwing out most of the Wagner material again. Debussy apparently was known to quote Wagner as well. And then there's this: http://www.soundsandfury.com/soundsandfury/2004/07/detective_story.html Not all that much else on this particular near quote to be found on the internet - as I had to learn when I first noticed it many years ago and this article was the only thing I could find on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSM 126 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Scherzo for Motorcycle and Orchestra to me always seems to have a certain similarity to Bernstein's action writing in The Great Escape. Which also prominently features a motorcycle, though it's been to long since I've seen it to recall whether the passages I'm referring to are actually connected to the motorcycle chase.I always thought Scherzo for Motorcycle was more reminscent of Walton's Scherzo from the first Symphony.There are many more, much more striking examples showing that even JW can get his inspiration from other music. However, I don't like the tone of this thread. JW is no thief. Jason 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason 1 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Scherzo for Motorcycle and Orchestra to me always seems to have a certain similarity to Bernstein's action writing in The Great Escape. Which also prominently features a motorcycle, though it's been to long since I've seen it to recall whether the passages I'm referring to are actually connected to the motorcycle chase.I always thought Scherzo for Motorcycle was more reminscent of Walton's Scherzo from the first Symphony.There are many more, much more striking examples showing that even JW can get his inspiration from other music. However, I don't like the tone of this thread. JW is no thief.I agree. The words "steal" and "plagiarize" are both inaccurate and disrespectful.Williams has been influenced by other composers, which can be said of every composer who ever lived. No one creates in a vacuum--everyone draws on past works. A few similar notes here and there doesn't mean anyone "stole" anything. You might just as well say John Steinbeck "stole" The Grapes of Wrath because 4,000 words of his 100,000-word novel also appeared in someone else's book.The whole "he stole this, he stole that" nonsense should be relinquished--and nowhere more so than in a forum devoted to John Williams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted July 17, 2014 Author Share Posted July 17, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason 1 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Williams has been influenced by other composers, which can be said of every composer who ever lived.You can't really say that about the very first composers in human history.Now there you have me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,232 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 They were just imitating nature, the hacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted July 17, 2014 Author Share Posted July 17, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig 1,120 Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 Anyone ever noticed this one before?Universal studio theme, 1937-1946: Superman march - listen between 3:57 and 4:05: By the way, I see my "Soundalikes in Williams" thread got merged with this one, and I have to say that I strongly disagree with this decision. Posting in the current thread implies a negative connotation to two cues that simply sound alike, which is not what the point of the soundalikes thread was. And more importantly, posts should not be forced to have this connotation because, as I said before, the discussions get sidetracked as to what is plagiarism versus homage versus temp-track emulation, etc.I hereby petition to have this thread once again claim its independence and not be ruled by the corrupt republic of plagiarism! Glóin the Dark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,266 Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 You are mistaken. Your thread was not merged into this one.Your thread is right herehttp://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=24604 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig 1,120 Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 My apologies, Jay! I typed in "soundalikes" and me as author into our search engine and came up with nothing but this thread because my thread is titled "Soundalike cues in Williams". Apparently the engine doesn't recognize adding an "s" to words. Strange.Anyway, has there been any discussion of this similarity before? Or are there others who have noticed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted April 30, 2015 Author Share Posted April 30, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 Please leave the moderating to the moderators Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted April 30, 2015 Author Share Posted April 30, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig 1,120 Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 Sorry, BloodBoal. It's not your thread I'm against, it's the sidetracked conversation. No offence! I'm re-posting in the Soundalike thread where I intended in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 Sorry, BloodBoal. It's not your thread I'm against, it's the sidetracked conversation.Thor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig 1,120 Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 Sorry, BloodBoal. It's not your thread I'm against, it's the sidetracked conversation.Thor?No, I was going for more the old-man-trying-to-return-soup-at-a-deli persona. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balahkay 627 Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 Anyone ever noticed this one before?Universal studio theme, 1937-1946: Superman march - listen between 3:57 and 4:05: By the way, I see my "Soundalikes in Williams" thread got merged with this one, and I have to say that I strongly disagree with this decision. Posting in the current thread implies a negative connotation to two cues that simply sound alike, which is not what the point of the soundalikes thread was. And more importantly, posts should not be forced to have this connotation because, as I said before, the discussions get sidetracked as to what is plagiarism versus homage versus temp-track emulation, etc.I hereby petition to have this thread once again claim its independence and not be ruled by the corrupt republic of plagiarism!I've seen this similarity posted somewhere... I saw it either on YouTube or someone mentioned it over at FSM. I believe someone else posted another early piece similar to the Superman march. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 Horner's Universal fanfare is better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyy38 21 Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 I don't even need to say which JW score this references to. Temp tracking perhaps, but it's still shameful. Another one that is obvious. Again, probably just temp-tracking.One thing I wonder, is that directors cannot all be great fans of classical music or soundtrack music. Temp-tracking is done by whom exactly? Often I wonder if temp-tracking is not done by the composer themselves from time to time.I think if composers are looking to write in a certain style, they refer to music that has the most to do with what they are trying to achieve. They wont pull the record for the purposes of temping-rather they refer to it as often as they need to in order to fill a "particular order" as it were. Not so much in terms of the melody but rather what they want to overall, stylistic impact to be.And as shown by your examples above, the two pieces of music don't even have to share the same genre. A Science Fiction piece could well serve as inspiration for a Biographical Drama, for instance. And the whole thing might not serve as inspiration-it could be just a certain section that enables a composer to get where he's going.One time, I used the pedal tones from the "B" part of the Battlestar:Galactica Main Theme to help me figure out what kind of pedal tones I needed for a James Dean spec theme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 a James Dean spec theme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,232 Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pixie_twinkle 48 Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 2:30 into this:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMwz4mbYC4ghttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsReWx9XdNsRound Up from The Man Who Loved Cat Dancing is clearly based on Hoedown from Rodeo by Copland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muad'Dib 1,800 Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 Anyone familiar with Britten's Requiem? Apparently a friend of mine who's on my choir said there's a section that sounds a lot like Jurassic Park. Anyone have any idea what section it could be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Mr. Big 4,639 Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 My high school band director said there was a section in Farandole that "inspired" John Williams' Superman score but I never heard the similarities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loert 2,509 Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Anyone familiar with Britten's Requiem? Apparently a friend of mine who's on my choir said there's a section that sounds a lot like Jurassic Park. Anyone have any idea what section it could be?Huh, I was listening to it a few weeks ago but nothing stood out. I'll have a look at the score tomorrow and try to find something!There are a few "stylistic" similarities between JW's Star Wars score and Bax's Symphony No.2:Compare this with thisCompare this with this Jilal 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrbellamy 6,270 Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 I wonder what he'll rip off for Force Awakens! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loert 2,509 Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 After having listened to Britten's War Requiem I can't find any obvious similarities to Jurassic Park. The closest I can find is this section (start from 48:38), where the melodic contour is similar to the "Oh wow there are dinosaurs here" theme. The harmonies and rhythm are all different though, so...I definitely wouldn't call it plagiarism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muad'Dib 1,800 Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 That must be it! I figured it wouldn't be so obvious, but it's still a nice find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loert 2,509 Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 Compare this (0:09, Imperial March melody) to this (2:14) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loert 2,509 Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 A cheeky little reference:Compare this (listen to trumpets from around 0:56) to this (4:18). It's even in the same key! publicist 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 Hehe. I knew this had a point of reference but i was looking in the wrong geographical place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Tasker 21 Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 Original: Williams: Original: Williams: Fine! Here's some "plagiarism" I found: "The Exalted Sacrifice" from Le Sacre Du Printempshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9Q0lzInidIand"The Dune Sea of Tatooine/Jawa Sandcrawler" from Star Warshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iISxAhvv3tsPersonally, I find the Exalted Sacrifice to be more suspensful and torturous in terms of emotion, truer to a desert atmsophere.Ehhhhh. If you really want to see Stravinski get it hard, look no further than Trevor Jones.Original: Trevor Jones: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyy38 21 Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Anyone familiar with Britten's Requiem? Apparently a friend of mine who's on my choir said there's a section that sounds a lot like Jurassic Park. Anyone have any idea what section it could be?My mother was able to suss out the fact that THE PATRIOT Theme was recycled from JURASSIC PARK. Oh yeah!THE IMPERIAL MARCH ( Darth Vader's Theme) has NOTHING to do with MARS:THE BRINGER OF WAR.( Try listening to the overture from Swan Lake)Go back one movie earlier, you know, when that giant Star Destroyer's underside is on display, and listen again!And if you STILL don't get it, I can't help you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheUlyssesian 2,473 Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Thieving Magpie most certainly inspired Aunt Marge's Waltz. Though its not a complete lift Williams weaves his own new theme into. But even after inspiration, Marge is an absolutely virtuoso piece. I'd wager nobody today in cinema composing could write its equal whether lifted or not.But here's the bigger concern - the piece is so dense, so viruoso, such a tour de force of orchestral writing and playing and tempo... that ... is absolutely unfit for a narrative film and is far more suited to the concert hall. The piece is absolutely and utterly inappropriate for the scene it is scoring, and frankly the density and construction of the music cannot even be appreciated in the cinema. This was just Williams showing off. He wrote a piece like this because he could, not because the scene needed it. And no director was going to turn down having THIS piece in the score, so they tacked it onto the scene but it does not really fit.But it remains a dazzling piece of music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,713 Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Thieving Magpie most certainly inspired Aunt Marge's Waltz. Though its not a complete lift Williams weaves his own new theme into. But even after inspiration, Marge is an absolutely virtuoso piece. I'd wager nobody today in cinema composing could write its equal whether lifted or not.But here's the bigger concern - the piece is so dense, so viruoso, such a tour de force of orchestral writing and playing and tempo... that ... is absolutely unfit for a narrative film and is far more suited to the concert hall. The piece is absolutely and utterly inappropriate for the scene it is scoring, and frankly the density and construction of the music cannot even be appreciated in the cinema. This was just Williams showing off. He wrote a piece like this because he could, not because the scene needed it. And no director was going to turn down having THIS piece in the score, so they tacked it onto the scene but it does not really fit.But it remains a dazzling piece of music. It was also there because of the temp track love of the director, who obviously slapped that piece of Rossini in and suggested JW writes something similar. Certainly not the first time this has happened. Cuaron says this basically in the liner notes and I remember seeing a documentary of the film prior to its release where the scene is scored with The Thieving Magpie.I still can't hear direct melodic lift, only the style and form of a waltz and a playful mood where you can trace the "inspiration" and the allusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Isn't a loving tribute totally wrong in here? Reminds me of those silly FSM threads where a lot of posters simply lack any musical education and cry wolf even at the most obvious road signs crying out 'I'm a wink to [insertclassicalsource]". Is 'Home Alone' a theft (it's clearly referencing several dances from Tchaikovsky's 'Nutcracker') because in this day and age it is totally preposterous to assume that people know this famous classical work? It boggles the mind a bit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muad'Dib 1,800 Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Anyone familiar with Britten's Requiem? Apparently a friend of mine who's on my choir said there's a section that sounds a lot like Jurassic Park. Anyone have any idea what section it could be?My mother was able to suss out the fact that THE PATRIOT Theme was recycled from JURASSIC PARK. Oh yeah!THE IMPERIAL MARCH ( Darth Vader's Theme) has NOTHING to do with MARS:THE BRINGER OF WAR.( Try listening to the overture from Swan Lake)Go back one movie earlier, you know, when that giant Star Destroyer's underside is on display, and listen again!And if you STILL don't get it, I can't help you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted December 8, 2015 Author Share Posted December 8, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,232 Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Even that is far fetched. It's no more than the big chords at the beginning of Star Wars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted December 8, 2015 Author Share Posted December 8, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jilal 569 Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Oh the hypocrisy! Star Wars is derivative, comparing Zimmer's The Battle to Holst's Mars is far fetched! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Tasker 21 Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Original: John Williams: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jilal 569 Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Hmm. No, not really. I think part of the 49th Parallel cue is written in the same key as Hymn to the Fallen (I don't have perfect pitch though, so I'm not sure), which is probably what causes you to recognize the latter in it, or the other way around.The Williams cue is superb, though, I've listened to it countless times this week. Deeply moving.The chord at 3:36 in Hymn to the Fallen corresponds to the one at 0:57 in the 49th Parallel cue, I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 It's not similar. It just confirms how great RVW was (a confirmation not needed). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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